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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: skystone]
    #3673655 -

skystone said:
That could quickly become the answer to everything

Imagine if early people explained lightning as a product of DMT in the brain...


That was mostly a joke because I don't believe this person saw what he saw one bit (or what he blamed what he saw on).

Funny enough, pretty much all of us see lightning and other natural phenomena.

That would be a logical argument against what I said if this person really saw this, but most people don't ever see "aliens".


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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: Swami]
    #3673659 -

I have a feeling that I am moving in the opposite direction of that. I feel like posting more of MY UFO stories. My last one got me a bad rating and several nasty PMs.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3673680 -

I would give him some benefit of doubt. I have seen at least 3 UFOs in my life...they were flying and I couldn't tell what they were hence they were UFOs. Were they spaceships??? I seriously doubt it.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3673787 -

Quote:
ld50negative1 said: but most people don't ever see "aliens".




He didn't say he saw an alien. He said he saw what he drew.

Ya know ET beings from other planets don't have to have anything to do with this type of unidentifyable craft. Consider that in the future, we figure out time travel and thats our own stuff coming back to observe earths past. That could be human made craft here on earth from our future.

Cue in twilight zone music now.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (01/24/05 06:48 PM)

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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: Ego Death]
    #3673819 -

bad ass drawing looks like to took a decade to complete. :grin:


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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3673891 -

Where does this defence stop?

Considering all these boarder-of-science phenomenons such as NDE's, UFO's it seems the first argument of sceptics is there is no evidence, then if someone comes with some experience, the second best argument is: it's a hallucination, then if there is more than one man experiencing it, then he is obviously lieing.
And in case there is some scientific reasearch done to it, it
must be faulty, done wrong, or the people conducting the experiments are not to be trusted.

THe logic of sceptics starts with the idea that "it is not true"
as a PREMISE, and not a CONCLUSION.

So since that is the premise, I suspect any valid scientific
data, even if done by every scientist in the world together would
be rejected because the logic goes like this:

1.A phenomenon is not true
2.There is a scientific evidence/ personal sighting etc.
-------------------------------------------------------
The evidence is faulty, and must be a mistake

I've never heard of that kind of logical conclusion


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: skystone]
    #3673956 -

They scare you? Most depiction of the gray aliens have them under 4' tall and almost no muscle mass. If one was trying to hurt me, I would kick it in the head.

And to the author of this thread: Considering your existence futile makes you liable to believe in extraterrestrials.


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Correlation is not causation!

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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: Signo]
    #3674014 -

yea...

It sort of the same as when you get scared of dried out corpses,
they are so think and "weak" and of course they can't move, but they give you the creeps.

Im not scared that they would attack me or something..
I'm just scared of being looked by them and looking at them


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: skystone]
    #3674143 -

Quote:
So since that is the premise, I suspect any valid scientific
data, even if done by every scientist in the world together would
be rejected because the logic goes like this:

1.A phenomenon is not true
2.There is a scientific evidence/ personal sighting etc.
-------------------------------------------------------
The evidence is faulty, and must be a mistake



You sure it is never
1. phenomenon is not true until you give proof
2. your 'proof' is anecdotal and unscientific, not conclusive
the evidence is faulty.......  :blush:

if you are sure ill bet you that i can give you many phenomena that people think is true and that you think the evidence for is faulty. why is UFOs being aliens any different?


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche


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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: oceansize]
    #3674196 -

That is the way it should be:

the phenomenon is not true if the evidence is faulty
evidence is faulty
--------
phenomenon is not true

this how logic works...

And it's not about UFO's being aliens, it's about everything
people consider "paranormal"

The problem is not scepticism, there is no reason why we should believe one thing or the other, it's a matter of taking roles.

The problem I see is that this scepticism does not ask for proof,
it just doesn't ask anything, it's a statement.
This scepticism asks for everyone to join it without further thinking,
it's like a religion : "come on son, enough of this foolishness, come back to us, to the right way"


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: skystone]
    #3674290 -

This is not blind skepticism being voiced here. The parent post has a HUGE hole in it's logic. The poster says he saw an object flying in the sky. He did not see aliens or go aboard the object...yet he assumes it is an alien spaceship. Where did this leap of logic come from. If I see an unidentified object in the sky...then it is just that, an unidentified object. Instantly surmising that it is an alien spaceship is very closed minded and presumptuous. How can anyone give such logic credibility? I have seen 3 such UFOs (unidentified flying objects-not spaceships) in my day...I still don't know what they were. To assume I know when I don't would be rash. They could have been a lot of things. When I was a teenager I might have speculated about spaceships, but we are adults here and we should demand higher standards of logic than that. I refuse to accept something intended to deceive in the interests of being polite.

