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Invisiblemad_cow
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Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 317
Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Kickle]
    #10463827 - 06/06/09 11:12 PM (15 years, 11 days ago)

No, it is a spiritual system. Most indigenous people practice Animism as a religion. :rolleyes:
The things I mentioned are also the mexican and south american versions of what indigenous people believe. I don't know as much about other regions.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: mad_cow]
    #10463853 - 06/06/09 11:18 PM (15 years, 11 days ago)

I think you're missing my point. My issue is not with shamanism. I agree that it is a spiritual system. My issue was with you claiming what are required beliefs of shamanism, something that religious dogma does, and then further comparing it to a dogmatic religion.

Quote:

If you don't believe in those things it is like saying you are a Christian who doesn't believe in Jesus.





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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblemad_cow
He hates these cans!

Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 317
Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Kickle]
    #10463894 - 06/06/09 11:33 PM (15 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I think you're missing my point. My issue is not with shamanism. I agree that it is a spiritual system. My issue was with you claiming what are required beliefs of shamanism, something that religious dogma does, and then further comparing it to a dogmatic religion.

Quote:

If you don't believe in those things it is like saying you are a Christian who doesn't believe in Jesus.








Bad analogy on my part. Let's take yoga. Another spiritual system that is not considered a religion. There are common beliefs that make you fit into the label of yogi.

On the other hand as I am sure has been stated in this thread, the word shaman is siberian. There are medicine men, curanderos, brujos, ayahuasqueros, ect. in the americas. They all have similarities and differences.

I don't know what my point is, I just don't care anymore.

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Invisiblerebus_minus
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 667
Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread *DELETED* [Re: mad_cow]
    #10463927 - 06/06/09 11:42 PM (15 years, 11 days ago)

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

Edited by rebus_minus (06/06/09 11:43 PM)

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Invisiblemad_cow
He hates these cans!

Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 317
Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: rebus_minus]
    #10463970 - 06/06/09 11:53 PM (15 years, 11 days ago)

The 8 limbs of yoga are be what is believed to be the way to live to achieve enlightenment.

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Invisiblerebus_minus
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 667
Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread *DELETED* [Re: mad_cow]
    #10463988 - 06/06/09 11:58 PM (15 years, 11 days ago)

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

Edited by rebus_minus (06/07/09 12:56 AM)

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Invisiblemad_cow
He hates these cans!

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: rebus_minus]
    #10465196 - 06/07/09 10:24 AM (15 years, 11 days ago)

My authority is mainly georg feuerstein. I never said anything about rules. I said it is beliefs. The Shiva-Samhita talks about karma, nadis, and kundalini. These are beliefs about how the world and the human body work.

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Invisiblemad_cow
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: rebus_minus]
    #10465337 - 06/07/09 11:11 AM (15 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

rebus_minus said:

From my understanding you are wrong. There are not any beliefs that make you a yogi.



Quote:

rebus_minus said:

The Shiva-Samhita text defines the yogi as someone who knows that the entire cosmos is situated within his own body[.]





You have answered yourself. Yogis believe (or know) the entire cosmos is situated within his own body. Therefore there is a belief you must have to be a yogi.

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Invisiblerebus_minus
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread *DELETED* [Re: mad_cow]
    #10465946 - 06/07/09 01:29 PM (15 years, 10 days ago)

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: rebus_minus]
    #10536810 - 06/19/09 01:07 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

here are some interesting ideas about UFO sightings and abductions being not about aliens but about spirits from another dimension (shamanic spirits, plant teachers etc.)

To begin, we need a template of sorts for shamanic initiations in order to appreciate the extent to which such a template might indeed overlap with the underlying form of NDEs and UFOEs. Needless to say, given the enormous wealth of anthropological literature on shamanic initiation, any one model will be a patent oversimplification.

Nevertheless, even a crude and over-generalized outline of some of the main features of this kind of initiation will prove workable for our purposes. In any case, the following account is based chiefly on Eliade (1958, 1964), Nicholson (1987), and Kalweit (1988).

Typically, an individual who may be somewhat unusual because of his (or her) sensitivities or exceptional giftedness — or because he has survived a serious illness, accident, or other ordeal — is selected for shamanic training. He is then separated from his community and put into the hands of his shamanic trainer. The apprentice is required to undergo various ordeals, both physical and psychological, as his training progresses. Often, as is well known, these rites involve powerful dismemberment (and reconstitutive) motifs as the candidate undergoes a death-and-rebirth ordeal — a necessary component for all true initiations, of course, as well as the experiential foundations for a new sense of identity as a shaman. Sacred mysteries are disclosed to the individual as he learns to enter into otherworldly realms and acquires his particular shamanic skills, his power animals, sacred songs, secret language, and so forth. After his initiation is complete, he returns to his community as a healer, a psychopomp, a master of ecstasy, a mystic and visionary — as a man (or woman), in short, who now knows how to live in two worlds: the world of the soul as well as that of the body. And though indispensable to the welfare of his community, he often remains somewhat apart from it precisely because of his special knowledge and his unusual and sometimes disturbing presence.


