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Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology
    #4420575 -

To start off with, I'd like to talk about Evolution v.s. Creationisim. I constantly hear people bickering about the two, when honestly, I don't see any reason for these two theories to conflict anyway. So let's get into this, shall we? I'll start with evolution and move on from there. Please read the whole article before making a judgement, thank you.

Evolution is the process in which a species slowly changes over time, as it reproduces, slight changes in it's genetic structure occur. These changes grow more and more significant, until the species is an entirely different creature than it was originally. The concept is simple and frankly, it's more obvious than some of you want to believe, that it is indeed, quite a bit of truth to this theory.

Let's start with something simple, an experiment you can do with a photo copier and a random picture. Take that picture and make a copy of it. Then, take the copy and make a copy of that. Repeat this process many times (30, 40, or 100 for best results). Then, take your final copy and compare it to the original picture, you'll notice that it's quite a bit different than the original. Genes work the exact same way, reproduction chemically copies DNA and uses the copy as the base for the new organisim, be it cells multiplying in your body, or bacterium floating in a lake, the concept is the same. Sexual reproduction only enhances this 'change' effect even further, allowing for an even greater degree of genetic diversity, be it a dog giving birth to a litter of puppies or a human being giving birth to a newborn child, the concept remains that certain small bits and pieces of the new organisim's genes are different from that of it's parent(s).

This factor is also the primary cause for things like cancer, many of the symptoms of aging and organ failure. As your body's cells reproduce and replace themselves, the DNA slowly degrades, minor changes occuring throughout it's helix-structure. As this effect proceeds, defects can and often do occur, often resulting in cancer, disease or some other undesirable effect.

Let's take a look of another example of evolution, right here in our own bodies. I am ofcourse, refering to the human appendix. What does the appendix do? Anyone know? No? Ofcourse not, because the appendix does NOTHING. It's just a sac of organ tissue sitting there in your body, doing nothing. If god directly created humans, he would not of had a useless body part in there now would he? Scientists have determined that the appendix was once somewhat like a crop or gullet, an organ found in various species, which had the purpose of grinding up grit and other rough substances for easier digestation. It's a left over from evolution, something that hasn't been entirely removed from our genes yet.

Obviously, evolution has some strong evidence supporting it.

Now, creationisim; In the bible, it is said that God created the world in seven days. But seven days for whom? For God? It is said that a 1000 years is but the blink of an eye for God, so a 'day' from the point of view of God is billions upon billions of years. How do you know that he didn't create life and guided it's evolution to the point it's at today. Makes some bloody sense now dosen't it? Just because evolution is a proven theory, does not mean creationisim is wrong. Now, I'm not saying creationisim is right, that's for YOU to decide, but please people look at the facts. Also, don't take the bible so damn litterally, think about it, if the bible is the word of God as it's claimed to be, it'd be from HIS point of view, not some pitiful view point of one of his creations. Taking the bible so litterally, is frankly, an insult to God in my opinion, because you're allowing your arrogance to place your own views and understanding of the world before his and that sir, goes against the teachings of the bible itself.

Now, why did god create us? Surely he has some sort of purpose for us. If not a tool to use to some end, perhaps we are his form of entertainment? Some long, billion year soap opera that he watches and laughs and cries at, amused by our stupidity and foolishness. Who's to say we aren't god's equivalent of a video game? Again, people are arrogant enough to assume that God created us out of some sort of desire to make something or to no longer be lonely. Chances are, he was just bored and decided to do something for the hell of it.

Hell, for all we know, God is actually an alien species who seeded the earth with the intent of creating a new civilization that they could one day, assimilate into their own culture or as an experiment or who knows what else. That's just it, we. don't. know. So using the theory of creationisim as a standpoint to deny scientific evidence isn't just a bad idea, it's stupid. If you're going to debate religion, consider the point of view of a surperior being before allowing your arrogance to blind you into speaking from the stand point of bad of meat and man-flesh.


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Life... what a stupid concept. Who's dumbass idea was this anyway?

