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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: soulmotion]
    #3711629 - 02/01/05 04:29 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

two things: the dichotomy of 'chaos' versus 'order' is like 'yin' and 'yang', right?

and, when I smoke salvia, I think it takes me a little way into the dimension of Everything, because I sometimes feel like my body is encased in a plasticky-granite-cement substance, which moves with me as I move, but which is nonetheless crushingly close


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3711640 - 02/01/05 04:33 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I haven't tried Salvia yet... I've heard quite a great deal about it. I wanna try it. Is bad to mix it with other drugs?


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: soulmotion]
    #3711667 - 02/01/05 04:45 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

salvia is one of those ones where you smoke it, and then BAANGG!!?!**^#!?%, and then five minutes later you're pretty much sober again. I've never heard of any phisiological contraindications, but man, for your first time go sober


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3714454 - 02/01/05 07:00 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I like it straight up and a cup of water nearby
there is no telling what I will do with the water.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Ravus]
    #3735207 - 02/05/05 03:09 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said: While our minds are conceptual, and therefore separate things, observe them and define them with words, the cosmic mind would appear to us like our conceptual mind may appear to a turtle- confusing, needless and contradictory. Why not just say that the universe is split into duality? Anyone can see it, right?




but I don't think it's either relevant or possible for a turtle to strive for conceptuality, whereas apparently it's very relevant and useful for me to attempt to see that duality is an illusion, we are all One etc.

or maybe it's like a club, whose members feel cooler than everyone else. "we are so cool because we have ditched our egos and we perceive the true nature of Reality. haha it's all a big joke, you guys are so silly, etc."


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OfflinePed
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3735351 - 02/05/05 03:47 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Suppose we are looking at a television screen.  On it are many tiny pixels giving off their own pattern of light.  Up close, they all seem like seperate objects, operating independently of eachother.  If we stand back a little bit, however, we can see that there is a picture on the TV screen.  Now, if we step back a little further, we can recognize the picture on the TV screen and associate it's flucuations with the sound coming from the stereo.  Suddenly, one blinking pixel is an entire home theater system functioning as a single entity.  Now, if we continue moving away from the living room, we might arrive in the alley way, where we see that our apartment, which seemed like a pretty isolated place from the inside, is an integrated part of a larger building. 

And that building, from the sky, is part of a concrete dot on the earth called a city.  From the sky, it looks like (and actually is) a single concrete dot on the earth.  Move out some more, and we see many concrete dots connected by many concrete filaments, stretching across the earth, as part of another essential unity called a civilization.  Keep moving out into space, and we see that the planet is involved in a relationship with the other planets and the sun as one entity called a solar system.  Out further, a single star becomes part of another unity called a galaxy, and so on and so forth into all eternity.

As pious as it will sound, it is a matter of perspective.  When we perceive things on a certain scale, we will see the seperateness between things.  When we perceiving things from a larger scale, however, we will see their essential unity.  When we look at a single pixel on a TV screen, we see it's seperateness.  When we look at the whole screen, we see the essential unity of all the pixels.  When we stand between two buildings, we see their seperateness.  When we look down at them from high above, we see their essential unity.  When we send probes between planets, we see their seperateness.  When we look down at them from another arm of the galaxy, we see their essential unity.  When we use telescopes to gaze up at other galaxies, we see their seperateness.  But if we were to be so large in our perspective that we were bigger than the universe, we would see the fizz in a glass of 7-up.

When we contemplate the whole scope of existence and it's limitless, clear nature, all things appear as one.  It's because there is no end to existence that in fact things do not exist at all.  This is not contradictory:  perceiving things from the highest possible perspective, from infinite perspective, how could any two objects appear as anything but a single entity?  From here, we can rationalize:  how can things which function as single entity be considered seperate?  Furthermore, how can things which are not seperate be said to possess their own existence?  How is a chair seperate from an automobile, a tree seperate from a dog, you seperate from I, the rest of us from each other?  We are not seperate from each other, and neither are the objects we encounter.  We are all aspects of the same process, part of that from which nothing can be removed.  Any distinction between you and I, this or that, occurs up here <points>, in the mind.

And that means that whenever you have sex, you're actually masturbating.  No, wait, that's not it at all... :crazy2:


--------------------


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Ped]
    #3735490 - 02/05/05 04:14 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

"The One is the All. only when you are Nothing will you be Everything."

