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Spirituality and Prosperity
    #3270071 -

Ah, yes. The saying "Money doesn't buy happiness" is the quote that I'd like to dissect here.

Money doesn't buy happiness. Most people would agree with this. What money does buy is time and freedom to do what you want to make yourself happy.

How many parents would prefer to be more involved in their kids lives, but are working 2 jobs in the rat race and only see thier kids at night and some on weekends?

Money is a thought-form. It is a symbol of energy, and as such, it has no real, intrinsic value. It is neither good nor bad, positive nor negative. It is impartial. The guy who wrote that "money is the root of all evil" just flat out didn't have any! You can't make it through the physical plane without it. And whereas sometimes the love of money can cause people to become evil and wierd, it is a fact that without money you cannot be free. Poverty is restriction, and, as such, it is the greatest injustice you can perpetrate upon yourself.

By the bye - and nothing to do with the topic - I think any guru who doesn't have a Rolls Royce is a scumbag. As we plod along our quest to become strong, we need symbols, symbols that are larger than life. How can you get worked up over some scrawny twit in a loincloth, wobbling about on a bycicle? To make it, you have to set your sights big. The guru should symbolize "making it in life." If you follow some potless idiot, you'll tend to adjust your aspirations downwards so that you don't race ahead of your spiritual leader. Instead of making it, you'll wind up with a puncture repair shop in the back streets of Karachi. Forget it! I want my guru to be fat, rich, and happy.

Anyway, back on topic. I believe that in life we are all on a quest. You may not necessarilly describe your life in those terms, but I believe we are here to understand ourselves: that means physical body, intellect, emotions, spirituality, sexuality, love, motherhood, fatherhood, and cash. You have to have it - otherwise the tail wags the dog.

In my humble opinion, I believe being poor in this world today, particularly if you live in a western democracy, is like starving to death while locked in a bakery. It's proposterous! Forget it!

People people believe that money is NOT a spiritual concept. Of course, I believe this is absurd. This is because, especially in the olden days, the major religions taught that poverty was holy and that wealth was not. Years ago, when all the major religions were getting started, society was made up of kings, the landed gentry, and then everybody else. The religions needed members to survive, so they naturally had to appeal to the common folk, most of whom were desperately poor. In order to win the affection of the masses, poverty had to be made okay - better than okay. The poor would ask, "Hey, how come your God lets me starve?" There was no decent answer to that. So the religions promised the poor a special place in heaven, which was a bit simpler than trying to figure out how to fix everyone's desperate circumstance.

Understand that, for the most part, all the things you were taught as true, that you hold to so dearly in your consciousness, are probably two-thirds of four-fifths ludricous.

Any questions? Comments? Pick up that pile of plastic that you call your "phone" and dial 1-800-Get-Real.


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Edited by Lord_of_Fungus (10/24/04 01:11 AM)

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: Lord_of_Fungus]
    #3270241 -

I don't like to have too much money; I'm happier that way. No attachements, nothing to worry over.


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Nothing is sacred!
Life is tough--thick-skinned--impenetrable--so that it can function--work--create--dance--live!

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3270869 -

Money is NOT necessary like you said. We tend to make it appear necessary by introducing many pleasures and then attaching them to needing money. Are animals happier when they find money on the ground?

I agree that money itself is neutral, as it is the concept of it existing within humans' minds that add its value and not the material properties of it itself.

And I agree then that it obviously is not evil or anything. If you crave money, then you can either seek money to be happy or seek a crave of no money to be happy.

But your stance of money's importance is one that holds true for you, just as the opposite holds true for some.

A person who needs money to be happy has to then "suffer" (according to most :wink:) in a job working to get the money. A person without the desire for money or material possessions money can bring, needs to do nothing. It's not being a 'bum' like society tries to condition us to believe, to keep us on the 'rat race' like you said. It's the truth :smile:


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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: deff]
    #3270887 -

"I don't like to have too much money; I'm happier that way. No attachements, nothing to worry over."

That is complete bullshit. Try raising children with no money, and government assistance is not an option as I believe in being my own person. Having money also allows us to enjoy many things in life we otherwise would not. I am a computer geek; I love having an awesomely powerful computer custom built by myself. In fact I have 4 such machines; one is a dual CPU sytem. I don't need these, but they engage my creativity. I also like having a nice car so I can travel. That is definitely a good freedom. I maintain that I am more free than people not "tied down" with a job. Anyway all you guys here got computers...this talk of condemning materialism as spiritually unpure is hypocrisy in the light of this. If you don't work then you bum off of others and being a bum is a suck ass life. I have lived in poverty with children before. I made 3.50 an hour and lived in a 2 bedroom rathole with a wife and 3 kids. I was happy as my happiness is NOT dependant on money, but it sure is easier with a 35-40K+ income...and a hell of a lot more fun. One should not center their life on material possesions because these things cannot be depended on as unchanging...they are fleeting, but one should not reject them either, paricuclarly a bunch of spoiled people with no real concept of poverty. Sorry Deff I replied to the wrong post I was referencing the phoenix here.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (10/24/04 09:14 AM)

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3270917 -

No condemn for materialism.