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: PerfectChaos]
    #4420849 -

creationism and religion are out dated useless concepts

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: DF2K]
    #4422547 -

"A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion"

Evolution is also a religion. Really, it's all a religion. We aren't out there on the bone sites for ourselves. We believe what we read, see on the t.v. or what someone tells us. Or what we ourselves believe.

Edited by KairoAnnunaki (07/19/05 07:46 AM)

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: PerfectChaos]
    #4422564 -

Why do we exist?

Because I got lonely.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: PerfectChaos]
    #4422573 -

when honestly, I don't see any reason for these two theories to conflict anyway.

Then you don't understand them cuz they are mutually exclusive. Read some more and report back.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: PerfectChaos]
    #4422579 -

i have to go with comte and the positivists on this one - we cannot know the 'why' or the 'cause' of things. all we can do is produce the most logical explanations of 'how'. the theory of evolution is the most logical explanation of how life arose on this planet, but it doesn't tell us why things exist in the first place.

there are two types of creationism - one is the religious theistic creationism which is one massive fallacious appeal to authority. the more abstract creationism, such as that proposed by behe, is still flawed - occam's razor shows that it is less logical than the theory of evolution.

for a theory of creation to become a logical alternative to evolution, one would have to do the following:
-describe exactly what the creator is.
-describe the mechanism by which the creator creates.
-show that this more consistent with observable evidence than the theory of evolution.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: PerfectChaos]
    #4422603 -

Who's to say we aren't god's equivalent of a video game?

I live in perpetual fear of the time I call "End Game" :grin:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: PerfectChaos]
    #4422608 -

PerfectChaos said:
Evolution is the process in which a species slowly changes over time, as it reproduces, slight changes in it's genetic structure occur. These changes grow more and more significant, until the species is an entirely different creature than it was originally.


every change is just as random and insignificant as another. its the combination of many changes and the process of natural selection that eventually results in a new species.

Quote:
If god directly created humans, he would not of had a useless body part in there now would he?


why not? if one believes in god, then one can certainly believe that god can give us useless body parts if he wants to.

Quote:
In the bible, it is said that God created the world in seven days. But seven days for whom? For God? It is said that a 1000 years is but the blink of an eye for God, so a 'day' from the point of view of God is billions upon billions of years.


the word used in the original hebrew script is 'yom' which is different from other words that were translated into 'day'. 'yom' explicitly means a terrestrial day.

there's also the fact that the order of creation is different to the order of evolution. in the bible, the earth appears before the sun. fish appear before plants etc.

Quote:
Just because evolution is a proven theory


it isn't.

Quote:
Also, don't take the bible so damn litterally, think about it, if the bible is the word of God as it's claimed to be, it'd be from HIS point of view, not some pitiful view point of one of his creations. Taking the bible so litterally, is frankly, an insult to God in my opinion, because you're allowing your arrogance to place your own views and understanding of the world before his and that sir, goes against the teachings of the bible itself.


if you don't take the bible literally, how do you know what to believe and what not to believe? how do you know 'god' himself is not just a metaphor? perhaps you're not supposed to take the word 'god' literally. either treat the bible as myth/allegory, or take it literally. but don't be inconsistent and pick and choose the bits you take literally.

Quote:
If you're going to debate religion, consider the point of view of a surperior being before allowing your arrogance to blind you into speaking from the stand point of bad of meat and man-flesh.


you cannot debate religion, because it is by definition an irrational belief.

the main problem with creationism is its redundancy. the creator is an unnecesary term in the equation. let me illustrate. you have two options:

natural processes lead to what exists today.

god + natural processes lead to what exists today.

both theories end up with 'what exists today'. the 'god' term in the second one is unnecessary. it adds no new understanding; it simply adds an abstract and unintelligible term to the problem.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: PerfectChaos]
    #4422638 -

