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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation
    #4066224 - 04/17/05 08:19 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I think it's Buddhism that teaches this mostly. I was thinking that if Buddhism teaches you how to live without suffering then why would you not want to come back here?

That is my next question specifically. What is so bad about the human body or planet earth that you want to never return after you die, especially if you have the keys to bliss while alive here and can share it with others who are suffering?

What force is forcing you to enter a human body through birth against your own free will?

If you get to some point where you become free from this force forcing you against your free will to incarnate, why wouldn't you want to come back just to teach it to others who are supposedly stuck in some cycle?

If you know how to be in bliss while alive here, why wouldn't you want to come back to teach it to others?

Is this life and gem of a planet so awful you just want to break free and never come back and what is so awful anyway?

Have you considered doing something to make it better not just now but coming back to continue improving upon the human experience on earth for fun or for others or just for a new creative challenge?

These questions are just for those looking to break free from a believed cycle of reincarnation they are bound too.

Thanks ahead of time for any replies because I would really like to  see if I missed anything when I asked and answered these questions to myself some time ago, though I do think that I came here of my own free will and its always been my choice.  :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblejux
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4066241 - 04/17/05 08:31 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

It's just an old religion, a myth. Of course it doesn't make sense :smile:


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: jux]
    #4066397 - 04/17/05 09:32 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The reason I would want to move on is because I think there are unlimited worlds to explore. This world was a gem, but is getting trashed pretty well, lots of negative energy going around. Maybe there is someplace more fun to be.

If you are blissed it doesn't matter where you are. Still, I like to travel. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: Icelander]
    #4066431 - 04/17/05 09:45 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Well that would be reincarnating into another star system having nothing to do with breaking some cycle you are bound by struggling to free yourself from for good.

You wouldn't be one who this question was addressed too. I know I have read people here talking about it in the past and people who are hard core into Buddhism.

P.S. I like to travel to :wink:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineTrippinNinjaBuddha
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4066444 - 04/17/05 09:49 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"why wouldn't you want to come back and teach bliss to others?"

see: the lamas - the dalai lama is basically a really sweet, cool soul who comes back over and over to help us out.

Who knows whether or not we are reincarnated? I certainly can't remember anything before this, aside from a nagging sense of deja vu. who knows what happens after death? I hope it's something damn cool

also I believe in the buddhist tradition of reincarnation, one does not generally remember details of one's past life. but perhaps for the enlightened few making the return journey, it is different

happy traaaaaails


--------------------
Jumped in a river, what did I see?
Black eyed angels swimming with me
Moon full of stars and astral cars, all the figures I used to see
All my lovers were there with me
All my past and all my futures
We went to heaven in a little rowboat
There was nothing to fear and nothing to doubt


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: jux]
    #4066467 - 04/17/05 09:57 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

it's your right to feel at home here on earth as long as you're alive, and perhaps  in this life you'll realize that you're being led back to an even more preferable way of existing that you had forgotten about when you entered this life, or cycle of lives. 

i feel like this, but it hasn't discredited my love for life.  this realization came to me out of the blue, the first time i took a large dose of LSD but before i had really pondered things religious or mystical, so i was never really looking to break the cycle on any conscious level.  it just happened, bells and whistles, it was done.  i don't feel it was my choice, and i'm rather glad it came to me unexpected.  it was something i'd much rather have had shown to me as i could never have imagined what i was i was looking for.

oi.  not much help, i reckon. :smile:

blessings, CJ


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: TrippinNinjaBuddha]
    #4066480 - 04/17/05 10:00 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

So that's interesting. You get to enlightenment and you are free from the reincarnation cycle yet, in enlightenment, you choose to reincarnate to serve. Funny irony huh? I wonder what the difference to them is really? Doesn't it take service to others to get to enlightenment? See what I am saying?

Thanks for sharing that as this religion keeps making less and less sense to me!


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4066523 - 04/17/05 10:13 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You wouldn't be one who this question was addressed too. I know I have read people here talking about it in the past and people who are hard core into Buddhism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------




Aw, comeon I want to post here. I'm a Buddhist, sort of. :laugh: I think life is suffering and attachment causes suffering. I even believe in reincarnation, of sorts. Just not the same personality. But eternal energy.

OK, OK, I'm leaving now.  :confused: :blush:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: Icelander]
    #4066556 - 04/17/05 10:26 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Well, I am about as much Buddhist as you are then , cept for the part about life being suffering I would change that to life being what you make of it.

