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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4186979 -

Well, if you take it that we are just biological organisms, we ar still considered vessels, much like computer hard drives are vessels for information. Now the difference between computers and humans is, is that we do not necessarily make our own vessels, they were made and created beyond our understanding, for the most part in this time in our civilization.

We dont understand the use of our vessels and completely what function they serve. We always ask "what is the meaning" of life, "what does this mean...etc". Maybe these are just automated through time, memes? plugged in by others? But if so, why would they think that? If no one had wondered before, we learn... We could just be biological "hard drives, and processors" only recycling the meme knowledge from past generations, which has generated our world, or we coudl also be a vessel for the "spirit" which science cant explain because it is "beyond science", for it makes up the very fabric of all things. beyond physical limitations...

Now whether you believe we are just vessels for knowledge and creatures that like to mix thigns up, and we have created all of this vast knowledge and logical stuff, and nothing more is to it, or whether you believe we are completely divine, well i guess that all depends on what you experience.

There are definite things, and their are implied things, now where to draw the line... i like to be creative, but im also realistic. Thats about all i can say for this matter... heh heh...

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Frog]
    #4187200 -

There is nothing primitive about believing ... that we have souls that go somewhere after death,

This is a very primitive mindset that fabricates an explanation with no factual basis. This is called superstition and not theory.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4187217 -

Swami said:
When HAL, the AI computer from the book/movie "2001" misbehaved, one of the astronauts began to shut HAL down. After each memory and processor card was disconnected, HAL would lose more and more high-level functioning, much like a human experiencing brain deterioration or damage. When the last card was removed and HAL was shut-down, does it make ANY sense at all to ask where HAL went?

If not, then why do we ask this about biological units? (Specifically only ourselves as no one asks where bacteria go when they die.) There is no logic to this nonsensical question, only someone looking for a story to placate their fear of termination.


In the book 2061 and 3001 HAL did have an afterlife, he was made a "starchild" together with Dave Bowman


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4187234 -

And besides, a theory which would say that human consciousness is not made by brain and body leaves little or no room for the concept of artifitial consciousness.

Using AI as an argument against some spiritism is impossible because spiritism leaves no room for AI and AI leaves maybe no room for spiritism. Both are unproven, so it's just one words against the other words


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4187261 -

HAL is still there, disassembled.. :smile:
:P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

Edited by Gomp (05/17/05 03:03 PM)

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4187417 -

Swami said:
There is nothing primitive about believing ... that we have souls that go somewhere after death,

This is a very primitive mindset that fabricates an explanation with no factual basis. This is called superstition and not theory.


There is no proof that we don't have souls. There is no proof that we don't go somewhere after death.

A theory that we go somewhere after death is just as good a theory that we don't go anywhere in the absence of evidence to support either proposition.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Frog]
    #4187430 -

Frog said:
Swami said:
There is nothing primitive about believing ... that we have souls that go somewhere after death,

This is a very primitive mindset that fabricates an explanation with no factual basis. This is called superstition and not theory.


There is no proof that we don't have souls. There is no proof that we don't go somewhere after death.

A theory that we go somewhere after death is just as good a theory that we don't go anywhere in the absence of evidence to support either proposition.


Not true, that is an Argument from Ignorance. When dealing with a lack of evidence, you assume the condition the makes the least assumptions (Occam's Razor)

Philosophy 101

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: spud]
    #4187542 -

spud said:
Frog said:
Swami said:
There is nothing primitive about believing ... that we have souls that go somewhere after death,

This is a very primitive mindset that fabricates an explanation with no factual basis. This is called superstition and not theory.


There is no proof that we don't have souls.  There is no proof that we don't go somewhere after death.

A theory that we go somewhere after death is just as good a theory that we don't go anywhere in the absence of evidence to support either proposition.


Not true, that is an Argument from Ignorance. When dealing with a lack of evidence, you assume the condition the makes the least assumptions (Occam's Razor)

Philosophy 101


Well, I didn't take that class, obviously.  :grin:

I just don't see it as a superstition.  I see it as a faith in something. 