Did God create the world in seven days ? I don't think so. The bible is too easily taken for face value. It is not understood by many as being written it different times and under vastly different social circumstances. I know there are many who say that is just an excuse to be able to pick and choose from the bible what ever makes a person feel good. In other words a great deal of the bible is a metaphor or a huge parable written by God through the minds of Men. Written in a way that all might understand the underlining message throughout all time. Jesus spoke in so many parables and metaphors as to teach us this. That last line was my personal take. But, Fucknuckle you just said that the bible was written in different social circumstances and this is why it can not be taken for 100% face value. Then you said it was written so all men through time can understand the meanings. Well I did and yes it sounds like I speak from both sides of the coin. The last piece of the puzzle come from developing a relationship with God. It is his spirit that lives with in that will open your spiritual eyes and give you gifts of understanding. Godly wisdom and knowledge makes things much more clear and obvious.

At this point I leave all realm of half provable and am relying on my personal experiences and conclusions.

Evolution is real and was created by God. Evolution is the great tool, teacher so that God my and life may become as one. Life does not understand God and needed evolution to understand God. I think God is subjected to evolution as we are created in his image. It is life and God evolving towards one another. But how does God be subjected to something he created ? Same as you are subjected to pizza clogging your veins. You knew what would happen would be a perment change but you have the will to do so. God has the will to do what ever he wants. But since God is the perfect Love anything he changes or creates will be around Love. All of this around us is a gift of Love. Yes even war rape murder etc..... Free will is the gift.

Many people take the bad in this world and can't understand where the Love can be found iin it. But the fact is free will is the greatest gift of Love. Freewill is the only condition that will allow true Love. And that is what makes us Men and not beast. It is us that became life moving towards God and God towards his creation.....Life


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4422666 -

Isn't N.S. just chance though? I mean, it's just a term. It's inevitable for it to happen. So it's not chance. I mean, eventually some point in time our planet will either get destroyed by the sun or a meteor. Or itself. Is that N.S., but in another term? Negative N.S., selected to be destroyed.

Yeah but such a being wouldn't give us a useless body part. The only way I could see a higher being, physical or un-physical- to give us a useless body part is for us to figure out in the future that we could use it for something later on, through technology or something.

But yeah, Hebrew dialect is some crazy stuff. I mean really, I don't believe at all God had to "SPEAK" into existence. That was something we could only comprehend. It would make sense that one, so powerful, would not have to speak it but far much more powerful.

I believe what he means is, don't take all of it literal. I mean, you can't. "Knock on the door you shall receive". I mean, that's obvious you can't take that literal. "And God spoke it into existence". Really? And locusts swarm out of the pit with crowns of gold and faces of men? Ok, dude. I'm not going to take that literal. Revelations could represent M.E.C.H. warfare etc. Only what Paul could describe in his time. Take it literal? No. But the idea behind it can be!

The only thing that currently makes sense is this, and I will say not tell like I know it's a fact:

"God" a paradox of time etc etc, end is start- start is end. Is itself always was and has been yadda yadda. Angels were then into being. Some fell to Earth, some fell to Satan some stayed with God. The ones that fell to "Earth" which I'd like to say -this reality- are the ones known as The Annunaki. They are still part of God, but decided to neither join or stay with God, or Satan. For some odd reason, they could be here for a reason. As a test to humanity, as a test to believe this:

We were created by the Annunaki, but at the same time God created all of this. Our planet was seeded by an alien race- The Annunaki. For all we know, The Annunaki could have been here for what we could only comprehend as infinity. And after time their race had evolved into it's own many states. Like D.N.A., same thing- Natural Selection. So yes, that's how I see there can be many other races of life out there because of The Annunaki. We were seeded by them, at the same time God controlling it.

But it's just a theory. Something I have faith in, at the same time the Bible itself. But yeah, seriously though- I am going to read the Bible again when I get the time. After that then I am to study other religions.