I want to hear answers from the full on Budhists who have been in deep study and practice of it for years. I realise some of us have adopted similiar understandings but thats not the same as following it to the letter.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4066949 - 04/18/05 12:50 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I have always believed that in the big scheme of things, earth is a cosmic shithole. The meaning of existence on the planet earth is to eventually leave the planet earth.

reincarnation is all about karma. people forget to look at the big picture, and try to find their happiness among the corporeal. This generates karma, which causes them to enter a whole string of reincarnations until they are able to clear their karmic entaglements and move on to better worlds.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4067151 - 04/18/05 01:49 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I recommend learning about Buddhism not through what random non-Buddhists/Buddhist dilettantes tell you what they think the answers are (so that you can quickly dismiss Buddhist thought and pat yourself on the back), but through reading actual Buddhist scripture/sutras yourself. I recommend Buddhist Scriptures by Edward Conze. The book is an excellent translation of many of the great, influential texts of various Buddhist schools of thought - many of which do not agree with each other.

Quote:

I was thinking that if Buddhism teaches you how to live without suffering then why would you not want to come back here?




Buddhism does not necessarily teach "how to live without suffering" because life itself is viewed as suffering. Buddhism shows what path will lead one to extinguish karma.

Quote:

What is so bad about the human body or planet earth that you want to never return after you die...




Dukka

Quote:

...especially if you have the keys to bliss while alive here and can share it with others who are suffering?




What bliss do you speak of? Who said that Buddhism is a path toward worldly bliss? As for "sharing with others" are you familiar with the concept of the Bodhisattva?

Read the Bodhisattva Vow

Quote:

What force is forcing you to enter a human body through birth against your own free will?




My shoe is green.

Quote:

If you know how to be in bliss while alive here, why wouldn't you want to come back to teach it to others?




Who is blissful?

Quote:

Is this life and gem of a planet so awful you just want to break free and never come back and what is so awful anyway?




The path toward extinguishing karma and rebirth is not one of repulse or escapism, but simply passive non-involvement in these worldly games.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: Vvellum]
    #4067311 - 04/18/05 02:32 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you for sharing all of that BIO. This isn't about pats on the back. This is about making sense out of or clearing up a lot of the contradictory teachings that go on around here in the name of Buddha and Buddhism. One says it teaches this and one says it teaches the contrary and one says both at the same time.

Um yeah, I started questioning people.

I parrot stuff I read here to see if I get consistant answers from devotees.

I am allowed to do that here.

Questioning stuff is a good thing.

Again, I appreciate your posting what you did as it runs contrary to stuff others have posted here in the past in his name.

I have a question for you. Why bother rebirthing if just to come and be passively non involved with worldly games? Will you be kind enough to make sense of that for me because it makes no sense. Why bother rebirthing into physical life if the intention is to not be involved with it? Maybe I am just really dense and stupid but I don't get it.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinecaptmueller
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4067827 - 04/18/05 05:52 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

personally i believe that knowledge of the true inner self is the key to stopping reincarnation to this world, which i believe is a prison designed to keep us distracted by "reality"
i personally believe that we are gods who have yet to realize ourselves...thats part of the enlightenment...
i also believe that enlightenment comes from following a path of selflessness..and damn...thats hard...
everybodies perceptions are different...
to each his/her own of course...

namaste,
captmueller


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4067880 - 04/18/05 06:28 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

about bliss.

the buddha said that in this existence you can store up enough good karma to reincarnate as a god in one of the heavens. but even gods are doomed to reincarnate in lower realms and again suffer.

escaping the wheel of rebirth is equalizing death in its silence and serenity, tranquil nothingness, I'd say it's going back to the absolute reverse of life, like a moment eternally lingering on just before the big-bang, source of all the luxurious cascades of life.

I'd say reincarnating as a god you could maybe be a river, a grand course of water pushing vessels and hosting thousands of animals and plants, maybe you could reincarnate to be planet or a star. but escaping the wheel of rebirth you could become the elusive mystery behind space and time where all the deepest metaphysical questions reverberate echoing in the translucid chalice of an all pervading emptiness.

Is that the purpose of my spiritual path? yes and no. I think buddhism must descend from the top of its divine plateau to meet the deepest jungle profuse with wild life, blood and sap intertwined in dreams of flesh and wood, exploding in colours and leaves that wave and curl in the wind. it's time to find in the eye of the snake glittering with poison the shiny brilliance of life and the everlasting embers of eternity.

descend transcendent radiance
from your cauldrons of owe
to fall like rain
upon the open chest of life

pulsating strong
swept in the liquid emotions
of the thunderous heart
what am I?