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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3674325 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
This is not blind skepticism being voiced here. The parent post has a HUGE hole in it's logic. The poster says he saw an object flying in the sky. He did not see aliens or go aboard the object...yet he assumes it is an alien spaceship. Where did this leap of logic come from. If I see an unidentified object in the sky...then it is just that, an unidentified object. Instantly surmising that it is an alien spaceship is very closed minded and presumptuous. How can anyone give such logic credibility? I have seen 3 such UFOs (unidentified flying objects-not spaceships) in my day...I still don't know what they were. To assume I know when I don't would be rash. They could have been a lot of things. When I was a teenager I might have speculated about spaceships, but we are adults here and we should demand higher standards of logic than that. I refuse to accept something intended to deceive in the interests of being polite.


I'm not talking about that...it is true that he could no possibly know what was the nature of that object.

I was responding to that statement that the original poster must have been lieing. And I was talking about general scepticism I see on this forum.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: skystone]
    #3674377 -

I don't know about outright lying, but the post IS deceptive in the way it presents itself...perhaps not intentionally. The ability to observe phenomenon or behavior without making assumptions based on your personal preferences is a critical skill in finding the truth. We should all try to have this quality to some degree. I know from years of working in public safety and making reports that what people say they observe, or think they observe is rarely what happened. If you have ever been in a car accident and contrasted your report with the other party's report then you know what I am saying. It is very easy to feel (and understandably so) that the other person is lying.

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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3674417 -

Yes, usually the real experiences are toled from a point of view of a confused man not knowing what is going on.

But you must admit that many times we fake it just to sound more real.
We intentionally try not to draw conclusions when we are telling
stories of our experiences so that we sound more realistic.

So I believe this quality of true stories is as much forced as it is random, and therefore I don't see it always as an indication of what is true or not if you take my meaning.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: skystone]
    #3674448 -

skystone you seem to think something about skepticism is flawed or a negative......

but you know how you discover truth? you sit and listen to where tons of raw ideas are thrown around..... then you take a fuckoff big razor and shave all the bullshit away. in the skeptic's tradition, the razor is science. The skeptic may never believe anything but he will damn sure never believe anything that is not true.


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche


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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: oceansize]
    #3674483 -

I have noted many times that I have nothing about scepticism.

I am against scepticism that uses science in cases where it may
proof its own beliefs, and if it doesn't then throw it away..

One of the examples is the wast number of people (in this instance I'm not talking about this forum) that throw away quantim physics as bulshit just because it's agains their beliefs.

So as long as science rings true, it's ok, and if it starts sounding vierd, then what the hell do they know.

What is my idea of a healthy debative community?

Openminded people that periodically swich roles.
One minute I'll be a sceptic, the other I'll push ideas forward,
then when they get to far, I'll swich to sketic again.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: skystone]
    #3674571 -

"I am against scepticism that uses science in cases where it may
proof its own beliefs, and if it doesn't then throw it away.."

That sounds quite healthy......

when science proves something, the skeptic adopts it, when science disproves it, it is disguarded? Isn't that how science is supposed to work?


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche


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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: oceansize]
    #3674614 -

Quote:
The skeptic may never believe anything but he will damn sure never believe anything that is not true.



Where will that get you?

It seems to me that a certain leap of faith is required to believe anything, including the scientific method. There's a reason why the ancient school of skepticism died out. The skeptics had absolutely nothing to say about anything. There was no truth for them to teach. The ultimate irony of skepticism is that its one and only premise -It is impossible to know anything with certainty- contradicts itself. If it is impossible to know anything with certainty, then it is certainly impossible to know that you can't know anything.
Skepticism, at least in it's classical sense, is a dead end.




I believe in applying the principle of charity before applying the principle of consistency. First I listen to what someone has to say with a sympathetic ear, then I check to see if he contradicts himself. The important thing here is to check if he contradicts himself, not my own preconceived notions. This method allows me to get an Idea of where the person is coming from.

I don't see any dishonesty in danoEoboy's story. He begins by saying that he believes in extraterrestrial visitors to earth, and then relates his siting of what he believes to be one of their ships. This experience frightened him. I saw no attempt at proof, merely an anecdotal story.

What's wrong with letting him tell his story?

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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: shroomydan]
    #3674766 -

Well first, note I never responded to the first post. I agree with you on that.

"The ultimate irony of skepticism is that its one and only premise -It is impossible to know anything with certainty- contradicts itself."

True, this is why it is sometimes stated as "It is impossible to know anything with certainty, except for this statement, and I am not too sure about that."

But anyway the point is not what to know, but what can withstand a certain amount of scrutiny, to go from a fleeting idea to a concept proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So anyway, to answer

"Where will that get you?"

About as far as believing in invisible pink unicorns.


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche


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Re: Drawring's of my UFO encounter [Re: oceansize]
    #3674852 -

what I see happenning here is:
a person saw something with his friends a long time ago.
it has been labelled a UFO encounter as the appearance included what seemed to be flight.
Other people want to use the story in different ways.
It was so long ago and so spontaneous that there is nothing else that can be done about evidence or otherwise.
still people are excited to use this as a situation.
interesting how much extrapolating, judging, arguing.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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