This makes sense, it just depends on what your model of 'sense' is. From a spiritual model, this is basically saying what taoism is all about, how we abstract out from singularity in order to percieve dually, and that by enforcing a strong sense of self and a strong abstraction of intellect from our experience, we limit the truth we can have access to.

It appears confusing only because of the secular model of reality that we are subconsciously enforced with in this culture. Unlearn, unlearn, unlearn. The less one abstracts, the less abstracted what they perceive is. Seems 'logical' to me :smile:

ped's post summed it up well. it is all one infinite substance from which parts abstract and perceive other parts relative to their own part, giving rise to the illusion of form within substance. there is really no borders around things, everything is gradient, nothing is truly seperated. all things (forms) are impermanant as this endless substance continues to morph. yet this singular substance is non-dual and eternal itself! :smile:


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: deff]
    #3739081 - 02/06/05 03:31 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:The less one abstracts, the less abstracted what they perceive is




or you could say the less one abstracts, the less abstractions one perceives

but there seems to be an arbitrary* value judgement here. any time one's focus is on anything, one limits the truth one is exposed to simply because one's focus is limited.

Quote:

Ped said:Suppose we are looking at a television screen. On it are many tiny pixels giving off their own pattern of light. Up close, they all seem like seperate objects, operating independently of eachother.... Now, if we step back a little further, we can recognize the picture on the TV screen and associate it's flucuations with the sound coming from the stereo.... Now, if we continue moving away from the living room, we might arrive in the alley way, where we see that our apartment, which seemed like a pretty isolated place from the inside, is an integrated part of a larger building.




but once we're outside the apartment in the alley, we can no longer perceive the pixels or the TV. why is seeing the apartment any better or more truthful than seeing the TV? why is seeing where the Milky Way Galaxy is in relation to other galaxies in the same cluster any more helpful to me living my day-to-day life?

I guess what I'm saying is this paradigm doesn't grab me viscerally. I understand it cerebrally and see no problems with it, it is elegant and pleasing and internally consistent---but is it relevant?


*edit: 'arbitrary'


Edited by Zekebomb (02/06/05 03:37 AM)


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OfflineTrippinNinjaBuddha
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3740379 - 02/06/05 12:42 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

yeah yeah yeah

but what is the sound of one hand clapping?

=P


--------------------
Jumped in a river, what did I see?
Black eyed angels swimming with me
Moon full of stars and astral cars, all the figures I used to see
All my lovers were there with me
All my past and all my futures
We went to heaven in a little rowboat
There was nothing to fear and nothing to doubt


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: TrippinNinjaBuddha]
    #3741133 - 02/06/05 04:56 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

good point


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3745297 - 02/07/05 02:24 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

what, none of you enlightened types are gonna try to convert me? (I guess probably not)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3745565 - 02/07/05 03:28 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

what did you want to get changed into?
I thought you were pretty good as you were!


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OfflineChingChong
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3745752 - 02/07/05 04:10 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

:crazy2:


--------------------
How can one murder enormously if one is microscopic.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3747754 - 02/07/05 10:52 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

thanks. what I meant was,

aah screw it. if I'm 'meant' to understand something, I will. if that means I'm 'meant' to look into it on my own, then I will.

part of me thinks that the Cosmic Mind, or non-duality, or whatever you wanna call it, is just another religion, like christianity. not that that necessarily implies a value judgement. Just in that they all fit into the category of Ways To Interpret Phenomena.


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OfflinePed
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3750613 - 02/08/05 12:52 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

>> but once we're outside the apartment in the alley, we can no longer perceive the pixels or the TV. why is seeing the apartment any better or more truthful than seeing the TV?

I didn't mean to imply that it's better or more truthful. I mean to imply that it was previously outside of our scope. Once we have arrived in the alley way, we're on another plain. The pixels on the TV screen are outside of our scope of perception. They are like the microscopic plain: absolutely critical to the macroscopic plain, but not readily visible without some kind of perception enhancing device like a microscope.

Things are understood in relationship to each other. In an infinite continuum, any object is understood in relationship to infinite other objects of infinitely greater and lesser scale. And that's the key: because objects can only be distinguished by their relationship with other objects, and because the continuum sustaining those objects is infinite, there are infinite other objects, and therefore no basis to make any discernment between objects at all.