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4068200 - 04/18/05 11:38 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

hey man - no problem. I did not mean the "pat yourself on the back" comment personally. Sometimes I do this myself, and I think many others do as well. I will try to answer your questions.

Quote:

have a question for you. Why bother rebirthing if just to come and be passively non involved with worldly games? Will you be kind enough to make sense of that for me because it makes no sense. Why bother rebirthing into physical life if the intention is to not be involved with it?




Well, following what the Mahayana school teaches (and I should add that I am not of this school of thought - I am a beginner student of Zen) there are those who rebirth: those who are caught up in the cycle due to ignorance of the true nature of reality and due to karma (both good and bad karma - it is a common but understandable misconception that good karma is a path toward liberation. all karma will lead to rebirth) and the Bodhisattvas. The Bodhisattvas forgo Final Nirvana to teach others the way of liberation out of compassion. I believe it can be said that only the Bodhisattvas choose to "come back" while everyone else who is caught up in the karma game has no choice because they have tangled themselves too deeply.

Imagine a rope tied to a wall on one end and a person holding the end of the rope on the other. Imagine the person shaking the rope back and forth creating ripples and wave movement in the rope. If stillness of rope is the objective, then the person should not shake the rope to compensate or negate each wave - he/she should just stop shaking the rope so that eventually the rope will be still as all the waves slowly exhaust themselves.

The normal individual would be the one who shakes the rope wildly out of ignorance. The enlightened would be the one who knows to just hold still. The Bodhisattva would be the one who decided to pick up the rope once again to teach how the waves can exhaust themselves after finding total stillness him/herself.


Edited by bi0 (04/18/05 11:52 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4068364 - 04/18/05 01:00 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:

If you get to some point where you become free from this force forcing you against your free will to incarnate, why wouldn't you want to come back just to teach it to others who are supposedly stuck in some cycle?




One of the essences of Mahayana Buddhism, no doubt, doing exactly that :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4068391 - 04/18/05 01:10 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Ahhh, nice post, BIO. :thumbup:

Your analogy reminds me of Taoism as well..... :wink: :laugh:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: Vvellum]
    #4068742 - 04/18/05 03:21 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for your reply from actual text. I use a "stop using the scale of judgment analogy" for your rope one that's the same idea to me. I liked the visual of the rope one.

It helped me to understand where I see people getting stuck with the idea of stillness.

That was my main goal, understanding people better.

Out of curiosity to compare notes, you can answer from your own take or a Buddhist text, what happens next once you realize what is causing the rope to move wildly out of control and get you tangled up in it? When you become aware of yourself as the rope and rope holder and the one in control of it and that you can untangle it and make it still, then what?

Is phase two teaching others in your opinion? What after that? Lets say, everyone has mastered "the rope" and there is no one left to teach it too. You may not have thought or wondered that far up ahead and it may not be in the text because it was written so long ago they didn't think that far ahead either because the only goal at the time was being still and teaching stillness. It's okay if you have nothing further on it.

I know the text teaches not to go into the linear future so this may be impossible for you to answer under its teachings. Sort of funny.

If you do anyway or can or they did, once the being is mastered and the teaching is done, then what?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Questions for those looking to break the cycle of reincarnation [Re: a_h_w]
    #4069030 - 04/18/05 05:13 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

a_h_w said:
about bliss.

the buddha said that in this existence you can store up enough good karma to reincarnate as a god in one of the heavens. but even gods are doomed to reincarnate in lower realms and again suffer.

escaping the wheel of rebirth is equalizing death in its silence and serenity, tranquil nothingness, I'd say it's going back to the absolute reverse of life, like a moment eternally lingering on just before the big-bang, source of all the luxurious cascades of life.

I'd say reincarnating as a god you could maybe be a river, a grand course of water pushing vessels and hosting thousands of animals and plants, maybe you could reincarnate to be planet or a star. but escaping the wheel of rebirth you could become the elusive mystery behind space and time where all the deepest metaphysical questions reverberate echoing in the translucid chalice of an all pervading emptiness.

Is that the purpose of my spiritual path? yes and no. I think buddhism must descend from the top of its divine plateau to meet the deepest jungle profuse with wild life, blood and sap intertwined in dreams of flesh and wood, exploding in colours and leaves that wave and curl in the wind. it's time to find in the eye of the snake glittering with poison the shiny brilliance of life and the everlasting embers of eternity.

descend transcendent radiance
from your cauldrons of owe
to fall like rain
upon the open chest of life

pulsating strong
swept in the liquid emotions
of the thunderous heart
what am I?




Wow! :shocked:  What a  powerful post. That really hit home well, Thank you so much. :heart:


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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