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Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil"
    #920055 -

This may be a closed topic now, but I am much too lazy to search for a thread talking about this when it is on my mind right now.

When I trip, I come accross the concept of "knowledge of good and evil" and how it relates to what I have just ate. In the Bible it explains how man's fall from paradise was brought on by his disobedience. He ate from the tree of knowledge and then knew both good and evil. Where he became ashamed.... and it all went down hill from there. When I eat mushrooms I somtimes think that I have taken from this tree and it has increased my understanding. I don't feel ashamed or even that I have done somthing wrong, instead I feel as if I am realizing man's sin, and it is too late to change anything because I have already sinned.

It is almost like the only way for me to even know that I have ever done anything wrong is to do it wrong at least once so that then I know what I shouldn't do again. Does this mean partaking mushrooms is wrong?

Is there any intelligence in this? Well maybe somebody could add or subtract somthing a little more understandable.







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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: ehud]
    #920062 -

I believe this is the 20 foot cannibis "tree"....God said one plant only is forbidden...I have promised to stay away from pot....In revalations though HE said HE will give leaves that willll heal the nations......Maybe pot....


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Respect all, Fear None!
The Peacemaker

Cacti are my new life.....

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: ehud]
    #920095 -

good and evil is all perception.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: ehud]
    #920130 -

I think that the Garden of Eden story is a metaphor related to sex, or reproduction...

Maybe we were hybrid animals: part monkey, part ______ (fill in blank) :grin:  And like all hybrids, we could not reproduce... and our "creators" didn't want us to be able to reproduce, but we somehow transcended this limitation by "eating of the fruit", which pissed our creators off... but they didn't want to destroy us, so they left us on Earth to wander blindly, to evolve without interference.

And so we have evolved from our animal nature, and we have become aware of the "god-like" potential within ourselves. We have been given a gift disguised as a curse.

Eating mushrooms is not wrong, as it has the potential to bring us into awareness of this divinity, of the spark of God within. 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: Adamist]
    #920222 -

i believe this "original sin" is actually an original blessing, because it gave us free will... without the "evil" we would not be able to experience "good", or if we could, the good would not be so sweet...
and when the time comes, and we evolve to the 4th, and then 5th dimension there won't be any evil on this planet anymore, but the knowledge of evil will reside in our heads... we will know that somewhere (be it far away on other planets, or be it in the past of our on civilization) there still is the duality, and that knowledge will then be what makes the good so sweet... we will see the illusion and learn to use it, instead of beeing a slave to it


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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: ehud]
    #920257 -

Have you ever seen a photo of that ancient fresco of Adam, Eve and the Serpent which is coiled around the Tree of which you speak - in the form of a tall Amanita Muscaria?



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: ehud]
    #920619 -

Well maybe somebody could add or subtract somthing a little more understandable.


I'm not very good at math.

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: In(di)go]
    #921277 -

"...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin....the Son shall make your free..." (John 8:34-36)

Slavery to sin...how lame.

"...from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die." (Genesis 2:17)

Just as our sinful nature is inherited so is the knowledge of good and evil. Mushrooms don't provide this. They merely remind us. You didn't die did you? Or they break down the barriers we've built arround the inconsistancies in our own life, show us the good and evil we've mannaged to hide from ourself. You're eating an illegal substance. Is this evil?

"All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks?" (I Corinthians 10:23, 30)

Are you giving thanks? Is it profitable? Is it edifyiing?
These are good questions. Its ok to be this way.

Don't let people that get brainwashed by the TV tell you how to understand reality.


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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: thePatient]
    #921298 -

Hmm, perception to an extent. It all really comes down to common sense, and not good and evil. Now how can anyone really say a murderer is evil, yet taking the life of an animal ok. I am discusted with someone who would kill a human being. Would it be wrong to not think the same of someone who would kill an animal. Sure its food, but it's still killing. We cant really say what is good and evil, because no one fully understands it. Sure the cristians, and other(whats the word for it??) religions think they can bark orders of right and wrong around, but in the end, no one is perfect. Every single one has sinned. Even the saints. But there are certain things that, without a doubt, are wrong. Usually they have to do will hurting others, and no one wants to be hurt. What a difficult subject...!!!


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addicted to reason
a hollow understanding trapped me
I cannot see outside but its calling

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #922052 -



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"an immigrant from heaven on earth with a work visa"

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: Axiom420]
    #922281 -

Just folllow the ten commandments and you 'll be OK...do as you please otherwise....


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Respect all, Fear None!
The Peacemaker

Cacti are my new life.....

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: Glacius]
    #923536 -

In reply to:
how can anyone really say a murderer is evil, yet taking the life of an animal ok.