---

Turning now to UFO encounters, we need to discover how well our model fits the case of the typical abductee.

Let's review, then, in somewhat greater detail than before the usual progression of events in these experiences in an attempt to test the utility of this model here.

In UFO abductions, the individual is “taken” (and I don't mean this in a physical sense, though abductees themselves sometimes do) when he is usually in some kind of an altered state of consciousness — asleep, in a state of helpless paralysis, or otherwise somehow entranced. Here, however, the figure of the cosmic shaman — this time in the form of a space-age E.T., as it were, but playing the selfsame role albeit in new garb — may make his appearance early on, or the abductee may be brought into his presence by a set of clone-like assistants. The next stage of the journey is “the examination” in which the individual, already usually highly uneasy if not frightened to the core, is forced to endure a variety of intrusive procedures — apparently the UFO equivalent of the initiatory ordeal or dismemberment ceremony. It's noteworthy, by the way, how often the abductee will say that this examination took place in a round or curved chamber. We know of course that a round hut or circular enclosure of some kind is a staple in traditional initiations, as Kannenberg (1986), herself a UFO abductee, has pointed out.

Rotunda-like structures can be taken to symbolize a womb or a place of new beginnings. In any event, following this ordeal, certain specific — I suppose one might say “classified” — information may be imparted telepathically as part of another act in the initiatory drama. Eventually, however, the abductee is somehow returned to his ordinary space/time world, though, as I have said, he may not have any immediate conscious recall of his traumatic adventure.

Yet he, too, like the NDEr, may come back shaken from his experience but with the seeds of transformation already sown in his psyche. While there are, to my knowledge, no careful long-term studies of the aftereffects of these UFO encounters,[3] preliminary work by Sprinkle (1981, 1983), Davis (1985), and others (e.g., Decker 1986) suggests that despite the grueling nature of these experiences, the after-effects, though variable, often show striking resemblances to the characteristics of NDEs.

And once more in common with NDErs, the UFO abductee may learn that his experience, though it has conferred upon him certain new skills, insights, and understandings, has also served to isolate him somewhat from his community. Like the NDEr, he, too, has had his passport stamped with an extramundane imprint and returns from his strange sojourn with divided and complicated allegiances to that world. As a result, he may find that he is inwardly conflicted and frequently estranged from his family and fellows, something of an alien himself.


---

Given that NDEs and UFOEs may be forms of shamanic initiation, we must now take this inquiry one step further and ask: What is it that those who have these experiences are being initiated into when they pass through these otherworldly domains?

In my view, whenever an individual undergoes a shamanic journey — whether through nearly dying, UFO abduction, or by other means — he is vaulted into the world of the imagination or, to use Henri Corbin's (1976) equivalent phrase, a mundus imaginalis. Let me be clear at the outset what I understand by this expression, whether it be the English or the Latin. James Hillman (1975) has insisted, and NDErs and shamans everywhere would quickly concur, that in the world of imagination, persons and places are fully real; they are as real in that domain as our physical world is to our senses.[4] So in using this expression, I am not implying that such experiences are imaginary, but rather that they are imaginal (again to use Corbin's helpful term). Imagination in this sense is, as Coleridge argued, a creative power, and the world that it reveals is, as Blake knew, a supersensible reality that can be directly apprehended.

Shamans, who see with the eyes of their soul, have also penetrated into this world and have given us peerless descriptions of its fabulous and infinitely varied regions and denizens. Indeed, the idea that shamanic experiences thrust individuals into this realm has lately started to serve as a unifying formulation for a number of writers. For instance, in Shirley Nicholson's excellent anthology on shamanism (1987), there are quite a few articles that articulate this notion admirably (see, for example, the pieces by Harner, Houston, Achterberg, and Noll). Likewise, in Carol Zaleski's brilliant book, Otherworld Journey (1987), she follows a similar interpretative line for NDEs.

Finally, Terrence McKenna (1982, 1984), another student of shamanism, has also argued for the primacy of the imagination in understanding UFO phenomena. These collective efforts, centered on the imaginal world and the power of the imagination to shape human experience, may eventually spawn a conceptual net of sufficient breadth to capture and order meaningfully the variety of non-ordinary experiences we considered at the beginning of this paper.

