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InvisibleBridgeburner
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THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation***
    #10396250 - 05/25/09 02:17 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

i've seen a lot of "i'm a shaman" threads around here and each time lots of people have angrily mocked the poster and ridiculed him with (undeserved imo) anger and some other negative undertones. from what i've read and experienced shamanism is something that's happening to people in the western society.

here are some basics about how people usually found the calling about becoming a shaman:

Quote:

Shamanism, like many other "isms," is a Western construct, and issues of gender and sexuality play into this construct in various ways. Shamanism has been used since the eighteenth century to describe various people in indigenous ("tribal") communities who might also be termed "medicine men," "witch doctors," "healers," and "sorcerers"; those people who engage with "spirits" for certain socially sanctioned tasks.

Shamans may be identified as such from birth, through an initiatory sickness, or a calling from the spirits; only rarely is the vocation taken up voluntarily. Shamanic practices may include healing the sick, controlling game, altering consciousness, journeying to other worlds, speaking to spirits or becoming possessed by them, even forming marriages and sexual relationships with powerful "spirit-helpers."




what interests me the most is the initiatory sickness.

Quote:

Historically, shamanism has been confused with schizophrenia by anthropologists because shamans often speak of altered state experiences in the spirit world as if they were "real" experiences. While the shaman and the person in a psychotic episode both have unusual access to spiritual and altered state experiences, shamans are trained to work in the spirit world, while the psychotic person is simply lost in it.

But in many traditional cultures, psychotic episodes have served as an initiatory illness that calls a person into shamanism. Mircea Eliade writes:

      The future shaman sometimes takes the risk of being mistaken for a "madman". . .but his "madness" fulfills a mystic function; it reveals certain aspects of reality to him that are inaccessible to other mortals, and it is only after having experienced and entered into these hidden dimensions of reality that the "madman" becomes a shaman. (Mircea Eliade. Myths, Dreams, and Mysteries. New York: Harper and Row, 1960. Page 80-81)



Quote:


As the person accepts the calling and becomes a shaman, their illness usually disappears. The "self-cure of a psychosis" is so typical of the shaman that some anthropologists have argued that anyone without this experience should be described only as a healer. The concept of the "wounded healer" addresses the necessity of the shaman-to-be entering into extreme personal crisis in preparation of his/her role in the community as a healer (Halifax, Joan. Shamanic Voices. New York: Dutton, 1979)..




Quote:

When someone is called to become a shaman this Call
is often accompanied by a period of physical or mental distress or
illness. A potential shaman may then elect to avoid that calling or
may decide to seek training and begin to shamanize. (Among the Tungus
of Siberia, from whom the word 'shaman' originates, the word is in
fact used both as a noun and as a verb. In English, the verb form is
'to shamanize'.)

The first task the new or prospective shaman must face then is to
master his or her own condition and this experience becomes an
essential part of what resources may thereafter be drawn upon when
shamanizing or engaging in shamanic healing or other activities. The
personal experience of those shamans who do encounter
such an initial period of 'shamanic sickness' is characteristic of
the role of personal experience in the way of shamans worldwide.
Overcoming this initial period of illness or distress, when it is
encountered, and which may be brief or last for many years, provides
shamans with the type of experience which is considered absolutely
necessary for their work as shamans. As self therapy, it also enables
the shaman to participate in the day-to-day life of the community
(which may not have been possible while in the throws of shamanic
sickness.)






hope some of you bothered to read through it all. this of great interest to me personally and i hope some of you have some ideas about all this stuff.


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Edited by Bridgeburner (06/19/09 01:02 PM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10396293 - 05/25/09 02:24 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

If you try to pick up chicks at a family reunion...

You just might be a shaman.


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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10396304 - 05/25/09 02:25 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

how's that helpful to a discussion :mad2:?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10396345 - 05/25/09 02:33 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

My bad. :blush: Thought this was the "You might be a redneck" thread. :sorry:


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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10396377 - 05/25/09 02:41 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

your mistake indeed!


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10396407 - 05/25/09 02:46 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

*crawls into a hole to hide*


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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10396442 - 05/25/09 02:52 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

o come out ye faithful


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Invisibledeimya
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10396807 - 05/25/09 03:52 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

The scar of the shaman grows different in its intricacy. It takes shape in the shaman's habits and discourses and his pact with the community depends only slightly on his particular mystical experiences. He's an oak amongst the ferns, producing a different sound when the wind blows.