I see your point, though.  Agnostics will make this argument and win every time.  I think that's why we call it believing on faith because there really is no proof for believing that we go some where when we die. 

Still, though, there's no proof that we don't go somewhere.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4188031 -

For all we know, our consciousness gets downloaded into another Body bot of some form else where when this one looses it.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4188392 -

"This game of "ignorance = mysticism" speaks only of ourselves and tells us nothing of the world. Saying that thunder was an angry God "explained" as much saying that a soul differentiates life from non-life. It serves no real purpose. It is time to grow beyond this primitive mindset. "

There's no reason a person accept science and have a useful relationship with themself that invokes "mystical" concepts.

Saying that thunder was an angry god may have served many real purposes. I would say the real purposes were all the -effects- of belief. The effects may have included:
*a reverence for nature
*human sacrifices
*religious orders
*a sense that the chaos could be controlled, relieving people to go on with their lives and continue gathering-hunting or whatever.

Some effects are good, some are bad. Science has good and bad effects too: antibiotics is good, nuclear bombs is not

Personally I am all for the good something does, scientific or not.

I am against the bad something does, even if it is scientific.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4188496 -

Quote:
Personally I am all for the good something does, scientific or not.

I am against the bad something does, even if it is scientific.


I'm all for believing something when there is evidence to substantiate it. If there's nothing to substantiate it one way or the other, for or against, nothing wrong with believing in it as long as it doesn't do anyone any harm.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4188789 -

If you read the 2001 series by Clark you know where he went. When Jupiter exploded in 2010 the Discovery vaporized. Afterwards HAL's spirit was still in existance. He experienced life after death and went on to be a major player in the remaining books of the series.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4189974 -

Using AI as an argument against some spiritism is impossible because spiritism leaves no room for AI and AI leaves maybe no room for spiritism. Both are unproven, so it's just one words against the other words

That seems to provide an interesting argument. The failure of research into artificial intelligence strongly suggests that consciousness cannot be reduced to neural processes.

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4190004 -

Swami said:
When the last card was removed and HAL was shut-down, does it make ANY sense at all to ask where HAL went?
.
If not, then why do we ask this about biological units?


.
Because we are biological units....(?)    :shrug:


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4190072 -

eMotionALLmotion said:
Swami said:
When the last card was removed and HAL was shut-down, does it make ANY sense at all to ask where HAL went?
.
If not, then why do we ask this about biological units?


.
Because we are biological units....(?)    :shrug:



:sun:


:grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Frog]
    #4190088 -

hal goes into all of us thus continues an emanation of what was, subtle.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4192431 -

Quote:
When the last card was removed and HAL was shut-down, does it make ANY sense at all to ask where HAL went?


Of course it does. Has science not asked the same question about human bodies disappearing over time?

However, that's not nearly as important as asking HAL himself where he thought he would go if this cards were removed. Have you considered an inherent quality of consciousness might be wondering about seemingly non-vital issues?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4193003 -

"That seems to provide an interesting argument. The failure of research into artificial intelligence strongly suggests that consciousness cannot be reduced to neural processes. "

Or maybe the brain just doesn't work like we think it should. Historically it's viewed as a kind of computer almost, representing the world. There's AI theory out there that says, get rid of this concept and think of the brain as something IN the world, not separate and objectively observing (whatever that means). Representation would thus be one phenomenon among others.

These sorts of people don't seem to inspire much research. I think it's because the representational/cognitivist view is so damn entrenched. But the brain-in-the-world theorists themselves generally seem very skeptical that conciousness can ever be broken down into distinct component parts. Typically they argue something like, the parts themselves are constantly shifting...


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4193096 -

redgreenvines said:
hal goes into all of us thus continues an emanation of what was, subtle.


.
Yes, as all of us that remember HAL, he will be forever remembered within our minds....
Thus he will always live on as part of us forever - assembled, or not.... 


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: Robotomy and Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4193892 -

there can be no HAL other than our own psychological projection. the conscious HAL is merely an interpretation by conscious beings. there certainly is no objective consciousness there. we may assign it due to the similarity of its behaviour to our own

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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