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OfflineProsgeopax
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Registered: 01/28/05
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These THINGS are Evil
    #4212331 - 05/24/05 12:14 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Drugs are evil...
Guns are evil...
Money is the root of all evil...

Ah, not quite.

These are all inanimate objects. Is penicillin evil? Were the guns used by American soldiers to liberate Western Europe from the Nazis evil? Is money sent to Sally Struther's "Feed the Children" charity evil? How can anyone believe that these or any other non-living things can be the cause or source of evil? Evil is a value that can only come from the intentions of and actions taken by people. The actions and intent of humans manipulating objects in their environment to certain ends may be evil, but not the objects themselves.

Individuals should be assigned full responsibility for their actions and blame should be placed squarely upon the shoulders of the actors, not the objects used in their actions. To do otherwise is not treating the cause of the moral ills which threaten the well being of our fellow man. Human intent and behavior are at the root of all evil. If we are to improve our world, this is where we must start. Attempting to control the material when the source of our problem is in the realm of the spiritual/moral/cognitive will NEVER lead us to success.

So, where do we begin? First, within ourselves. Then in how we conduct ourselves as individuals helping other individuals in communicating and understanding the memes which are necessary to transform human society. Appeal to reason and appeal to humanity, it is better to get agreement than to command obedience. Coercion will not, threats will not, legislation will not, society only advances when people begin to accept the ideas and morality as their own, as part of their culture and part of their psyche.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
DivineeMotive....

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 759
Loc: The Symphony of Lights......
Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4212352 - 05/24/05 12:18 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Drugs are evil...
Guns are evil...

.
Put both of these in a vat of molten metal....  How evil are they....?


Money is the root of all evil...
.
It is the greed for money that is the root cause for evil....   
(again, you can use the vat of molten metal....)

:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4212531 - 05/24/05 01:04 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Greed is evil?

If it was not for human greed, not only would you not be here right now, the entire human species probably wouldn't.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
DivineeMotive....

Registered: 02/28/05
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
    #4212545 - 05/24/05 01:08 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Greed is evil?

If it was not for human greed, not only would you not be here right now, the entire human species probably wouldn't.




How so....?
.
(I am wondering what you said before it got edited....!?)    :lol:


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4212587 - 05/24/05 01:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

You being here is a combination of many tiny variables. If America had lost the Revolutionary War, none of us would be here, because chances are, even if your parents DID meet up and have sex (they probably wouldn't be here either), the fact that events change the entire course of people's lives. You were one sperm of hundreds of millions, so if even your dad had pumped your mom one less time, or did her a few nights later, you wouldn't be here. Another sperm out of those hundreds of millions would've taken your place, and your genetic code would be just a dormant dying cell in your mother's vagina.

As for humanity, greed is a useful trait created by natural selection. Imagine if humans didn't have greed? They gave all their food and money and possessions away to others, yet those people also gave it away, and soon all people without greed and those purely altruistic would die off. If something cataclysmic happened, it'd be those that were greedy and stockpiled many possessions that would probably survive, compared to those who only had a few items in the fridge because they donated the rest to charity.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
    #4212603 - 05/24/05 01:27 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
As for humanity, greed is a useful trait created by natural selection. Imagine if humans didn't have greed? They gave all their food and money and possessions away to others, yet those people also gave it away, and soon all people without greed and those purely altruistic would die off. If something cataclysmic happened, it'd be those that were greedy and stockpiled many possessions that would probably survive, compared to those who only had a few items in the fridge because they donated the rest to charity.



Is greed merely self-interest, or is it excessive self-interest?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Silversoul]
    #4212606 - 05/24/05 01:30 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

As long as it doesn't interfere with your reproduction, it's not excessive. Those who are greedy and reproduce will have more for them and their family. So I wouldn't say it's excessive unless they do it to the point where they can't pass their genetic material on, in which case that excess will die off.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
    #4212609 - 05/24/05 01:31 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Don't you think excess can be applied to morality as well? Surely reproduction isn't the only goal worth pursuing?


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
Now with ExtraVaganza!?
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4212610 - 05/24/05 01:31 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Women are evil.

Proof:

Women = Time x Money
Time is money, so
women = money?
Money is the root of evil, so
Women = Evil.


Yeah, I didn't make it up.


--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Silversoul]
    #4212615 - 05/24/05 01:33 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Morality is so subjective to individual people that it's much easier for me to try to look at these situations through the eyes of evolution and natural selection.