Rather, an emphasis on spiritualism.

The two can be mutual, but often this is in denial of one's fixations on material possessions above all else, while still longing for the status of a spiritual lifestyle.

To me, they overlap, and the one which holds your biggest emphasis in this life should be held much higher than the other.

Multi-tasking doesn't work on opposites :smile:


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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: deff]
    #3270919 -

I was relying to phoenix, so sorry. I agree with your statement, but this new forum setup messes me up sometimes.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3270923 -

S'alright :smile:

Mine was a sort of a general response anyways


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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: Lord_of_Fungus]
    #3271032 -

Over time and experience, I can veritably arrive at the predication that when it comes to spirituality and prosperity, health and wealth, there is some confliction between the two polarities in some groups of people. It is this confliction that I would like to bring forth to light.
Here I will show the stance on such matters. Personally, I align myself with both aspects of living Life to the best of my conscious ability. So I don?t exclude one and only adhere to another.
Spirituality is about internal action, whereas prosperity is about external action. Certainly I feel I should make smart, wise and fruitful choices spiritually, just as much as I should make smart, wise and fruitful choices on what I do or create with the money that I earn. Practicing spirituality in such efficacious manners will create intrinsic abundance and freedom, and practicing financial matters in such efficient manners will create external abundance and freedom ? to which ever degree that your unique circumstantial factors permit. In other words, spirituality without prosperity is oblique, and prosperity without spirituality is empty. As with all things, a healthy balance is the key.

Furthermore, I?d like to add that happiness depends on conditions being perceived as positive; inner peace does not.
Inner peace arises from within.. and beyond the mind.
So yes, money does in fact, create happiness. What it doesn?t create, is inner peace and joy. It is completely possible to be unhappy, yet at the same time, feel inner contentment. What determines this is the inner-resistance [or rather lack thereof] one has to the situation at hand.
For instance, at the event of a loved one?s death, one will most certainly be unhappy. But they can also feel at peace within themselves.

The common [egoic] dysfunction lies in the misidentification with the egoic self, which leads to setting egoic goals. This identification with the time-bound illusionary self usually leads to the inability to be satisfied with the present moment [which is all there ever is] and constant escapism in forms of seeking future salvation. This dissatisfaction with what you have got, or even frustration or anger about your present lack, may motivate you to become rich, but even if you do make millions, you will continue to feel unfulfilled. You may have many exciting experiences that money can buy, but they will come and go and always leave you with an empty feeling and the need for further physical or psychological gratification. This all stems from deficiency cognition, which is the inherent nature of the egoic self. Most people live in a state of constant deficiency, and as a result much of their relationships, goals, and life-circumstances remain deeply dysfunctional and flawed? and they are often only unconsciously aware of this, yet this knowing will show up in their actions that are driven by two primary-root factors: Desire and Fear. Both are egoic.

When one evolves out of a state of deficiency, and into a state of wholeness, which is rooted not in ego but in being, only then will they truly experience internal contentment with the external situation at hand, be it wealth or poverty. When one is no longer identified with their time-bound mind, and realizes themselves as the awareness or space in which all things take place, the self that has nothing to do with past or future; as soon as one honors the present moment, all unhappiness and struggle dissolve, and life begins to flow with joy and ease. In the absence of the illusion of time, your sense of self is derived from Being, not from your personal past. Therefore, the psychological need to become anything other than who you already are is no longer there. In the world, on the level of your life-situation, you may indeed become wealthy, knowledgeable, successful, free of this or that, but in the deeper dimension of Being you are complete and whole now.

I'll finally wrap this up with the following quote by Vernon Howard, in hopes everyone will see the lucidity and relative importance of it in respect to the subject discussed here:

"How do we find facts?

Dare to live without opinions. At first, you feel jittery
like an invalid abandoning his cane, but, later, quietness
sets in. The test of whether you really see a fact about
life is this: When clearly seen, you feel a great sense
of relief."




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: deff]
    #3271039 -

i do know people who feel more liberated without money. it means less responsibilities. i think its a weak ideal though, just trying to escape a life of responsibility, some people can't deal with stress. weakness, whatever.

i do think however that the Lord of Fungus went a bit too far with money. I don't want my guru driving a rolls royce. While money is good, wasting it is not. It's good to find peace in things without money, and still have money to achieve certain other goals. Money does not bring internal peace, unless your inner peace depends on other things (through connectedness to other people perhaps), and you need money to achieve these goals.