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: KairoAnnunaki]
    #4422734 -

KairoAnnunaki said:
Isn't N.S. just chance though? I mean, it's just a term. It's inevitable for it to happen. So it's not chance. I mean, eventually some point in time our planet will either get destroyed by the sun or a meteor. Or itself. Is that N.S., but in another term? Negative N.S., selected to be destroyed.


natural selection is not 'just chance'. mutations appear to be chance (where in actual fact, there is an underlying mechanism for them; they just appear to be random because that mechanism is very complex). natural selection is the process by which creatures that are suited to their environment survive. if i put a man and a fish underwater, the fish survives and the man does not. there is no chance to that.

destruction of the planet is more of an event than an environment. if a species evolved that could survive without the planet, then that species would be naturally seleceted in the absence of the planet.

Quote:
Yeah but such a being wouldn't give us a useless body part. The only way I could see a higher being, physical or un-physical- to give us a useless body part is for us to figure out in the future that we could use it for something later on, through technology or something.


you're assuming too much about this 'higher being'.

think of an architect. he can design a house. this could be a very functional house. now, what if the architect decides to add on to the building a feature that has no function - just say, like a random pile of bricks on the roof.

the people living in the house would ask 'why is there a random pile of bricks on the house'? the answer is that the architect put it there. it would be wrong for the occupants to say 'the pile of bricks has no use, therefore the architect did not put it there'. that would be assuming too much about the architect.

Quote:
But yeah, Hebrew dialect is some crazy stuff. I mean really, I don't believe at all God had to "SPEAK" into existence. That was something we could only comprehend. It would make sense that one, so powerful, would not have to speak it but far much more powerful.


right, so hebrew is 'crazy' so we should dismiss the definitions of the words contained in it. of course not. the bible, in its original form, says everything was created in six terrestrial days. anything else that we say about this is pure speculation. all we can say for certain is what the bible says. we cannot say with certainty what it means. there are then two methods of interpretation:

-the bible should be taken literally.
-the bible should not be taken literally.

the key in both cases in consistency. if you say that the bible should not be taken literally, then you are saying that the notions of god, creation, heaven, hell, christ, everything contained in it should not be taken literally. thus if you take this stance, and say 'god exists because the bible says so', then you are contradicting yourself, because you have already said that the bible should not be taken literally.

also, if you have an omnipotent god, why can't he create the world in six days? why take billions of years over it? maybe he made it in six days, and made it so it would look like it had been around for billions of years. maybe he made it six seconds. maybe he didn't make it, maybe its just an illusion he put in our minds. maybe maybe maybe. lets drop the maybes and start with what we do know and work logically from it. what do we know about the bible? it was a book written between about 6000 and 2000 years ago. now tell, how do you get from that fact, to a certain 'god' creating the world.

Quote:
I believe what he means is, don't take all of it literal. I mean, you can't. "Knock on the door you shall receive". I mean, that's obvious you can't take that literal. "And God spoke it into existence". Really? And locusts swarm out of the pit with crowns of gold and faces of men? Ok, dude. I'm not going to take that literal. Revelations could represent M.E.C.H. warfare etc. Only what Paul could describe in his time. Take it literal? No. But the idea behind it can be!


again, once you abandon the literal meaning of one part of the bible, you must abandon it for all the bible. unless, of course, you can somehow prove which parts should and which parts shouldn't be taken literally, including the notion of god.

Quote:
"God" a paradox of time etc etc, end is start- start is end. Is itself always was and has been yadda yadda. Angels were then into being. Some fell to Earth, some fell to Satan some stayed with God. The ones that fell to "Earth" which I'd like to say -this reality- are the ones known as The Annunaki. They are still part of God, but decided to neither join or stay with God, or Satan. For some odd reason, they could be here for a reason. As a test to humanity, as a test to believe this:

We were created by the Annunaki, but at the same time God created all of this. Our planet was seeded by an alien race- The Annunaki. For all we know, The Annunaki could have been here for what we could only comprehend as infinity. And after time their race had evolved into it's own many states. Like D.N.A., same thing- Natural Selection. So yes, that's how I see there can be many other races of life out there because of The Annunaki. We were seeded by them, at the same time God controlling it.