Easy... a murderer is evil, taking the life of an animal is ok.

I hold human life in higher regard than that of any other animal species, I am a human being, humans are my species, my mother is a human, my father is a human, all my siblings are humans, my wife is a human, my children are humans, every person that I have ever loved is a human. Humans are social animals, humans are physically weak animals, we would never have survived as a species if we didn't learn to cooperate and live with one another in groups. Part of being a social animal includes complying with certain behavior patterns in your group which will assure the survival of individuals and hence the species as a whole. If social animals want to thrive, it is logical that they refrain from taking the lives of their own kind who serve to help keep each other alive. Without an objective or common morality, civilized behavoir will disappear and the benefits of social organization will vanish. If we are to accept the concept of moral relativism, society will descend into anarchy and civilization will perish.

Humans are omnivores, that means we eat both vegetation and other animals, it is perfectly normal to kill another animal before eating it. This is a normal part of living, besides, meat tastes good. Pure vegetarians suffer from deficiencies that meat eaters don't, it's all part of a well balanced diet.

We need living humans to help us survive, we need to eat dead animals for a well balanced diet to help us live a healthier life. It seems perfectly natural to me.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: Evolving]
    #923597 -

Easy... a murderer is evil, taking the life of an animal is ok.

What if I had to kill and eat my friend to survive, because we were trapped in an avalanche for weeks? Would you consider me evil?


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: Adamist]
    #923623 -

In reply to:
What if I had to kill and eat my friend to survive, because we were trapped in an avalanche for weeks? Would you consider me evil?


If you 'had to kill' your friend, that would mean that it was an act of self defense (meaning he/she was attacking you). Even starving people are capable of making choices. Morality (good & evil, right & wrong) is about the choices we make, usually in regards to our fellow humans.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: Evolving]
    #928739 -

do you have to kill animals?

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: raytrace]
    #928775 -

No, I can starve to death or live on a diet which won't provide optimal nutrition. I value my life and that of my own species above that of other animals, so I will kill other animals (or have someone else kill them) and eat them. That's the way it works in the animal kingdom.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: Evolving]
    #928801 -

i don't think lacto-vegetarians suffer from malnutrition. you can have a balanced diet without eating meat. am I wrong?

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: raytrace]
    #928982 -

The bible says the father had the fatted calf killed to celebrate the return of the lost son that blew his living inheritance on whores and partying but returned home after a hard lesson....How can anyone say no meat is good???Bible says it is more than once...


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Respect all, Fear None!
The Peacemaker

Cacti are my new life.....

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: BlueJay]
    #929051 -

oh, silly me

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: raytrace]
    #929161 -

we evolved canine teeth for a reason....


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

Edited by CleverName (10/03/02 05:16 PM)

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: BlueJay]
    #931636 -

How can anyone say no meat is good???Bible says it is more than once...

Apparently the bible also says to bomb Iraq because in the future they may have the same weapons we do and to fuck little boys who are part of your congregation. BUT I don't listen to those things either.  Anybody who listens to the bible simply because it is the "bible" is a sheep.  Think for yourself just once.  JUST ONCE!

And yes I am a bit of an asshole.  :smirk: 


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: raytrace]
    #931831 -

< am I wrong?

No but you could be starting another yawner of a vegan/carnivore debate where everyone digs up all there links backing 50 different points of view on the subject and no one changes their mind.

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: raytrace]
    #932150 -

raytrace writes:

you can have a balanced diet without eating meat. am I wrong?

No, you are not wrong -- IF you have access to the necessary combinations of various plants required to provide all essential minerals, vitamins, and micronutrients. Not all humans in every location on the planet have such access, but they do in many cases have access to animal food sources -- the Inuit who live in Arctic climes, as just one example.

From a standpoint of MORALITY, it is not immoral to consume the flesh of other species in order to further one's existence.

pinky


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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: raytrace]
    #933182 -

I'm a vegitarian, and I can't eat dairy coz i'm allergic. Full out vegans can have a complete diet, its just harder.

Meat is not necessary at all, and dairy, contrary to popular belief is generally bad for the majority of the population as the protein molecules are too large for the human intestine to digest, it causes irritation.

The only issues you have to address when you chose to not eat meat is that you get enough protein and b vitamins, you have to learn about how food works so that you can plan the right combinations of amino acid source. Also, you have to make sure you're getting enough omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids, but its not only vegitarians that have issues with this. Eggs and flax are both good sources.

Its really not too hard to have a complete diet as a veg, most vegitarians i know are healthier than meat eaters simply because they know what they're doing and exactly what they need in thier system and they make sure they get it.