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/opinion
.sean

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3271123 -

Well, that I'm happier isn't bullshit, it's a fact I observe everyday through first-hand experience. However, different situations call for different necessary base monetary levels. For example, I don't want "too" much money in that I don't want more than the essentials like food, shelter, etc. But I do need these essentials and the money attached thereon.

For you, maybe it's different. If you have children then you need to buy twice as many essentials. Just like, for somebody else living in a remote area, a car is necessary to get to work everyday (though I maintain a bicycle would be better :smile:). But I certainly don't need the internet. It's offered to me so I use it now, but I could just as easily do something else.

Perhaps one day I will live a solitary life of subsistance completely removed from the need for money. Until that day, though, I do recquire a certain, base amount.

SkorpivoMusterion, very nice post.

Entiformatie, indeed, I am weak.


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Nothing is sacred!
Life is tough--thick-skinned--impenetrable--so that it can function--work--create--dance--live!

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3271137 -

"It's offered to me so I use it now"

So someone else pays for it? No wonder you don't need money...you live off of others perhaps?

"Perhaps one day I will live a solitary life of subsistance completely removed from the need for money. Until that day, though, I do recquire a certain, base amount."

Read Jon Krakauer's excellant book "Into the Wild" and you will see the fallacy of this mode of thought.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3271172 -

I also notice a trend with discussions like these.

You have people who have made the choice to work their whole lives while accumulating wealth, which they then spend on whatever interests them and they are happy. There's nothing 'wrong' with this lifestyle at all. But then, when discussions like these come up, these same people almost instinctually lash out against people who hold differing ideals about money. Suddenly the assumption is that people who do not value material possessions must be 'freeloaders' of our society, or be complete worthless bums. Funny how much a person's worth is measured by their lust for money, hmm.

A common argument arises that money is some quintessential necessity since "everyone" else in our "society" values it as such. We somehow cannot get shelter or food without it (lies :smile:) and a life without money is automatically a life void of pleasure.

I will say the opposite, that a life seeking money is a life void of true happiness of the moment. Of course, this can only be applied to my subjective observations, so I do not depart this on everyone else like it is some absolute fact, and if they do not accept it they must be in denial.

Why is it that the people who made the choice towards accumulating illusionary possessions feel so harsh about those who did not? Is it that they cannot believe people can actually free themselves from the desires of money, or is it something else? It's interesting to observe, as a friendly discussion about this usually brings in negativity due to these opposing values, and more times than not this negativity is brought in by those supporting materialism.

Why can't we be happy with our own choices, and be sure of them enough not to try and impose them on everyone? Does this validate our lusts, if others share them too? Does deluding one's actions as neccessary make them so?

Odd. :smile:


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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: deff]
    #3272089 -

"when discussions like these come up, these same people almost instinctually lash out against people who hold differing ideals about money"

It is not lashing out. It is realism. I would like to see anyone on this forum over 30 state that they have followed the "ideal" of being poor and living in isolation as a purposeful way of life. The only people here who express this view are young and inexperienced people who have yet to truly take responsibility for themselves. When I was 18 I had the same ideas, but I was disillusioned quickly upon becoming a father, then I realized that I should have been more focused on the ball as a young adult than I was. I don't regret this, but many could save themselves a lot of hassle. In the end I realized that my embrace of (apparent, but not real) non-materialism was just an excuse for being lazy and wasting my time laying up stoned or drunk, not thinking of the next day even, let alone the rest of my life. I have recovered some of that in my middle years. My children (in high school) are all intent on persuing college degrees after high school and have that focus that I myself lacked. Anyway, when someone wants to have a discussion here or disagree someone always accuses them of "lashing out". WTF are these boards for.

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3272374 -

>> The only people here who express this view are young and
>>inexperienced people who have yet to truly take responsibility for
>>themselves.

Dont over-generalize.

>> but I was disillusioned quickly upon becoming a father

If I had kids I'd consider your advice.. IT seems as
you managed to make the conscious connection to nuture, teach, and raise your children (and not get stoned) I applaud you. It is a wise choice.

However, a person can still hold the ideals of non-materialism and
raise a family, hold a job, run a company, etc. Many examples
run through my mind. However, how people regard money is a different story.

If money has spiritual value for you, then
you have totemized a item loaded with negative energy, and which exists for one purpose; to seperate. The constant need to
secure more, and then doing so, gives some people wildly
ecstatic feelings (much like addiction). Addiction (imo) cannot
lead to a spirtually successful person.

If you regard money as a one would a pile of garbage, important
because of its purpose but unimportant because of its true nature,
then you have grasped a different context.