In that sense it might be that his spiritual and physical healing aptitudes, if any, depends more on swaying one's mind and body away and steer it back to rest in a hopefully diseaseless state, rather than targeting a particular ailment using diagnostics. Kick the patient over the forest instead of making him crawl along a convoluted path. In both cases you lend somewhere anyway.

That's my 2¢

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OfflineFraggin
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: deimya]
    #10397988 - 05/25/09 07:07 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

deimya said:
The scar of the shaman grows different in its intricacy. It takes shape in the shaman's habits and discourses and his pact with the community depends only slightly on his particular mystical experiences. He's an oak amongst the ferns, producing a different sound when the wind blows.

In that sense it might be that his spiritual and physical healing aptitudes, if any, depends more on swaying one's mind and body away and steer it back to rest in a hopefully diseaseless state, rather than targeting a particular ailment using diagnostics. Kick the patient over the forest instead of making him crawl along a convoluted path. In both cases you lend somewhere anyway.

That's my 2?




Ferns thrive in oak leaf clutter..... That and occasional rain is all they need to grow...

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10398024 - 05/25/09 07:13 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

I think Shamanism may be reasonably understood as a user's attempt to assert a role that does not exist in his society. For instance, this might be to say that there are other purposes for doing mushrooms besides "recreational" (illegal).

And what other purposes are there, eh?

As your post seems to allude, there is a certain controversy when someone declares shamanism, because the claim seems to fall anywhere between being an ordinary devotee and enlightenment, depending on interpretation. That, I think is why so many of "our own" seem to resent this claim, and it may also be why it isn't formally accepted as a tradition.

"He claims he is a shaman? How presumptuous."

The reason that the line between devotee and enlightenment is hard to conceptualize, is due in great part to that there is no consenting society, no "matrix" to claim enlightenment of (in concept/form). No doubt, there is a certain interplay or translation between individual and cultural consciousness, that is greatly influencing our discourse. So in a certain sense, the typical controversy that you might run into here is just another complexity of propaganda.

That's one way of looking at it.

But also, more existentially if you will, this internal criticism is just one way to deal with formalism that happens to be negative, where established traditions have obviously encountered the problem in positive.

For instance, the Buddhists can much more easily recognize the difference between a "Buddhist" and a "Buddha", if only initially. There is a clearly drawn out, and formally recognized matrix for realization. But with that, they must face the dogmas of their speculation. Its what they call "Dharma burden". If you think about it, this is the same basic problem of an "ostensible enlightenment", only formalized. Its a problem in all formalized traditions.



--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (05/25/09 07:25 PM)

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OfflineFraggin
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: daytripper23]
    #10398082 - 05/25/09 07:22 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

Depends on your perspective. A Shaman can be a man that has a continuously open mind. A shaman can be the neighbor that grows his own herbs and spices and uses garlic and vinegar to cure everything.

The path into shamanism is entirely dependant upon culture. AFIK, there's no formal term yet for all of these Urban Neo-Shamans that pop up from time to time. Just part of growing up I suppose. Someone smokes a bit of salvia, then all of a sudden, their passion becomes the path to knowledge, wisdom and understanding, and the coolest way to coin it is to call it shamanism.

But, theres nothing wrong with that. That, in its rawest form, is birth into the work of the shaman. But, the path must remain traveled and the virtues remain true. Else, you may end up a plumber or landscaper and leave the shaman work behind.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10398255 - 05/25/09 08:05 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

Shamans don't exist anymore.
Looking for such an individual by that title, is a mistake.
Looking for such an individual by the description, is more accurate.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10398367 - 05/25/09 08:23 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

"I think I might be a shaman"... When? If they are already a shaman, wouldn't they know it rather than just "think they might be". If they already know, then what are they doing getting on a message board saying "I think I might be a shaman"? Quite incongruous. Unless that's just what shamans do. I don't know, is that what shamans do?

There's a BIG difference between what people 'think' they are and what they actually are. For instance, I might think I'm a doctor, but that doesn't mean I am. In order to become a doctor I have to qualify as a doctor and then practice as a doctor... until then, what right do I have in calling myself a doctor. Same goes with being a shaman. There are things a person needs to do to become a shaman and then they have to practice as a shaman before they can rightfully call themself a shaman. In the meantime, someone saying "I think I might be a shaman" is equivalent to children pretending to be doctors. It might be a fun fantasy, but lacks the substance to be taken as anything more than a fantasy.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Mufungo]
    #10398458 - 05/25/09 08:36 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

:yesnod:
If a shaman does still exist, it is so far from it's initial roots as to be a completely different creature.