The only reason that people and things appear seperate to us, the only reason that human beings are able to make discernments between objects, has entirely to do with our own limited scope on reality. At present, our basic awareness only affords us a grasp of our immediate surroundings, and our higher perceptive faculties (memory, reasoning, imagination) afford us only a vauge and blurry picture of the rest of the world, the solar system, or if you are so inclined, the known universe. It's from this narrow scope that we conceive of ourselves as a fixed point of conciousness isolated in a bag of skin, operating very much in disharmony with other skin-ecapsulated egos whom we happen to encounter.

It's important to note, I think, that our present scope is presented as an inferior one only because it causes problems for us: it is an incomplete and inaccurate view of our environment which sustains a tremendous amount of conflict. It's because we don't understand that people and things are functioning as parts of a greater whole that we continue to come into conflict with each other and develop the wish to harm each other. We think that our own needs and desires are somehow unique from those of others, and then we think that our needs and desires are the most important, because, after all, we are the centre of the universe: we believe that everything we experience happens to us, and not with us. Since it's impossible for everybody to be the most important, when we approach the world this way it is very discordant.

At present, we think of ourselves as an individual operating alone for his or her own best interests. It is much more realistic, I think, to conceive of ourselves like a cell operating among billions of others as part of a single entity undergoing it's own developmental process. When cells of the human body begin to attack and operate against eachother, we call this AIDS. When human beings begin to attack and operate against eachother, they bring plauge to their entire community. Indeed, the notion that human beings are seperate from eachother, that they operate alone and with their own unique agenda, can be regarded as a life-threatening disease. The symptoms of that diease are manifesting all around us today in the form of pollution, overcrowding, corruption, global warming, war and terrorism, and this tremendous lack of self-respect that is becoming pervasive, especially in the west.


>> I guess what I'm saying is this paradigm doesn't grab me viscerally. I understand it cerebrally and see no problems with it, it is elegant and pleasing and internally consistent---but is it relevant?

It's quite relevant, I think, if we understand it intuitively, because it has the potential to change the way we interact with people and things. It's the idea that other people and objects are outside of our self, that they are totally different than our self, which sustains the potential for conflict to arise between people and situations. If we can learn to interpret our experiences in a more accurate, unified sense, we will not be so vulnerable to frustration and dissatisfaction. When there is an understanding of the essential unity of things, there is a foundation there for a genuine and spontaneous feeling of respect for people and the environment. That is what's needed to bring this world out of it's rolling boil: a genuine and spontaneous feeling of respect for the earth and all it's participants.

It's not necessary to contemplate such existential concepts to develop that feeling of respect, either. Consider the shirt you are wearing, and how it came to you. First, a cotton farmer had to till soil and cultivate the plant. He probably said a few prayers for abundant rain and, if his prayers were answered, he harvested after months of labor a complete crop. He sold his crop to cotton refineries who, through the contributions of hundreds or perhaps thousands of employees, processed the plants into workable material. Then, hundreds of workers at clothing manufacturers painstakingly sewed the shirt together. The shirt then passed through hundreds more hands as it was delivered to it's point of sale: and establishment brought into existence through the efforts of still more thousands of people making an effort. The shirt, now sitting on your back, represents the effort of innumerable persons working to bring a comfortable, pleasing article of clothing to you.

We might argue that nothing is free: that the people who worked on the farm, at the manufacturer, and in the store which sold the shirt to you were there so that they could make a living of their own. This is true, but not entirely relevant. All of those people put effort into an object which is now providing you with comfort and warmth. It does not matter if they labored for you: it matters that you are receiving benefit from their efforts. From out point of view, this is kindness.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Ped]
    #3750643 - 02/08/05 01:02 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

If you don't look you may never see.

Conversion(war). As if people could change on their own, they would like to know the path more or less steal the path of a man who sees more then one. Spiritual warriorism is strong psyche development. Spritual battle resembles battle from hand to hand. On both sides you see that you must have a strong mind and with a strong heart one can attack eachother in ways we do not know. Peace my friends is to forgive and forget. If i'd like to remember i'll just travel and find my way back to remember the things people do. Angry he was, a man with anger only travels paths that lead to more aggression. Jealousy. Thought experience, progression of the mind. Spiritual Warriorism.


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