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what's the difference between spirituality and philosophy?
    #4809487 -

what's the difference between spirituality in philosophy?
what's your opinion? whats your guess?

(disclaimer: i'm not looking for definitive answer, and i'm not digging on the forum split, since personally i don't mind it)


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Re: what's the difference between spirituality and philosophy? [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4809764 -

Spirituality is to me living with a certain understanding in compassion...wisdom would be the word... acting, speaking, and being in general with a certain mindfullness.

Philosophy to me is understanding why things are they way they are and work the way they work.

just my 2 cents


--------------------
"Im a dreamin man
yes thats my problem
I cant tell when im
not being real"

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Re: what's the difference between spirituality and philosophy? [Re: MellowMood]
    #4809904 -

i see philosophy as more of an intelleuctual pursuit while one need not have a complex intellectual understanding to be spiritual. for example if you've read the Tao of pooh:

While Eeyore Frets...
And Piglet Hesitates...
And Rabbit Calculates...
And Owl Pontificates...
Pooh Just Is.

philosophy has a lot more to do with arguments while in my opinion spiritually has more to do with the silence that persists when arguments are finished. spirituality has more to do with personal growth on all levels while philosophy focuses mainly on intellectual growth and understanding.

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Re: what's the difference between spirituality and philosophy? [Re: crunchytoast] * 1
    #4810333 -

Not all philosophy is spiritual, and not all spirituality is philosophical.

Spirituality, for it to be authentic, must constellate around some tradition. That tradition is usually derived from the religious experience of its founder. People are capable of drawing similar or parallel aspects of more than one tradition, but totally dissonant traditions are difficult to reconcile. For example, on the surface of things, it is difficult (not impossible) to reconcile the Hindu Atman with the Buddhist Anatman (Anatta) traditions. On a deeper level, one can find an identity beneath (or above) the dissonance, but the tool for finding this is philosophy - specifically, the school of Phenomenology. Much common spirituality is the adoption of certain traditional myths for the guidance of one's life - inner and outer, and such adoption is not subjected to rigorous philosophical investigation. It is simple faith (which does work on some level for many people).

Philosophies can be built around different kinds of metaphysics (the branch of philosophy that asks the question: 'what is ultimately Real?'). Indeed, philosophies can be based on materialism, on the philosophy of mind or on transcendental (spiritual) bases. There is a whole category of worldly philosophers whose schools just ouright deny any reality besides the one known by the senses, and understood with the power of reason. Psychologist B.F. Skinner even denied the existence of mind in his philosophy. The Enlightenment and Utilitarian philosophies are devoid of transcendental (spiritual) metaphysics.

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Re: what's the difference between spirituality and philosophy? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4814899 -

indeed, the philosophical is a project where we calculate the answers ahead of time, so that our challenge is not to rely on the outcome it brings, but it's process. So we really need to ask ourselves, what point of view would be useful? And if nothing comes to mind, just pick your least favorite

From here is a free rant: read if u like. but remember- you can't unread!



At any moment we have the ability to be inspired- we need to learn how to stand out of the way of our broadcasts within. A philosophy that breeds creative tasks, is the state We and our children need to be exposed too- allowing blood flow to the brain, learning the philosophy of neurons firing is enough to excite your spirit.. letting the rustic breathing dragon of worldly stereotypes speak it's peace, taking what you will from it- When creativity talks to me, it says i have to look in many places at once to see where it is coming from, and where it will be going. I call this: letting abstractions transform from distraction to reaction. . Just occurring, to just be- as was said about pooh..... good analogy~

Look towards a philosophy that benefits many,
it's usefulness depends on it's fluctuation rate in the practice of a system- take:
Equal Health Care Systems
Planed Parent Hood
Drugs in the Music
systems are set up through a philosophy of usefulness,
a common philosophy then is our spirituality
We communicate to each other without knowing it most of the time
But it's our right to be here, our common bond with spirit and matter
Humanities roots are composed of many different perspectives. Many have ruled for long years. And their power is wavering, because we are relying less and less on the views of religious body. We are learning to learn how to treat out body as temple. it is this generations responsibility to reroute all those ancient philosophical systems and divide power. our task is to reform the philosophies of self respect and the respect of others- future philosophies will branch from this notion of world respect. our current world philosophies will be reveled, their original intension's unmasked. So we wont be afraid to be the Drag-queens of Unpolished Philosophies and cooky flows of creativity-- we will be transforming our philosophies as continuously as our abstract interpretations of it.