I'm of the opinion that a true 'shaman' would not take on the title of 'shaman'. Because a shaman is a healer who operates within societal bounds, as well as outside of. Walking that thin line.

A shaman as per the historical figure, would simply walk outside the societal boundaries currently in place. Why not leave the title 'shaman' in the past where it belongs, and move on to more modern descriptions?

This isn't to say that people don't still prescribe to the beliefs of shamanism, but the initial role of the shaman would need to shift with society in order to maintain the goal of community healer.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Kickle]
    #10398605 - 05/25/09 09:03 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

I don't think there are many occupations in the modern age which haven't come a long way from their initial roots.

Does it really matter if a shaman of today isn't like a shaman of long ago (assuming that there really were "shamans" long ago)?  I guess it might depend on one's own values around tradition.


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InvisibleQuetzalcohuatl
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Mufungo]
    #10398750 - 05/25/09 09:34 PM (15 years, 1 day ago)

don't get caught up in semantics just focus on the underlying meaning of things, what it is is more important than what people call it and people are biased by their own subjective state of mind

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Quetzalcohuatl]
    #10398930 - 05/25/09 10:09 PM (15 years, 23 hours ago)

schizophrenia isn't that bad you always have someone to talk to

and shamans are from fucking siberia not the fucking amazon

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Mufungo]
    #10398958 - 05/25/09 10:13 PM (15 years, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

Mufungo said:
I don't think there are many occupations in the modern age which haven't come a long way from their initial roots.

Does it really matter if a shaman of today isn't like a shaman of long ago (assuming that there really were "shamans" long ago)?  I guess it might depend on one's own values around tradition.




True that. I'm speaking from my personal values and my cultural surroundings.

I get the feeling that most everyone who posts here shares my culture, though. And in our culture, the shaman of old would be incredibly ineffective, except for purposes of stroking the ego. "I'm magic" and all that, which in my opinion, isn't about healing.

And yeah, a lot of my personal values are  being interlaced.

Just saying it how I see it.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Quetzalcohuatl]
    #10398995 - 05/25/09 10:18 PM (15 years, 23 hours ago)

Quetzalcohuatl, Have you got/had schizophrenia or have you any experience with other people who experience schizophrenia? I was just curious, feel free to tell me to get f@#ked.

Quote:

Wikipedia said:
Shamanism is a range of traditional beliefs and practices concerned with communication with the spirit world. A practitioner of shamanism is known as a shaman, pronounced /ˈʃɑːmən/, /ˈʃeɪmən/, (|ˈshämən; ˈshā-|) noun (pl. -man(s)).[2] There are many variations of shamanism throughout the world and several common beliefs are shared by all forms of shamanism. Shamans are intermediaries between the human and spirit worlds. According to believers, they can treat illness and are capable of entering supernatural realms to provide answers for human beings.[3]




This is the sort of shamanism I think we're discussing.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Mufungo]
    #10399022 - 05/25/09 10:24 PM (15 years, 23 hours ago)

I think I backlashed a bit hard against the title of shaman.

I think the main thing I want to get across, and have considered, is that many who are 'shamans' do not title themselves shamans, because our current society has another name for them.

Such talents are still useful, when used in a way that benefits society. The way they benefit will be ever shifting, and the title attributed to the shaman will also change.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Kickle]
    #10399055 - 05/25/09 10:30 PM (15 years, 23 hours ago)

Ever see that video where Jack Black drops acid? At one point, he hears his buddy calling him and he says "Jack? My name is not Jack, nobody can label my essence!" (Later they find out they never dropped acid in the first place)

You do have a point - in your first post too, but this existential integrity also seems to stagnate our ability to communicate the experience, even if the intention maybe to elucidate it:

First of all, to those in the know (within), the nod of one shaman to another... I don't see why any such communication is necessary. (Unfortunately, I think this is where many arguments tend to fall, by petty egotism or elitism; but that is beside the point.)

The importance of communication, is only the concern of translation between the within and without, by whatever degree of separation this happens to be.