Morally, is there excess greed? That depends on your morals. If you feel it's your moral obligation to give to the poor, then yes, it's obviously greedy to fend for yourself.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
    #4212626 - 05/24/05 01:36 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Well, from an evolutionary standpoint, you may succeed in passing on your genes, but be greedy to the point that society, and therefore those who live in it, will suffer. And since humans are social creatures, such suffering would be bad for us as a species.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
DivineeMotive....

Registered: 02/28/05
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
    #4212644 - 05/24/05 01:41 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
You being here is a combination of many tiny variables. If America had lost the Revolutionary War, none of us would be here, because chances are, even if your parents DID meet up and have sex (they probably wouldn't be here either), the fact that events change the entire course of people's lives. You were one sperm of hundreds of millions, so if even your dad had pumped your mom one less time, or did her a few nights later, you wouldn't be here. Another sperm out of those hundreds of millions would've taken your place, and your genetic code would be just a dormant dying cell in your mother's vagina.
.
As for humanity, greed is a useful trait created by natural selection. Imagine if humans didn't have greed? They gave all their food and money and possessions away to others, yet those people also gave it away, and soon all people without greed and those purely altruistic would die off. If something cataclysmic happened, it'd be those that were greedy and stockpiled many possessions that would probably survive, compared to those who only had a few items in the fridge because they donated the rest to charity.



.
Well, I musta~ been a fast swimmer as a sperm, but I am sure that it wasn't greed, it was desire and determination....  :wink:    And if it was a different sperm that would have made it, I may not be sitting her enjoying you write about my mom's vagina....  :lol:
(By the way, it is her birthday tomorrow, be nice....!)  :heart:

So you've got "greed" and "stockpiling", and you have got the opposite with "giving EVERYTHING away"....  There is a happy medium between both of those, "desire"....  Either way, it is not the money or the gun or the drugs that are evil, it is the greed for those things....  It doesn't matter how we got here, not now anyways....    We are here....  Would it be better if I said,

"The greed for power is the root of all evil"....?   

We fought for freedom from England, it's taxes and government....    Look how far it got us....  It "works" reeeeeeallllllly good....    :rolleyes:


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Silversoul]
    #4212649 - 05/24/05 01:43 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Not necessarily. Let's think of greed in society from the viewpoint of natural selection:

Those who do not have enough for themselves to survive are placed in a bad situation, either by laziness, stupidity, being at the wrong place at the wrong time, etc.

Those who do have enough for themselves and give to others will put themselves genetically at a disadvantage, as they now have less for them and their family, but genetically are helping those who should rightfully die due to laziness, stupidity, etc., survive.

Those who do have enough for themselves and are greedy will have the most for themselves and their family.

It's a bit harsh, but those who do not have enough without relying on the kindness of others, by natural selection, should die out. These people are usually a minority, so those with the right traits to acquire materials and keep it, and therefore help pass on their genetic code, are the ones who survive. Greed is just a part of this, albeit not the whole thing, but still an important component to survival in our individual human nature.

As humans, we don't need everyone to survive after all, just those who are in favorable circumstances. All others will either die or not reproduce, therefore evolving the species.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4212685 - 05/24/05 01:50 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Actually, sperm don't have feelings. :smirk: As a sperm, I highly doubt you were determined like a human would be. Rather, your cell just had enough energy to propel you to the egg in front of all others.

It doesn't matter how we got here? But think, if evolution required certain essential human emotions and parts, and suddenly we as a culture try to dispose of them, what would that do to our survival? If you try to take away that which got us here, you could easily wipe yourself or a culture out because you lost the individual desire and greed that's been useful to survival.

Before you go on naming things that are possibly evil, I'll clarify that I don't believe in good and evil. The closest I think in terms of morality is there are those traits which help us as individuals and as a species survive, and there are those which hinder our individual and our species' survival.

The greed for power has helped humans through hundreds of thousands of years. Someone has to fight and kill to lead the pack, after all. Someone has to create order and peace so we don't kill each other off (completely, partially doesn't matter). The greed for power may appear negative, but it's actually helped us many times, which is why it's still with us today. If the greed to power hindered humanity, humans would be a bunch of egalitarian Christians.

And the revolution from England does work really well. The U.S. is the sole surviving superpower with the most nuclear weapons and the best army. What could be better for our country's survival?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
DivineeMotive....

