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 eMotionALLmotion
DivineeMotive....
Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 759
Loc: The Symphony of Lights......
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 Re: These THINGS are Evil  [Re: Icelander]
#4213049 - 05/24/05 02:27 AM (18 years, 8 days ago) |
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Uni-VersALL  MasterPeace
eMotive  Divinity NowThere Infinity eMelody
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Silversoul
Rhizome
 
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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 Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Prosgeopax]
#4213057 - 05/24/05 02:29 AM (18 years, 8 days ago) |
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Did you hear about the dyslexic atheist? He doesn't believe in dog.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Silversoul]
#4213065 - 05/24/05 02:32 AM (18 years, 8 days ago) |
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Man we is funny.  
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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eMotionALLmotion
DivineeMotive....
Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 759
Loc: The Symphony of Lights......
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 Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Icelander]
#4213077 - 05/24/05 02:36 AM (18 years, 8 days ago) |
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Nam, ew is ynnuF.... 
(I don't believe in dog jokes....)
I will stop now.... 
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Uni-VersALL MasterPeace
eMotive Divinity NowThere Infinity eMelody
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 Nomad
Mad Robot
Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
#4213307 - 05/24/05 07:29 AM (18 years, 7 days ago) |
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Greed is evil? If it was not for human greed, not only would you not be here right now, the entire human species probably wouldn't.
Yes, but that would be a good thing, obviously. That's why greed is evil.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Nomad]
#4213354 - 05/24/05 07:55 AM (18 years, 7 days ago) |
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Case closed! 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 22 days
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
#4213360 - 05/24/05 08:00 AM (18 years, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said:I'm not actually saying I wouldn't help people and that I'm greedy myself, because I'm not.
Why do you feel the need to point this out? Or even moreso, why do you adhere to that system if you yourself said there's nothing wrong with greed?
I understand the concept of transcending labels of good and evil, as they are a product of our perceptions and not inherent values of any given thing...
But I don't see how you can say all that, and then turn around and say that you don't condone the systems through action.
What is it that prevents you from being greedy, if not a moral standpoint??
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Icelander]
#4213383 - 05/24/05 08:13 AM (18 years, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Evil is live spelled backwards. You dig!     
only in english language, therefore it is a coincedence
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Ya I dig, big daddy Specter. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Alan Stone
Corpus
Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
#4213815 - 05/24/05 11:08 AM (18 years, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
As humans, we don't need everyone to survive after all, just those who are in favorable circumstances.
You mean you don't need any of the less fortunate souls who work in factories assembling your car? How about those in sweatshops sewing your sneakers? How about those poor coffee farmers who provide your cup o' Joe? How about sewage workers? I can go on for a while, ya know.
Those in favourable circumstances (us, Occidentals) do not need to be greedy to reproduce. Basic health care is enough.
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
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Doom
Rogue
Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 365
Loc: ghost-train city
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Alan Stone]
#4213842 - 05/24/05 11:14 AM (18 years, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Stone said:
Quote:
As humans, we don't need everyone to survive after all, just those who are in favorable circumstances.
You mean you don't need any of the less fortunate souls who work in factories assembling your car? How about those in sweatshops sewing your sneakers? How about those poor coffee farmers who provide your cup o' Joe? How about sewage workers? I can go on for a while, ya know.
Those in favourable circumstances (us, Occidentals) do not need to be greedy to reproduce. Basic health care is enough.
Occidentals? shit, last time I checked most people who lived in trailer parks were occidentals. maybe Mr.Said should pay them a visit.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Quote:
Why do you feel the need to point this out? Or even moreso, why do you adhere to that system if you yourself said there's nothing wrong with greed?
I understand the concept of transcending labels of good and evil, as they are a product of our perceptions and not inherent values of any given thing...
But I don't see how you can say all that, and then turn around and say that you don't condone the systems through action.
What is it that prevents you from being greedy, if not a moral standpoint??