Compare it to the alternative, where our modern descriptors do not seem to carry this respect, whether it is a seeker in respect to a "genuine" neo-shaman, or a neo-shaman in respect to a society that would lock him up. Put it this way, finding a shaman would be like finding a guru, where an amount of skepticism should be implied anyhow, and having a bit of dharma burden, the outlines of an essentialist myth, is arguably much better than facing incarceration for whatever reason. (legal or psychotic)

To that, a label which does not call carry tradition is not going to have any more authority than "hippies", "psychonauts", and the "new age" movement in general. An existential integrity of communication may be a step back from the corruptions of a language, but how useful is this? Its always the Jack Black scenario, as I understand it. Existentialism is not a rule of language, but a card that can be played when necessary. The only realistic rule of language is in whatever "effectively" communicates, that is the only authority.

It is just a word after all; perhaps it would be better to acknowledge the impreciseness and malleability of language, and to simply to communicate, even if it is to contrive to and compromise that descriptor - not under the essentialist illusion, but as social.

Basically, what I am saying is the term could used to assert a livelihood, a moral sway, rather than what our current situation is, as the fresh subject of "civilized" marginalization. That is what happens to existential integrity, it is taboo or neurotic until it somehow gains a basis in tradition.

I am not sure what I think. Maybe psychedelics are meant to be underground in modern society, and maybe that is what makes them genuinely existential. I believe that too. Indeed, its almost silly to imagine of any other reality.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Kickle]
    #10399068 - 05/25/09 10:32 PM (15 years, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Mufungo said:
I don't think there are many occupations in the modern age which haven't come a long way from their initial roots.

Does it really matter if a shaman of today isn't like a shaman of long ago (assuming that there really were "shamans" long ago)?  I guess it might depend on one's own values around tradition.




True that. I'm speaking from my personal values and my cultural surroundings.

I get the feeling that most everyone who posts here shares my culture, though. And in our culture, the shaman of old would be incredibly ineffective, except for purposes of stroking the ego. "I'm magic" and all that, which in my opinion, isn't about healing.

And yeah, a lot of my personal values are  being interlaced.

Just saying it how I see it.




That's cool. Thanks for sharing.

I believe that shamanism is a little out of place in western culture at the moment too. Mainly because our culture lacks a history of it. But from what I can tell, shamanism is growing in popularity in western culture. So if there are people here now who are shaman practicing shamanism with/on clients, then I can't see any reason why a history of shamanism in western cultures can't begin. (on a side note, what word other than 'western' can I use to represent 'our' culture? If there's a better word, please let me know cause I don't like the word 'western')  I compare it to Chinese medicine being practiced in western culture.. 20 years ago it was a little strange for Chinese medicine to be practiced in western culture, now it's widely accepted and even covered by some health insurance schemes.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: daytripper23]
    #10399087 - 05/25/09 10:35 PM (15 years, 23 hours ago)

Etymology:

shaman:
    1698, "priest of the Ural-Altaic peoples," probably via Ger. Schamane, from Rus. shaman, from Tungus shaman, which is perhaps from Chinese sha men "Buddhist monk," from Prakrit samaya-, from Skt. sramana-s "Buddhist ascetic."

Language evolves so do traditions. How do they relate?


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10399186 - 05/25/09 10:53 PM (15 years, 22 hours ago)

The argument the shaman haters often use is that these people making the claim are most likely white suburban kids.

I dont see how this is relevant at all.

If the art of shamanism has any truth to it who would need vectors for spiritual communication the most?

Those in touch with their spiritual side or those who are losing all touch with everything spiritual and natural about life?

Seems to me that if their were "spirits" that attempt to communicate with living organisms they may seek those furthest from their spiritual side.

White suburban culture fits that description.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: daytripper23]
    #10399190 - 05/25/09 10:54 PM (15 years, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

Maybe psychedelics are meant to be underground in modern society, and maybe that is what makes them genuinely existential. I believe that too. Indeed, its almost silly to imagine of any other reality.




This is where I always end up.

Quote:

Existentialism is not a rule of language, but a card that can be played when necessary.