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Re: what's the difference between spirituality and philosophy? [Re: TheQueen]
    #4814954 -

(Please disregard this speculation...Icelander's last post was on 10/4 but he rated you on 10/14 before your 2nd post...so icelander is lurking, perhaps to re-emerge as...(the queen fly's many times...hmmm)

I hope this isn't a reflection on Veritas; that Veritas was actualy posting as Icelander all along. Tell me it aint so Veritas.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

Edited by Booby (10/17/05 07:09 PM)

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Re: what's the difference between spirituality and philosophy? [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4815121 -

crunchytoast said:
what's the difference between spirituality in philosophy?
what's your opinion?  whats your guess?

(disclaimer: I'm not looking for definitive answer, and I'm not digging on the forum split, since personally i don't mind it)




philosophy = pursuing, going after....


spirituality = being, having gotten...


:grin: :thumbup:


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: what's the difference between spirituality and philosophy? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4815548 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Not all philosophy is spiritual, and not all spirituality is philosophical.

Spirituality, for it to be authentic, must constellate around some tradition. That tradition is usually derived from the religious experience of its founder. People are capable of drawing similar or parallel aspects of more than one tradition, but totally dissonant traditions are difficult to reconcile. For example, on the surface of things, it is difficult (not impossible) to reconcile the Hindu Atman with the Buddhist Anatman (Anatta) traditions. On a deeper level, one can find an identity beneath (or above) the dissonance, but the tool for finding this is philosophy - specifically, the school of Phenomenology. Much common spirituality is the adoption of certain traditional myths for the guidance of one's life - inner and outer, and such adoption is not subjected to rigorous philosophical investigation. It is simple faith (which does work on some level for many people).

Philosophies can be built around different kinds of metaphysics (the branch of philosophy that asks the question: 'what is ultimately Real?'). Indeed, philosophies can be based on materialism, on the philosophy of mind or on transcendental (spiritual) bases. There is a whole category of worldly philosophers whose schools just ouright deny any reality besides the one known by the senses, and understood with the power of reason. Psychologist B.F. Skinner even denied the existence of mind in his philosophy. The Enlightenment and Utilitarian philosophies are devoid of transcendental (spiritual) metaphysics.


I strongly disagree
tradition and spirituality mix only where you have the blind leading the blind - sharing clues and reviewing the tracks of those who have gone before.

personal spirituality seems to be the authentic spirituality - it is the individual's personal journey - with or without assistance it is already taking place.
the existence of help from those who have gone before remains optional and has varying potential to mesh with the already turning wheels.

MarkTheGnostic is making the traces of those who have gone before more important than the personal path, the symbols more magical than the on-going experience, the shell which can be left behind more vital than the creature that goes within.

then this personal experiment, which each one of our lives actually is, is demoted to philosophical pursuit.

Oddly separating the two (S from P) invests emphasis and power innapropriately.

if there is a stature or power to seize, let that battle rage on, meantime, for seekers the dust of tradition can best be separated from its gems with sharp analytics and fresh personal interest and a renewed sense of discovery.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: what's the difference between spirituality and philosophy? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4816876 -

Symbols are the only living things that are capable of conveying religious experience. Feel free to disagree, but without symbol there is no communication between human beings. If you want to revel in your experience, that is your prerogative, but you will be unable to communicate it. A symbol is neither "shell" or "dust," but a living reality which represents the "on-going experience" and part of genuine religious experience is to communicate on the horizontal axis of separate beings one's vertical axis of experience between subject and Divine Object. It is the Universal in the individal and indiosyncratic that matters most to me inasmuch as the individual aspects are the perishable aspects.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: what's the difference between spirituality and philosophy? throwing more curves [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4817083 -

communication is certainly benefitted symbolic exchange, but the gist of the previous post was not in support of the value of symbols, it was declarative of the emminence of sages and the requisite tradition they have bequeathed. (is it truly requisite, and do those symbols still actually mean what they were engendered for?)

many who have independently realized anything have some casual comfort with certain "religious" symbols but still may not feel any charm with others, and the traditions are often constraining codex(es) instead of liberating milestones.