Registered: 02/28/05
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
    #4212694 - 05/24/05 01:54 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Those who do have enough for themselves and give to others will put themselves genetically at a disadvantage, as they now have less for them and their family, but genetically are helping those who should rightfully die due to laziness, stupidity, etc., survive.
.
It's a bit harsh, but those who do not have enough without relying on the kindness of others, by natural selection, should die out. These people are usually a minority, so those with the right traits to acquire materials and keep it, and therefore help pass on their genetic code, are the ones who survive. Greed is just a part of this, albeit not the whole thing, but still an important component to survival in our individual human nature.
.
As humans, we don't need everyone to survive after all, just those who are in favorable circumstances. All others will either die or not reproduce, therefore evolving the species.

.
.
.
Since everything may happen by chance(depending on what you believe), what if that "poor" person has the key to genetic evolution, and we all let that person not survive because all of the rich people of the world decided that it was more important to have 20 houses instead of 19 - with enough to purchase 100 new houses on the spot....? 

What if you were that poor person that was at the wrong place at the wrong time....?


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4212705 - 05/24/05 01:57 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

No one person has the key to genetic evolution. That's why bacteria breed so rapidly, and that's why there's 6 billion humans on the planet. If evolution required the genetic material of one person, we'd have been fucked long ago.

And if I was that poor person at the wrong place at the wrong time, I'd fight to survive, but if I didn't, c'est la vie.

I'm not actually saying I wouldn't help people and that I'm greedy myself, because I'm not. But I understand why greed isn't "evil" and why it's an essential component to human survival.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
DivineeMotive....

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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
    #4212749 - 05/24/05 02:10 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

It doesn't matter how we got here? But think, if evolution required certain essential human emotions and parts, and suddenly we as a culture try to dispose of them, what would that do to our survival? If you try to take away that which got us here, you could easily wipe yourself or a culture out because you lost the individual desire and greed that's been useful to survival.
.
.
.
Again, we are here....    All that stuff happened for a reason, and was important for the times....  We now know what is on the other side of the world, and people now live everywhere on the planet....  For the most part, the boundaries are set, and for the most part, we are all connected by some sort of communication devices....   
.
Now it is a race to figure out how to keep the Earth and ourselves healthy and alive without destroying ourselves and the Earth....  It is just different times, it is here and now....  We are not exploring and figuring out how to "start things up with structure and morals", we now need to focus on how to survive together....    Weather you are political, religious, or not, the goal is to survive - and is the underlying foundation to politics, religion, and instinct....   
.
I think we have evolved as humans to feel compassion for a reason....  If it was just about greed for survival, we would not need or have compassionate feelings....    Right....?   


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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OfflineKalix
'Head

Registered: 03/20/05
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
    #4212903 - 05/24/05 03:12 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Not necessarily. Let's think of greed in society from the viewpoint of natural selection:

Those who do not have enough for themselves to survive are placed in a bad situation, either by laziness, stupidity, being at the wrong place at the wrong time, etc.

Those who do have enough for themselves and give to others will put themselves genetically at a disadvantage, as they now have less for them and their family, but genetically are helping those who should rightfully die due to laziness, stupidity, etc., survive.

Those who do have enough for themselves and are greedy will have the most for themselves and their family.

It's a bit harsh, but those who do not have enough without relying on the kindness of others, by natural selection, should die out. These people are usually a minority, so those with the right traits to acquire materials and keep it, and therefore help pass on their genetic code, are the ones who survive. Greed is just a part of this, albeit not the whole thing, but still an important component to survival in our individual human nature.

As humans, we don't need everyone to survive after all, just those who are in favorable circumstances. All others will either die or not reproduce, therefore evolving the species.




That's insane, IMHO, imagine a large carnivorous fish, in a pond. He is a huge fish, and very mean, he has a mate, and there is another pair of carnivorous fish in this pond. Less big, and mean. Also, there is a limited population of small meek fish that the carnivore fish eat. If the larger meaner fish where to be unwilling to share the population of the smaller meek fish, following your theory of evolution, he would soon kill off the population of meek fish, and everyone would die. If, he instead only ate sparingly, what he needed, then the meek fish would have time to reproduce and feed him, not to mention his species would do better, because the other carnivore fish, would be able to survive and reproduce also.
The point of not looking out for your fellow beings, to accumulate more than you need is destructive. Why should a few get fat, and let everyone else starve? It will end up hurting them too, if not right away, then down the road. After all the point of life is to reproduce...


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
DivineeMotive....

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 759
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Kalix]
    #4212932 - 05/24/05 03:35 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:  :yesnod:

We are all just big fish in a big pond.....    I like that....!  :grin:


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4213033 - 05/24/05 04:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Evil is live spelled backwards. You dig! :rastamon: :hippie: :flowerchild: :jamming: :evil:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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