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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Kickle]
    #10400487 - 05/26/09 05:42 AM (15 years, 16 hours ago)

to clarify it up i'm talking about shamanism in today's world.

a shaman is someone who keeps in touch with the spiritual world by traveling there in an altered state of mind (trance, sleep, MAYBE drugs), heals ailments, has ESP-related abilities and who has some degree of clairvoyance. these are just some general points that popped to my head.

a shaman never proclaims himself to be carrying that title: the people surrounding him gradually realize he/she is different or has some unnatural abilities.

the general lines of being initiated by the "other world" into the profession of shamanism is apparent in our culture and cultures all around the globe. the western society lumps it into mental illnesses category and denies all possibility of a psychosis having a positive effect. the shamans in siberia were arrested by the soviets because they saw them as madmen and frauds, ending up sending the shamans into insane asylums.

with no real tribal systems or initiation rites the western world is in a deep spiritual crisis, or that's my opinion anyway. we are hung up on words by either being imprisoned by them or using them carelessly until words lose all value.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10400849 - 05/26/09 08:43 AM (15 years, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
a shaman never proclaims himself to be carrying that title: the people surrounding him gradually realize he/she is different or has some unnatural abilities.




Says who?  Is a shaman not allowed to take pride in his own abilities and categorize himself as a shaman if he indeed matches the description?


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: deCypher]
    #10401002 - 05/26/09 09:26 AM (15 years, 12 hours ago)

in most ancient cultures a shaman wasn't someone who worked towards becoming one but a diseased (mentally or physically) person who nearly died due to the sickness but then recovered "miraculously". once healed he (or she) started to perform feats which were unusual. thus the surrounding populous treated that person as a holy man and called him a healer, shaman or something in the lines of that.

taking pride in being able to have such powers seems strange to me because the insights the shaman supposedly possesses deflate the ego quite a bit. plus pride would give very little to his craft imo.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10401016 - 05/26/09 09:28 AM (15 years, 12 hours ago)

i used to get a strain of weed that made me levitate

it was swweet

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10401035 - 05/26/09 09:32 AM (15 years, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
in most ancient cultures a shaman wasn't someone who worked towards becoming one but a diseased (mentally or physically) person who nearly died due to the sickness but then recovered "miraculously". once healed he (or she) started to perform feats which were unusual. thus the surrounding populous treated that person as a holy man and called him a healer, shaman or something in the lines of that.




I know, but what's to prevent a person from going through such a sickness, performing miraculous feats, and then recognizing his own shamanhood?  Does one necessarily have to get society's approval before one can call one's self a shaman?

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
taking pride in being able to have such powers seems strange to me because the insights the shaman supposedly possesses deflate the ego quite a bit. plus pride would give very little to his craft imo.




Would it be safe to say that Brujos and Curanderos fulfill the shaman role?  If so then Brujeria would definitely involve some form of egoistic pride IMO.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: deCypher]
    #10401119 - 05/26/09 09:46 AM (15 years, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

what's to prevent a person from going through such a sickness, performing miraculous feats




Um, because miraculous feats are impossible. Shamans were never in touch with the Spirit World, they were just adept at selling that idea to the populace.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: deCypher]
    #10401164 - 05/26/09 09:58 AM (15 years, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
in most ancient cultures a shaman wasn't someone who worked towards becoming one but a diseased (mentally or physically) person who nearly died due to the sickness but then recovered "miraculously". once healed he (or she) started to perform feats which were unusual. thus the surrounding populous treated that person as a holy man and called him a healer, shaman or something in the lines of that.




I know, but what's to prevent a person from going through such a sickness, performing miraculous feats, and then recognizing his own shamanhood?  Does one necessarily have to get society's approval before one can call one's self a shaman?

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
taking pride in being able to have such powers seems strange to me because the insights the shaman supposedly possesses deflate the ego quite a bit. plus pride would give very little to his craft imo.




Would it be safe to say that Brujos and Curanderos fulfill the shaman role?  If so then Brujeria would definitely involve some form of egoistic pride IMO.




i don't think no one is gonna call himself "shaman". it's not a car mechanics class that you graduate, get a title and then get on with your job. i think the society starts calling him a shaman because that's what everyone thinks a shaman does.

i think different regions have different attitudes towards this sort of a state. each cultural reality tunnel creates a different attitude, some are more withdrawn and quiet, others more loud and expressive. but it wouldn't be safe to say because words generally are very dangerous in the right hands.


Quote:

Um, because miraculous feats are impossible. Shamans were never in touch with the Spirit World, they were just adept at selling that idea to the populace.




that's your perception.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10401169 - 05/26/09 10:02 AM (15 years, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Um, because miraculous feats are impossible.




Proof?


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: deCypher]
    #10401183 - 05/26/09 10:05 AM (15 years, 11 hours ago)

How long you been here now?