But it's just a theory. Something I have faith in, at the same time the Bible itself. But yeah, seriously though- I am going to read the Bible again when I get the time. After that then I am to study other religions.


see what i wrote in my previous post about redundancy. a creator as a separate entity from the creation is an uncessary term in the equation.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: KairoAnnunaki]
    #4422754 -

You know you may be right. It is a very difficult thing to say what the unseen is isn't it ? The exact details of all the questions of all time. Will they ever be known ? Probably not. Besides I think once we a gone from here and the answers are laid before us what will it matter anyway. So we may never know the answers. Your ideas of space aliens are not that different from many others I have heard or thoughts I have had myself.

God's first companion he created were what the bible calls Angel's. HE gave these creatures one attribute that he did not give us. The powers of God himself. Freewill combined with the creative powers of God loosed evil. This is where the " Devil" came from. But God left one last power in his hands. The power over all creations. He created Angel's and gave them freewill and it is that decision that created evil. Not that God created evil but his first creation of companionship created evil when Lucifer decided through freewill that he could destroy God and have the universe for himself. Well that is not love is it. This work exactly the same for us. We can be evil by choice can't we ? The difference we in this world do not have the powers of the beings before us , the Angel's. We are perfect creations and able to know of God and his love. We can find him and let the love of God pour through us. It is our freewill that is the magic key. The key to God or the key to a place without God. Here and in the next.

On your last comment. God and his teaching can be found throughout out many writings. The bible is not exclusive. Mankind is a whole not a segmented few. I agree


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: PerfectChaos]
    #4422910 -

PerfectChaos said:
Why do we exist?


"There is no why, clear your mind of questions."
- Master Yoda.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4422919 -

Clear your mind of Questions!!!!!!! Then we would be a rock. I have always been amused by those tibetian priests that spend there entire life to try to find that place in there minds where there is nothing. Why would a person so complex and so completely a emotional being full of the possiabliities of Love want to be in a state of Nothing ?

Yes I am aware of who Yoda is :smile:


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4422960 -

I'll get back to you on all this. The Day After Tomorrow seems to be playing on some t.v. channels for some reason, haha. So I'm watching that, good movie.

But yeah, questions are very good.

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4422997 -

I am always amazed by the vast numbers of people who attempt to assign human motivations and emotions to all that is. It makes little sense to me to take the behavioral and emotional aspects of but one type of creature in the known universe (humans) and assume that the entire universe operates under these traits. There is no why, except in the mind of the questioner.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: PerfectChaos]
    #4423002 -

"Now, why did god create us? Surely he has some sort of purpose for us."

Why we are here is a complete mystery just as we are all mysteries unto ourselves. Our purpose, if we are to have one, must be self defined. When you yourself define your purpose and mission upon this planet, then the spirit has told you the answer you seek.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ā€• Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4423044 -

I understand where your coming from. Be see you and I base our entire system of "Why" on different things.

Is the enitre universe only created for humans ? I don't know.

But I do believe in Love and the power if it and that itself is creation. The universe is a stew pot of " Choice and the right to think as thou may wish " The very fact we are emotional beings seperates from beast. We have the choice to do as we please. Beast eats and makes little beasts. We can starve ourselfves to death by choice.

So it all get backs to choice and freewill agian. TO make the choice not to deal with freewill annd give into " No why's, No questions " is a choice isn't it

Or to say that all is in the mind of the questioner.

Is nothing more than a choice. Freewill is a gift from God.

We all make choices that is what we do.

All God wants is for us to choose Love and the purpose's of Love. So we may learn enough to hang out with a being of pefect Love.

If we make the choice to not do that. So be it


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4423059 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
"Now, why did god create us? Surely he has some sort of purpose for us."

Why we are here is a complete mystery just as we are all mysteries unto ourselves. Our purpose, if we are to have one, must be self defined. When you  yourself define your purpose and mission upon this planet, then the spirit has told you the answer you seek.


What spirit ? And if one is self defined at what point did a spirit tell you. and if the spirit told you then how is that self defined ? :eek:


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Re: Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4423084 -

The spirit is in everything. I do not prefer the term God because of what it implies. If the spirit is within myself then it will tell me my purpose.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ā€• Carlos Castaneda

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