oddly the cross inspires the fewest who have not endured the dogma; as a symbol it is most tightly related to radius and tangent or intersecting circles = microcosmically very nicely squared. In the big picture, however, it is all about curves and that is much closer to what life throws us.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: what's the difference between spirituality and philosophy? throwing more curves [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4817318 -

For me,

Philosophy is about how I think my way through life and spirituality is about how I feel my way through life.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: what's the difference between spirituality and philosophy? throwing more curves [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4817347 -

I'll say this by way of example: the Gnostics of old were considered to be a '5th column' by the orthodox Christians - a true enemy. Why? Because the Gnostics used the same visual symbols, recited the same verbal formulas and followed the same rites and rituals as the orthodox, yet they were understood to hold completely different inner values about all of these outward signs. In the face of it all, the majority has no more held a monopoly on Truth than 'might makes right.'

I entered Christendom from without, from Judaism, causing many whom I left to forsake me, and I entered wholeheartedly. I entered into the orthodox frame of reference and remained among Catholics and Protestants alike until I realized 'their' faith more deeply than they had, and THAT seemed to be unforgivable. I left the fold long ago with no religious social identity. I still have a Maslowian and adolescent need to 'belong,' yet I belong to no identifiable group. It is profoundly lonely at times - not just socially but spiritually. So I hang with Jewish sages and Christian mystics from times long past. It is among books and thoughts that I dwell and find myself the most at home, though this is not my first choice. Perhaps this is what you see, do not understand and find disagreeable.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: what's the difference between spirituality and philosophy? throwing more curves [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4817437 -

hey markos... do you think your need to belong in a larger faith group might be because you used to be part of such a group (judaism) and now are not?

i just wonder about the psychological effects of exile or excommunication....

its interesting to me because i have always been profoundly individualistic. i have no cultural back ground, no sense of history, no idea about my anscestors, i have never belonged to a church or faith group and i have tended to reject powerfully any organization that tried to assimilate me into their folds. i have always pursued and practiced truth on my own, in solitute and mostly silence, and i wouldnt have it any other way.

But i do know many jews and how strong their sense of community and cultural identity is. I can see how painfull it would be to have that and then lose it, but for me, who has never had it, i feel no pain in my solitude.

anyways, for what its worth, your not alone being alone.

*hug*

:heart:


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: what's the difference between spirituality and philosophy? throwing more curves [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4817660 -

Thanks for your interest Moonshoe. Actually, my parents were Reformed Jews, and cultural Jews at most. My mother was an atheist til her dying day and my father was a Freemason, so he had to profess belief in something. He also was responsible for founding a Jewish Temple with others, but I see it out of 1) a manifestation of the myth of Hiram Abiff in Masonry and 2) his need to be a "wheel" (to use his term for 'big shot'). I lived in an isolated part of town, with minimal Jews for years, and no Jewish friends growing up.

Aside from a yearly Passover event with my 3 male and 3 female cousins of corresponding ages and their parents, (who lived next door to each other in green and red painted mirror-image shaped houses), the 2 High Holy Days, Sunday school til I rebelled by junior high school, and my intentional failure and dropping out of Hebrew school (resulting in no Bar Mitzva), I never had a Jewish identity. In fact, it wasn't until I was baptized in a Catholic church and went to a Methodist seminary that I developed any desirable Jewish identity at all. Previously, being Jewish was a rather neurotic bundle of associations that constellated around persecution. From this rather sick identity gleaned from the parents, a certain amount of self-loathing took place. I only experienced anti-Jewish hatred once, and 36 years later, the perpetrator (in 7th grade) was wringing his drunken hands and begging my forgiveness at our 30th high school reunion.

I've been somewhat of a psychedelic saint since the 70s, and such are the people I would like to meet, but we are few and far between. 22 years in Miami and I seem to be little more than a nut-magnet. I probably missed the boat - should've moved to Berkeley or some such place. In Miami Shores, at Barry University, when I taught personality theory to grad students, there were a couple of interesting people but they were my students and that was weird being ass-kissed, so I never knew who was authentically interested. Nobody ever stayed in touch, so that's the answer. When I taught that Bill W., founder of AA took years of LSD therapy in response to Jung's personal advice to seek a religious experience, some students virtually called me a liar until I provided proof. I suppose that it's not only the place (Miami) but also the times.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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