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InvisibleIcelander
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Psychedelic dilemma
    #4480358 - 08/01/05 10:57 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

So I was walking in the hills as usual this morning and I started to wonder why some people can use psychedelics and find in them a powerful catalyst for spiritual growth and others find them anything but. Or just find something else.

I have an idea about this but would like to hear what others think before I decide weather it's worth sharing. So what do you think. Whats the big difference, or differences?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Icelander]
    #4480399 - 08/01/05 11:22 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Some people have tendancies towards spirituality and others dont?


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Icelander]
    #4480408 - 08/01/05 11:27 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

mindset. if you take the drug with a genuine desire to learn, you will learn. if you don't, you'll probably just think 'yeah, that was fun' and not much else. sometimes, even if you don't have the right mindset, you will experience things that will make you appreciate the spiritual/philosophical aspect. i know people who have used psychedelics just like any other drug, then one day they trip and something happens and they see it in a different light.

setting is also a factor; if you have an experienced guide and you're in a quiet comfortable place, it will be easier to recognise and understand what otherwise might be just a 'mindfuck'.

a poor analogy, but it might illustrate it a bit better: say you pick up a book on fractals. you might think 'ooh, pretty!' then close the book, or you could actually try and understand the maths and the patterns in the fractals.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: alsey]
    #4480447 - 08/01/05 12:04 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Have to agree with alsey here. Intent seems to be the determining factor.

Whenever I take in a substance with the intent to learn something, I learn something. When I take something just for the hell of it or just for fun, I usually don't learn anything. Also, all of my bad trips coincidentally or not have been those times when I just took drugs to have a good time.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: moog]
    #4480472 - 08/01/05 12:21 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I don't believe it to be intent. Here, try this experiment. Tonight I want you to watch a sunset and tell yourself, "I am for damn sure going to find some beauty in this!" Then report back.

I believe that whether you find meaning (or spirituality) in a trip or not is in the application of your post-trip filters and not while any specific event, thought or feeling is actually occurring.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLittleBen
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Swami]
    #4480505 - 08/01/05 12:37 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Im with Swami. My first trip I had no idea what was going to happen, my friend said take it and I did. Massive spiritual growth. I went back my second time with "Im going to pay such good attention and really get the most out this" and I ended up with the worst trip Ive had to date. So Icelander, Im not really sure what the predisposition is, but I wouldnt boil it down to intent or even personal investment.


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Gaia, as you awaken, I heal myself. As I awaken, you are healed.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Swami]
    #4480506 - 08/01/05 12:38 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I don't believe it to be intent. Here, try this experiment. Tonight I want you to watch a sunset and tell yourself, "I am for damn sure going to find some beauty in this!" Then report back.

I believe that whether you find meaning (or spirituality) in a trip or not is in the application of your post-trip filters and not while any specific event, thought or feeling is actually occurring.




Wouldn't that still be a matter of intent? As in the intent of the individual; post-trip, and not necessarily during the experience? Overall, intent to learn from the experience still determines whether or not one decides to reflect upon and integrate the experience or just forget it completely, no?

Edit: Re-read your post and decided that I misunderstood the last part... can you elaborate on what you mean by "is in the application of your post-trip filters"?


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Icelander]
    #4480527 - 08/01/05 12:49 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

To answer the original question, I believe it to be a combination of things... but intent isn't really one of them. If anything, I would actually say that intent is most likely to ruin an experience.

Intent is just 'expectation' with an element of control added in. And what does expectation beget? Disappointment.

So if you go into a trip with "intent" you're essentially saying, a) I'm going to expect things to be a certain way, and b) I'm going to try to control the situation so that things end up that way.

Any experienced user knows this is a recipe for a bad trip.

I think--simply enough--that it has to do with the simple nature of the beast.

For instance... someone who's naturally gravitated towards absorbing as much information as possible their whole life is going to do the same on a trip.

But someone who naturally gravitates towards forms of mind-numbing instead of mind-stimulus is much less likely to find what they areN'T looking for. (Of course, they may still find themselves catapulted into it by taking too large a dose, or taking the substance in an improper set/setting.)

Dig?

(my 2 cents, of course...)


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Swami]
    #4480542 - 08/01/05 12:54 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I don't believe it to be intent. Here, try this experiment. Tonight I want you to watch a sunset and tell yourself, "I am for damn sure going to find some beauty in this!" Then report back.

I believe that whether you find meaning (or spirituality) in a trip or not is in the application of your post-trip filters and not while any specific event, thought or feeling is actually occurring.




Wouldn't that still be a matter of intent? As in the intent of the individual; post-trip, and not necessarily during the experience? Overall, intent to learn from the experience still determines whether or not one decides to reflect upon and integrate the experience or just forget it completely, no?


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Icelander]
    #4480614 - 08/01/05 01:18 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

you can intend to learn without having expectations. like, i could go to a lecture without having a clue what the lecture is about, but still desire to learn from it.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Icelander]
    #4481081 - 08/01/05 03:39 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Nice.
I think, while psychedelic experiences happen, the personal(individual) settings will be presented in any way, but always pointing to spirituality in a good/bad form.
Means, if your settings are rejection and borders, laws and force, you will feel and experience them on a trip.
Often psychedelic experiences also show the way around some border-obstacles, which block the spiritual development of the human mind (what is just natural).
The perception itself will fall back, after trip, on the subjective realizations of his consciouslevel, leaving him alone to decide whether he has learned something from this :smile:
:2cents:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4481149 - 08/01/05 03:56 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I've found psychedelics to be a real fine substitute for the real spiritual thing, when the real mindset was scarce.


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...or something







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InvisibleFecalDildo
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: eve69]
    #4481823 - 08/01/05 07:04 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I think it actually has more to do with setting. Whenever I use LSD in nature for example, I learn many many things. If i were take the same drug at a party or something it would be a rather empty experience.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: NariusFractal]
    #4481977 - 08/01/05 07:34 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"Some people have tendancies towards spirituality and others dont?"

Many people the world over...including myself...have spiritual experiences without drugs.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Icelander]
    #4482011 - 08/01/05 07:40 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I tend to believe that it is a combination of things. Pre-trip filters play a role definitely, but so does intent, as well as set and setting. All of these factors have to be in place. Let's say you were a spiritually inclined person with the intent to have a spiritual trip, but you went to a rock concert. It is possible you would become caught up in the party atmosphere, and forget matters of spirit. Say you went out into the forest and tripped, but the inclination was not in place. Just as if you are missing the intent the spiritual experience could likely not happen, though many spiritual experiences are spontaneous...intent helps.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4482213 - 08/01/05 08:34 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Besides religion and meditation. What else besides psychedelics can be used as catalyst for spiritual growth? Anyone got any? :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Icelander]
    #4482315 - 08/01/05 08:51 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Besides religion and meditation. What else besides psychedelics can be used as catalyst for spiritual growth? Anyone got any? :mushroom2:




Anything and everything?


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4482389 - 08/01/05 09:04 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Right!  :grin:  I guess what I was looking for was things like psychedelics that are used deliberately to awaken oneself. Considering the fact that one isn't so awake that they can take advantage of what you just pointed out. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Icelander]
    #4482399 - 08/01/05 09:07 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Near-death-experiences seem to cause a tremendous amount of unwilled change in individuals.

Reading books is good too.


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Icelander]
    #4482417 - 08/01/05 09:13 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I look at psychedelics as a tool. The better you know how to use it more you will gain from using it. Those who go into it spiritually have enlightening experiences, those who abuse the tool to get fucked up, don't get any enlightening experiences. Just a thought.


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