I point it out because I don't follow many traditional human traits, even if it would help my survival. Humans have faith and hope for a reason, just like they have greed and selfishness for a reason, and I realize that faith helps get humans through hard times. This is the beauty of evolution. I myself still do not adhere to it, even if I realize its use for human survival.
I don't say all that, I observe it to be true, that greed is helpful for human survival. People will use the analogy of the big fish in the pond eating all the little fish and killing off their species, but the problem with that analogy applied to humans is that everybody has the potential to be a big fish, and we are in an ocean of resources. Everybody is fighting to eat the little fish and stay alive, and though some humans die in the process, this is simply survival. There is no human who is possibly a big enough fish to eat all the little fish and singlehandedly kill off the species. Even the top few thousand people in the world in terms of money and resources don't take so much that there's not enough for mostly everyone else, yet with such massive amounts of money, houses and cars, how could they be considered anything but greedy?
This doesn't mean I, or anyone else, has to follow anything that is useful to human survival. But neither will I call it evil or say that it should be eliminated, as many "enlightened" people who would kill off humanity do. My own human decision allows me to not be greedy in terms of resources, because to be completely honest, I'm too greedy in terms of trying to acquire knowledge.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 22 days
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
#4214548 - 05/24/05 02:23 PM (18 years, 7 days ago) |
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My own human decision allows me to not be greedy in terms of resources, because to be completely honest, I'm too greedy in terms of trying to acquire knowledge.
Thanks for the response. While I agree with that statement, and even embody it myself, there is a difference to be noted: When one gains knowledge, no one loses it as a result. So, in a way, moral dictation may still apply, because we choose a form of greed much less likely to hinder someone else's way of life.
Just thinkin' out loud... 
Just to clarify:
I'm not saying that your decisions are necessarily consciously based on morality... I am saying that there is a fair chance that there is a subconscious "backbone" to our chosen methods that explains our choices based on a core belief that it's morally wrong to harm others unless absolutely necessary.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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I believe the original phrase was "the LOVE of money is the root of all evil."
IMO the "evil" lies in devoting oneself to material wealth at the expense of spiritual wealth.
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Kalix
'Head
Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 1,504
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
#4214906 - 05/24/05 04:00 PM (18 years, 7 days ago) |
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I point it out because I don't follow many traditional human traits, even if it would help my survival. Humans have faith and hope for a reason, just like they have greed and selfishness for a reason, and I realize that faith helps get humans through hard times. This is the beauty of evolution. I myself still do not adhere to it, even if I realize its use for human survival.
I don't say all that, I observe it to be true, that greed is helpful for human survival. People will use the analogy of the big fish in the pond eating all the little fish and killing off their species, but the problem with that analogy applied to humans is that everybody has the potential to be a big fish, and we are in an ocean of resources. Everybody is fighting to eat the little fish and stay alive, and though some humans die in the process, this is simply survival. There is no human who is possibly a big enough fish to eat all the little fish and singlehandedly kill off the species. Even the top few thousand people in the world in terms of money and resources don't take so much that there's not enough for mostly everyone else, yet with such massive amounts of money, houses and cars, how could they be considered anything but greedy?
This doesn't mean I, or anyone else, has to follow anything that is useful to human survival. But neither will I call it evil or say that it should be eliminated, as many "enlightened" people who would kill off humanity do. My own human decision allows me to not be greedy in terms of resources, because to be completely honest, I'm too greedy in terms of trying to acquire knowledge.
I think there are different grades of greed. The kind of greed that helps a race survive, such as the urge to orgasm are different than the kind of greed that makes people horde wealth and resources. The first kind is natural and needed, but the second is a perverted, and inappropriate form of the first...
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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason
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Nomad
Mad Robot
Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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 Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
#4217672 - 05/25/05 07:54 AM (18 years, 6 days ago) |
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Regarding your new sig - I really don't consider you a fascist, and I actually find your sarcasm quite refreshing; yet I have to admit that I, too, smelt the stench of such tendency behind your posts. Since I now know that I am not the only one who interpreted you that way, I feel compelled to throw some light on the issue, for your benefit. For if I were to write posts which others judge as having kind of fascist content, I'd appreciate very much when someone gives me a hint, so I may reconsider my position, change my style, or just be more aware of the provocation involved for casual readers.