I do not believe we are
arguing on "how to raise a family," nor "how to do it and have the
things you want," but rather the concept of spritual attachment to money; which I believe is a farce, and if anything an entity created by the "monetarily succesful" of each generation.

I work, I use money, I try not to save but in context,
and I live frugariously. This life might not be like that of any
other man, but it is mine and it holds great value for me.

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: FiddleMyDiddle]
    #3272381 -

simply put, money doesnt buy happiness, but it certainly buys lots of things that make me happy.

Without a deeper, more fundamental satisfaction with life and with yourself though, no amount of money will leave you fufilled.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3272420 -

well said.

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3272424 -

"but it certainly buys lots of things that make me happy."

but, how can anyone but yourself make yourself happy?


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--------------------
Disclaimer!?

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: Lord_of_Fungus]
    #3272432 -

Lord_of_Fungus said:
Ah, yes. The saying "Money doesn't buy happiness" is the quote that I'd like to dissect here.

Money doesn't buy happiness. Most people would agree with this. What money does buy is time and freedom to do what you want to make yourself happy.

so money indirectly buys happiness
Quote:
How many parents would prefer to be more involved in their kids lives, but are working 2 jobs in the rat race and only see thier kids at night and some on weekends?

many
Quote:
Money is a thought-form. It is a symbol of energy, and as such, it has no real, intrinsic value. It is neither good nor bad, positive nor negative. It is impartial. The guy who wrote that "money is the root of all evil" just flat out didn't have any! You can't make it through the physical plane without it. And whereas sometimes the love of money can cause people to become evil and wierd, it is a fact that without money you cannot be free. Poverty is restriction, and, as such, it is the greatest injustice you can perpetrate upon yourself.

he should have written, the root of money is the source of all evil
Quote:
By the bye - and nothing to do with the topic - I think any guru who doesn't have a Rolls Royce is a scumbag. As we plod along our quest to become strong, we need symbols, symbols that are larger than life. How can you get worked up over some scrawny twit in a loincloth, wobbling about on a bycicle? To make it, you have to set your sights big. The guru should symbolize "making it in life." If you follow some potless idiot, you'll tend to adjust your aspirations downwards so that you don't race ahead of your spiritual leader. Instead of making it, you'll wind up with a puncture repair shop in the back streets of Karachi. Forget it! I want my guru to be fat, rich, and happy.

i have never met anyone fat, rich and happy. health and sparcity is probly more satisfying
Quote:
Anyway, back on topic. I believe that in life we are all on a quest. You may not necessarilly describe your life in those terms, but I believe we are here to understand ourselves: that means physical body, intellect, emotions, spirituality, sexuality, love, motherhood, fatherhood, and cash. You have to have it - otherwise the tail wags the dog.

cash is not part of the physical body
Quote:
In my humble opinion, I believe being poor in this world today, particularly if you live in a western democracy, is like starving to death while locked in a bakery. It's proposterous! Forget it!

People people believe that money is NOT a spiritual concept. Of course, I believe this is absurd. This is because, especially in the olden days, the major religions taught that poverty was holy and that wealth was not. Years ago, when all the major religions were getting started, society was made up of kings, the landed gentry, and then everybody else. The religions needed members to survive, so they naturally had to appeal to the common folk, most of whom were desperately poor. In order to win the affection of the masses, poverty had to be made okay - better than okay. The poor would ask, "Hey, how come your God lets me starve?" There was no decent answer to that. So the religions promised the poor a special place in heaven, which was a bit simpler than trying to figure out how to fix everyone's desperate circumstance.

could be
Quote:
Understand that, for the most part, all the things you were taught as true, that you hold to so dearly in your consciousness, are probably two-thirds of four-fifths ludricous.

from what i can tell, the things ive been taught, while they may be diminishing in many ways to myself and the people around me. they do have a purpose, thus they arent ludicrous.
just like u said the poor were promised a place in heaven, ludicrous? or purposefull?. or both?
Quote:
Any questions? Comments? Pick up that pile of plastic that you call your "phone" and dial 1-800-Get-Real.


dont take more than you need, your only diminishing what others can have.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: Gomp]
    #3272469 -

>> but, how can anyone but yourself make yourself happy?

By rewarding yourself, with things you will find rewarding.
For some this happens relentlessly with many different objects
in the material world. They cannot let go in a sense.

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Re: Spirituality and Prosperity [Re: FiddleMyDiddle]
    #3272503 -

still, By rewarding yourself, with things you will find rewarding.
that's an reward? if your not making yourself happy, all the rewards on earth couldn't??


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Disclaimer!?

Edited by Gomp (10/24/04 06:13 PM)

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