Miracles are relegated to an age when men were less rational and superstition was rife.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10401188 - 05/26/09 10:07 AM (15 years, 11 hours ago)

That's not proof, but I'll admit it's persuasive evidence.  My point is that just because you've never seen a miracle does not make their existence logically impossible.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10401217 - 05/26/09 10:12 AM (15 years, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Um, because miraculous feats are impossible. Shamans were never in touch with the Spirit World, they were just adept at selling that idea to the populace.





I've always found the folie a deux phenomenon to be interesting in this context.

What makes an individual who is near a schizophrenic individual, begin to see what the schizophrenic sees? Close interpersonal relationship seems to be a must, or trust if you will. Also, by todays standards, social isolation or a lack of societal explanations.

Trust and a lack of alternative explanation = both people experiencing the delusion?

Can we really be convinced of reality so easily? Does it merely take someone telling us what we're seeing, or should be seeing, in order for us to see it? Can the mind really create what it feels it should see? If so, how can we ever be sure that society is accurate in any way, regardless of time period?


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10401489 - 05/26/09 11:21 AM (15 years, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
How long you been here now?

Miracles are relegated to an age when men were less rational and superstition was rife.




are you saying that age has changed? we are still irrational and superstitious.

miracle is something that happens despite all opposition or explanation. you can rationalize everything if you try hard enough. being stuck in a skeptic's reality tunnel makes the skeptic the opposite of a christian who believes in miracles: if a statue of a madonna cries tears of blood both the skeptic and the christian have abundant arguments about how it's a miracle/a natural occurrence. a skeptic is never skeptic about his own beliefs, which is why they are just as fallible as the point they're trying to argue against.

this thread isn't about proving something to someone who has pre-decided all proof against their view is faulty in one way or another anyway.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10401490 - 05/26/09 11:21 AM (15 years, 10 hours ago)

A miracle sometimes can only be explained by a (yet) hidden cause. We also could simply call that coincidence before we know the cause.
'Getting in touch' with a spiritual world doesn't make sense of course if one lacks the concept of a spiritual world. This concept maybe is the most easiest to understand when it happens to oneself.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #10401518 - 05/26/09 11:27 AM (15 years, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
A miracle sometimes can only be explained by a (yet) hidden cause. We also could simply call that coincidence before we know the cause.
Getting in touch with a spiritual world doesn't make sense of course if one lacks the concept of a spiritual world.





i agree. focusing on trying to rationalize the impossible is a useless task. "miracle" is a substitute word for an event we don't know the cause yet. if a person has cancer and goes to a person who has been known to make the cancer go away and his cancer DOES go away after visiting the shaman/healer then you may see it as a miracle because you can't explain it and the shaman's explanation does not fit into the current society's reality tunnel anyway. so when you have to choose between a weird explanation and no explanation naturally you're gonna choose "no explanation" so it would not shake your dogmas that much.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10401555 - 05/26/09 11:36 AM (15 years, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

if a statue of a madonna cries tears of blood




Seeeing as how it has yet to happen, it is hard to make a strong argument with a hypothetical. Analysis on such statues has shown colored oil, but nary a trace of hemoglobin.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10401576 - 05/26/09 11:43 AM (15 years, 10 hours ago)

when a priest says magic words over a piece of bread it becomes the body of a jew that supposedly died 2000 years ago.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10401611 - 05/26/09 11:52 AM (15 years, 10 hours ago)

I took a communion wafer to the DNA lab and guess what?


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread *DELETED* [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10401630 - 05/26/09 11:57 AM (15 years, 9 hours ago)

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: rebus_minus]
    #10401745 - 05/26/09 12:23 PM (15 years, 9 hours ago)

point being a person on his way becoming a shaman is on his own and once the initiation appears to have ended there is no need to "prove" anything to anyone but develop his craft and try to help people out.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10401773 - 05/26/09 12:27 PM (15 years, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
point being a person on his way becoming a shaman is on his own and once the initiation appears to have ended there is no need to "prove" anything to anyone but develop his craft and try to help people out.




Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
i don't think no one is gonna call himself "shaman". it's not a car mechanics class that you graduate, get a title and then get on with your job. i think the society starts calling him a shaman because that's what everyone thinks a shaman does.