I chose not to eat meat, because considering where I live it's simply not necessary, and the meat industry does some pretty sick shit to the animals. I'm all for free range, properly treated meat but I chose to eat none of it. I feel healthier, my body likes vegitarianism. I'd eat meat if I had to, if i was lost in a forest and it was a matter of survival I tell you now I would not hesitate to kill an animal, of course i would thank it for its sacrafice and its generosity in allowing me its life.

Edited by NiamhNyx (10/04/02 09:37 PM)

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #933198 -

Where in the heck did you get your information about the proteins in milk being too large for us to digest? Bah humbug. There are some that are lactose intolerant so they get sick if they eat/drink dairy products (maybe this is what you are referring to). Lactose however is a sugar not a protein. Those that are lactose intolerant is because they have a genetic defect in their E.Coli bacteria in their stomach and can't catabolize the sugar. Otherwise dairy is a perfectly normal source of dietary intake.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: chemkid]
    #933238 -

I got this information from several doctors, all explaining my reaction to dairy. Many many people are allergic. Think about it- its made for cows, they have 4 stomaches in which to digest it with- they can digest  cellulose, we certainly can't. Cows have a much tougher digestive system than we do, we aren't meant to eat cows milk. They should really just make cheese out of breast milk.... :grin:

Dairy allergy is different than lactose intolerance, its often subtle but can be rather violent. Its symptoms are increased phlegm production, slight or more pronounced intestinal irritation, becoming exhausted easily, smelliness, etc...

I do know what I'm talking about here, I'm in no way bullshitting anyone. Humans are the only ones who drink milk after infancy and the only ones that take it from another animal, imagine adult squirrels suckin back on the teats of your cat and you may see how crazy it is that we do this. I admit, dairy is awesome, i love it, its tasty, but its not a natural part of the human diet for any reason other than we decided it was enjoyable, and took it.

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #933485 -

ok... so if you believe that eat or not eating somthing is wrong couldn't doing drugs be wrong too?  I mean if a person gets all fucked up on drugs they do not help out the social nature of humans.  If everybody was getting lased out with mushrooms on a regular basis the civilization would not be the same as we know it.  If people over indulge in what "they" think is good could really end up being bad for everybody else.  Dose anybody agree?  I think that eating is a form of indulgment, the BIBLE on other sources too explain how gluttany is "bad".  So no matter what you feel is right, it is understood that there are a few basic rules that should not be broken even if you think you are only hurting yourself.  I think mushrooms give us a doorway into seeing how overindulgence can affect  both life and society.  Part of this is because the mushroom gives us an overindulgence into the spirtual world unlike eating sleeping or any other activity.  By giving into you desires you begin to see how this giving can be dangerous ( you dont really know how bad _____ is untill you 've tried it). 

pardon the spelling, it is late :cool: 

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: ehud]
    #934279 -

WOOOhoo WOOhoo .. the bible can be interprited MANYS WAYS. We whoever wrote the bible they presived that christ was (god=External). The fucking christians got the bible a bad name. Because even THEY are confused, the bible has many truths!!!!!!!! Jesus (possible once was a guy that ate a insightfull mushroom) said that in the end (revelations), nobody can tell you christ is "there, or there he is, or he is here", because CHRIST WILL BE FOUND IN YOUR SELF. This alone conviced me that the bible has been interprited wrong for a long time.

Jesus christ isn't in my opinon a good way to name it. Christ being the god within and jesus was a man. So its jesus with out christ would be like john, jane, or any other name. Christ is a word like is to discover within. So jesus christ was a man to discover god in self. Just my two cents


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: kREATION1]
    #934614 -

Yes! Exactly! That's not the same example I've seen, but thanks for illustrating!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #934652 -

Why not kill animals to eat.....they would do the same to us. Polar Bears for example are one type of animal that enjoys Humans for food =). Can you or God judge a bear or a lion for killing a antilope or a human?

peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


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Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: BlueJay]
    #934682 -

The Bible speaks of eating "pulse," which is vegetarian fare. John the Baptist lived on "locusts and wild honey" (Matt. 3:4) which wasn't exactly vegetarian, but locusts were among the 'clean' foods of Leviticus. Eggs and fish are mentioned in the Gospels, and Paul uses 'meat' and 'milk' as analogies to those who can handle the difficult to 'assimilate' spiritual truths versus the newbies who must be 'milk-fed.'