At any rate, this approach appears to be a most promising direction for conceptual work in this area, and deserves even more attention.

All this notwithstanding, what is important for us at this point in our inquiry is not just the recent popularity of this kind of formulation but rather the fact that through it we are led all the way back to Heraclitus — the father of psychology — and the seeming priority of the soul. From this perspective, of course, NDEs, UFOEs, and shamanic journeys in general are all explorations in the domain of soul, which, as Heraclitus seems to have been the first to assert, is infinite.[5] And, as Roberts Avens (1980) has pointed out, soul is not only inseparable from imagination, “soul is imagination” (p. 103).

Therefore, if shamanic experiences are to educate the soul, as I have claimed, they must necessarily do this by propelling us into the infinitude of the human imagination. The mundus imaginalis is our true home, which we are once more beginning to see and to experience directly. Again, as Avens has said: “Only soul (the imaginal realm) is not reducible to anything else and so constitutes our true, ontological reality” (p. 102).


---


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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10536812 - 06/19/09 01:07 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Shamanic Journeys and UFO Encounters:
A Consideration of Two Avenues to an Expanded Reality
by Sue Jamieson and Dr. John E. Mack
(Abstract follows)
    Shamanism and the study of what we in our Western culture call UFO “abductions” or “encounters” both involve other worlds with phenomenological differences and similarities. A comparative study of these has the potential to augment, advance, and expand our understanding of “reality.” With this end in view, we examine the similarities and differences between shamanic journeys and UFO encounters. Similarities (e.g. non-ordinary reality, altered space and time, other “beings”, reports of flying, moving through tunnels, light, healings, and other world families) exist between the essential reality of shamanic practices and journeys and UFO encounters. There are noticeable experiential differences especially with respect to “agency” in relation to the experience, the dimensional plane, or realm in which the experience occurs, and in the resultant physical and emotional trauma and there are circumstances within both experiences in which differences and similarities overlap and are difficult to distinguish.

    Many indigenous shamans and medicine people openly acknowledge UFO encounters as part of their reality and speak easily of myths and legends telling of peoples that come from the sky or the stars. Indigenous acknowledgments, coupled with collections of thousands of reports from experiencers, seem to be increasing public awareness and acceptance of the reality of the phenomenon within our own society. Mutual exploration of shamanism and the UFO encounter phenomenon can help us to expand the current paradigm of reality, extend our knowledge base, provide healing methods and techniques, and map the non-ordinary states of consciousness and realities. At the heart of our interest in subjects like shamanism and UFO encounters lies the desire to recover the vital information and wisdom lost through our turning away from traditional ways of knowing. Bringing the two studies together may lead to discoveries of the complex interplay of inner and outer reality, the relations of spirit to matter, and the possible existence of new physical domains and principles, plus capacities of our consciousness of which we have hardly dreamed.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10537385 - 06/19/09 02:38 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

If you think your a shaman your not.If you live in a village and people call you shaman you are. It is pretty cut and dry.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10537418 - 06/19/09 02:43 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

:andyistic:

i think the material i brought up in the previous pages shows the fallacies of that opinion.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10537450 - 06/19/09 02:47 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Shaman is a title inferred by a social group...specifically the social group of the Tungus Tribe in Siberia. The only shamans are Tungus. The word has been badly misappropriated. Read Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy by Eliade for a back ground in this. He didn't believe in that heathen shit and wished it would go away, but he chronicled it well.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10537468 - 06/19/09 02:50 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Here is what a shaman looks like. Look in the mirror and compare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SB_-_Altay_shaman_with_gong.jpg


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10537481 - 06/19/09 02:52 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

the word "shaman" is a word representing a certain person. the word itself is irrelevant. the word came into existence only because the first reports about these medicine men came back from tungus and the word stuck.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10537522 - 06/19/09 02:59 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Your wrong. It is a culture specific term. American Indians do not like the term even be applied to them. They prefer their traditional titles.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10537540 - 06/19/09 03:01 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

:andyistic:

the name doesn't change the phenomena that takes place in all cultures.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10537680 - 06/19/09 03:24 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Nor does your desire to be something you simply are not.

It is normal to want to rationalize your love for psychedelics by pretending it means something.

It doesn't...


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Fiddlesticks.


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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rose]
    #10537745 - 06/19/09 03:31 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

well... this thread isn't really about psychedelics but the symptoms of shamanic initiation and about the related phenomena. psychedelics is just the dominant angle of the shroomery and the best angle for this topic to be approached imo.


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