Aren't these contradictory statements?  :confused:


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: deCypher]
    #10401804 - 05/26/09 12:35 PM (15 years, 9 hours ago)

*opinions

what society sees him and what the person himself sees himself as are two different thing, of course.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10402242 - 05/26/09 02:07 PM (15 years, 7 hours ago)

So a Shaman is defined as being someone who helps others through spiritual methods?

Hmm.

That's too bad, I've always thought of myself as being a Shaman.. but only in the healing sense. I don't think I could ever see myself being some sort of psychic who "channels spiritual power" to heal the mind. My version of "shamanism" is helping people by having spiritual experiences with them, using psychedelics like mushrooms or lsd to help them open their mind and to mend it.

And when I say "I've always thought of myself as being a Shaman.." I mean more or less that I've thought over time that being a person that helps others by having spiritual experiences with them is something I'd love to do. I'm a people person and a problem solver, I love psychedelics and have already realized their importance in my life, and I can only think of no better way then to put all these together then by being a shaman. So, am I wrong or right about that? Is what I'm going after a shamanism idea or is it something completely different?

I guess in a typical sense how it would be is like, I have a clinic with a bunch of rooms and "shamans", who sit down with you for a period of time to go through a spiritual experience aided by psychedelic substances. Using proper methods and techniques I think something real could happen with this - you know, helping people. That's all I want to do; I want to improve the quality of living for others.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: psychedelia56]
    #10402340 - 05/26/09 02:29 PM (15 years, 7 hours ago)

Shaman is a siberian term. And the whole idea of shamanism is based on communication between this world and the spirit world...

I feel that the term shaman has come to be adopted by the enthogenic-using generation to coin their heightend awareness of the ethereal world. Though I don't agree that simply acknowledging this other dimension exists makes one a practicioner of spirit/terra communications. It may make one receptive, but to attune yourself with the spirit world is more of a calling and a lifestyle. If you own an xbox, you are not a shaman.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Fraggin]
    #10402470 - 05/26/09 02:54 PM (15 years, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Um, because miraculous feats are impossible. Shamans were never in touch with the Spirit World, they were just adept at selling that idea to the populace.





I've always found the folie a deux phenomenon to be interesting in this context.

What makes an individual who is near a schizophrenic individual, begin to see what the schizophrenic sees? Close interpersonal relationship seems to be a must, or trust if you will. Also, by todays standards, social isolation or a lack of societal explanations.

Trust and a lack of alternative explanation = both people experiencing the delusion?

Can we really be convinced of reality so easily? Does it merely take someone telling us what we're seeing, or should be seeing, in order for us to see it? Can the mind really create what it feels it should see? If so, how can we ever be sure that society is accurate in any way, regardless of time period?




That is a psychological study I would be interested in seeing.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Fraggin]
    #10402481 - 05/26/09 02:55 PM (15 years, 6 hours ago)

tricksters serve an important role

some people think clowns are sinister and scary some see them as funny

we all have egos and the need to protect ourselves

sometimes laughter is better medicine than the straight up to the rope dopety dope

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Fraggin]
    #10402568 - 05/26/09 03:14 PM (15 years, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

If you own an xbox, you are not a shaman.




I don't even know what an xbox is; therefore I am a shaman!


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10402573 - 05/26/09 03:15 PM (15 years, 6 hours ago)

I don't know what a fallacy is, therefore, I am infalliable.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10402574 - 05/26/09 03:15 PM (15 years, 6 hours ago)

i am a shaman because I shop at i am scammin i mean i shaman

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Quetzalcohuatl]
    #10402654 - 05/26/09 03:37 PM (15 years, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

If you own an xbox, you are not a shaman.




Are you saying that shamanism is a game for the xbox?

Count me in.

.

Seriously though, If we were to venture the most objective definition wouldn't it be defined by the material substances?

The hardware?

If it was shaman, couldn't it be a crappy shaman, a shaman who doesn't deserve his title, and by that I mean one who as a subject to discourse, might or not might deserve to be listened to because his xbox strategy sucks? For instance, OC could refer the shaman as he does any guru. Nothing special besides material circumstances.

What is wrong with that?


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Quetzalcohuatl]
    #10402655 - 05/26/09 03:37 PM (15 years, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

So a Shaman is defined as being someone who helps others through spiritual methods?

Hmm.