The sacrifice of thousands of lambs at Passover for thousands of years, attests to the use of meat for ritual and consumption by Biblical ethics. The creatures of Earth are for mankind in this anthrocentric view, but specialized diets correspond to specialized states of mind and their corresponding outer roles as prophet, visionary, etc. It is a harsh truth - the food chain - that characterizes biological life on the planet. I became vegan for some years, foregoing milk and eggs as well as fish and meat, but my overall health suffered. If I could live on more rarified sources of energy - fruit, or water, air and light, I would forego the pleasures of the pallet and belly for the higher fulfillment of being able to assimilate pure energy with far less intermediary steps. Alas, this carbon unit must survive, and I must admit, at the cost of animal lives.

I have thought about what would happen if all of our agriculturally raised animals were suddenly released back into the landscape, and no further butchery was to
occur. Unregulated reproduction, unregulated consumption of grasslands, no natural predators (except the occasional endangered big cat), encroachment into highways and residential areas for foraging, death/decay/disease. This wouldn't be like the occasional Hindu Holy Cow in the street. There are people developing more humane killing machines which are designed to eliminate the fear factor by removing visual and auditory stimuli from the slaughterhouse.

There is always the recurrent thought that 'it is all perfect,' and I just can't see the whole picture - slaughterhouses and all. The Gnostics rejected the Creator God and called him the Demiurge, because they refused to believe that a Good God would create the horror of nature. They seemed to reject the beauty and intelligent design of nature as well.

I give thanks for food before I eat it, and I thank the animal who died for me, as well as God who provided everything (in an infinite regress) that led to the conscious moment that I am praying in. I learned thanksgiving to the animal from Native Americans, and I believe this is a respectful approach, since it is not the most compassionate approach (which would be a vegan meal). Nevertheless, a couple times a year, I will splurge at Houston's Steak House and order the $28.00 filet mignon. If I live to be good and old, I will not be able to do this because time and entropy will be devouring me.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #935920 -

The key of all is moderation.

I am NOT against eating animals, I'm against taking advantage of our power and abusing and exploiting them for minor gain and mere indulgence. I am against raping the beings of this planet just so I can have a Big Mac. Like I said, eating animals is fine, no problem, but factory meat farms and slaughterhouses do some sick things and I just can't support an industry that doesn't respect the life that sustains it.

I felt hypocritical, as a meat eater, enjoying my roast chicken but knowing that I would not go through with killing it myself, connecting with the creature on that level and truly having the full experience of life-death-life. This is MY philosophy, I am not against eating meat, but I think that my reasoning is very valid and fair.


Oh and we quite obviously couldn't release hundreds of thousands of farm animals into the wild, we've bred them to our standards for centuries, there are far too many of them (our own damn fault) and they don't know how to live in the wild. What we *can* do though is breed less cattle, making the populations more reasonable and treat them all with the dignity they deserve, not feeding cow parts back to cows, not keeping calves trapped in stalls in which they cannot move, not feeding them second rate food etc....

Many farms treat animals well, these are usually smaller farms. But many treat them terribly and I think that if you respect the concept of life you gotta respect all life, not just human. (Respecting life means either experiencing the life-death-life cycle by killing, eating and sustaining yourself with meat, and/or boycotting violent, unethical and corrupt systems.)

Edited by NiamhNyx (10/06/02 01:48 AM)

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: ehud]
    #937123 -

I eat a lot of pizza and I own an ant farm.

Sometimes I go heavy on the sauce and I make the ants salute me with their antennae as a way to signify my rank.

Am I going to hell?

Ehud? Anybody?

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #940343 -

I agree with you. We buy free range chicken, eggs and meat whenever possible; we don't eat at fast food retaurants. My wife hasn't eaten fast food in 25 years. I supplement my protein intake with pricey casein-egg products in shakes, for breakfast, and eat cottage cheese (since I can handle lactose, while beans give me enough gas to supply electricity to a small Indian village).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: ]
    #940361 -

"THEM!!!...THEM!!!...THEM!!!...Y-I-I-I-I-I-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-*"


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #940600 -

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #941577 -

hey markos, hey everybody...
locusts & honey... well, ya, ingesting insects is still done in many areas (including the middle east), but --- it is possible that the "locusts" which the baptist ate in the wilderness were actually seedpods of the locust tree (carob = st john's bread)... quite nutritious & a fairly good source of protein...
~
a thoughtful vegetarian diet is almost certainly more healthful than an "omnivore" diet... and an all meat diet (like that of classic eskimo culture) may be pretty bad for ya...


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: Fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" [Re: Adamist]
    #942001 -

What if I had to kill and eat my friend to survive, because we were trapped in an avalanche for weeks? Would you consider me evil?

Nah, that would be OK, but what if you "needed" a snack after only four hours?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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