I am more than happy to provide that service for you.
According to your argument, there must not be any humans on the planet without greed, for greedless humans are less capable of reproduction, and therefore have become extinct long ago. What you are expounding is not natural selection, but the so-called "natural fallacy", the attempt to derive human values from nature. The corresponding philosophy is called "social darwinism", it's most famous promoter being german scientist Ernst Haeckel, who provided the ideological justification for racism and genocide.
Fascism
a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
It's a bit harsh, but those who do not have enough without relying on the kindness of others, by natural selection, should die out.
The greed for power has helped humans through hundreds of thousands of years. Someone has to fight and kill to lead the pack, after all.
See?
Now, something completely different:
But neither will I call it evil or say that it should be eliminated, as many "enlightened" people who would kill off humanity do.
Ah, not only humanity, you know. That would be too easy. They all have to go, every single sentient being in every single realm of existence, above, below, and in each parallel dimension, too, merging their consciousness with the supreme bliss of unconditioned deathlessness, until, one beautiful day, samsara will be - empty. That's the plan, anyway.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Nomad]
#4219304 - 05/25/05 04:52 PM (18 years, 6 days ago) |
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Actually, I was just testing out a German-English translator, and thought that the stereotypical fascist ramblings of the Nazis looked and sounded quite interesting. I also thought no one knew German or cared enough to translate it, but alas, the mods proved me wrong on that, and I was asked to change it.
One of the biggest fallacies people have is that because the Nazis supported something, it must be wrong or evil. I consider this to be pure bullshit. I don't care who endorsed what in the past, as it doesn't change the current scientific theories or my own philosophical leanings. So a Nazi scientist had a similar view on natural selection that I have? Good for him, maybe he was intelligent, maybe he was insane, but his opinions will not discourage me from posting mine.
My scientific views on the origins of human values, emotions and traits doesn't reflect my views on politics or government in any way. I realize the usefulness of greed, I realize that death is essential to evolution, but do I advocate them because of this? If anything, my leanings are somewhere between the social and economic freedom of the libertarians and the environmental protection of the greens.
Nor do the Nazis go against my observations, either. Germany was in bad condition after losing World War I, but under the guidance of a strong central leader, crazy as he was, he organized the country back into a strong superpower and waged war on the world, taking over many territories before he was stopped. Someone does indeed have to fight and kill for the pack, even if they're insane, because human nature has humanity follow confident central leaders.
Sadly, those that the craziest and most set in their beliefs are often the ones most confident in their views and their leadership, which is why we'll notice mentally unstable people coming to power. Not only Hitler, but Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Reagan, Vlad the Impaler, mainly all rulers throughout the Middle Ages and even before that, were all some of the worst people for the job. That is natural selection though, and since these people were the strongest and won the position, they are remembered throughout history.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Alan Stone
Corpus
Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Doom]
#4219531 - 05/25/05 05:46 PM (18 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Shit, last time I checked most people who lived in trailer parks were occidentals. maybe Mr.Said should pay them a visit.
You mean trailer park folk cannot and do not reproduce? What's your point?
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: These THINGS are Evil [Re: Ravus]
#4219610 - 05/25/05 06:15 PM (18 years, 6 days ago) |
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ravus...greed is caused by fear isn't it? People that want more than they need, also known as avarice. it's a downward spiral of human's ruthlessness against its own kind.
lets look at some hisotry...
When France was defeated in 1871 in the Franco-Prussian War it was forced to pay a huge indemnity. After Germany was defeated in WWI France exacted a greedy settlement from it. This overtaxed the German economy resulting in huge inflation. The people turned to Hitler as a way out of the mess, resulting in WWII including the occupation of France.
you consider this evolution?
Greed..this type of fear is characterized by an exaggerated valuation for external things. It causes people to wish particularly to accumulate and possess things which others consider to be valuable as a means of asserting their own worth. it limits compasssion..and you call this evolution?
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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