That's too bad, I've always thought of myself as being a Shaman.. but only in the healing sense. I don't think I could ever see myself being some sort of psychic who "channels spiritual power" to heal the mind. My version of "shamanism" is helping people by having spiritual experiences with them, using psychedelics like mushrooms or lsd to help them open their mind and to mend it.




no. that's what i've been trying to say, that "shaman" is a common word that generally points to the person committing these deeds previously mentioned. you can call it whatever but "shaman" is the nomenclature most mentioned in older societies.

this can be illustrated as defining someone who is native american.
"a native american is someone who looks like i think a native american should look like. anyone not looking like i define it is not a native american, despite all claims to support that".

and shamanism is very personal. various people have various methods and no masters. sometimes older shamans guide the young but this is rare. generally through history shamans have listened to their inner self/voices/spirits/hunch to develop HIGHLY INDIVIDUAL METHODS.

Quote:

And when I say "I've always thought of myself as being a Shaman.." I mean more or less that I've thought over time that being a person that helps others by having spiritual experiences with them is something I'd love to do. I'm a people person and a problem solver, I love psychedelics and have already realized their importance in my life, and I can only think of no better way then to put all these together then by being a shaman. So, am I wrong or right about that? Is what I'm going after a shamanism idea or is it something completely different?




i'd say you are aware of what you are doing (a degree of enlightenment) with the purpose of aiding those in need. what i think is needed is to drop labeling everything and then trying to fit that label. i see psychedelics as a tool, not an end in itself and it would be great if you'd try to develop your skills as a helper to aid people without those drugs because they are not gonna be there for you forever.
you have the right idea but i suggest you read on a wide variety of subjects, like how psychology and science sees shamanism, how anthropology sees it and how one has traditionally become a shaman. the more you learn the more freedom you have in yourself to maneuver.


Quote:

I guess in a typical sense how it would be is like, I have a clinic with a bunch of rooms and "shamans", who sit down with you for a period of time to go through a spiritual experience aided by psychedelic substances. Using proper methods and techniques I think something real could happen with this - you know, helping people. That's all I want to do; I want to improve the quality of living for others.




these days a psychologist is a shaman. the old goddesses and gods have been turned into archetypes and inner selves. i have seen a lot of people on these boards looking for an "authentic" image of a shamanic session. this is a pitfall of absurdity imo, there is no authentic shamanism. shamanism has never been a school or a course, it's been a spontaneous event taking place on different places on the globe without each others aid.

in your case i would just forget terms "shamanism" and spirituality and focus on whats going on now: helping others where its needed. just follow your instincts, not dry books or empty intellectualism.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10402680 - 05/26/09 03:44 PM (15 years, 6 hours ago)

No one want's to cite Wikipedia?

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Fraggin]
    #10402701 - 05/26/09 03:49 PM (15 years, 6 hours ago)

i think OC is just getting warmed up and ready, wiki will arrive as planned :awesome:


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10402750 - 05/26/09 03:59 PM (15 years, 5 hours ago)

Pre-civilized humans tended to have a BUNCH of people who did the HARD work, and a handful of people reserved for the COOL jobs.

Most people were hunters or gatherers.

Then there were the chiefs/shamans/storytellers.

Today we are quite similar.... albeit more "civilized".

Most people are workers.

A handful are politicians, preachers, doctors and artists.

Old world shamans, for the most part, took the roll of both preacher and doctor... since science as we know it had not yet been invented and the people of the time did not see any difference between either field. Now we do. Would you want a Catholic priest to give you a vasectomy?


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10402753 - 05/26/09 04:00 PM (15 years, 5 hours ago)

Thanks b0red5tiff, I think you've answered my questions.

That makes sense. I'll heed your advice :smile:


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rose]
    #10402782 - 05/26/09 04:07 PM (15 years, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

Would you want a Catholic priest to give you a vasectomy?




No, but maybe a bj...


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10402796 - 05/26/09 04:10 PM (15 years, 5 hours ago)

:lol:


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10402827 - 05/26/09 04:18 PM (15 years, 5 hours ago)

:cool:


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10402916 - 05/26/09 04:33 PM (15 years, 5 hours ago)

Quote:


Old world shamans, for the most part, took the roll of both preacher and doctor... since science as we know it had not yet been invented and the people of the time did not see any difference between either field. Now we do. Would you want a Catholic priest to give you a vasectomy?






Quote:

b0red5tiff said:    Quote:
  these days a psychologist is a shaman. the old goddesses and gods have been turned into archetypes and inner selves. i have seen a lot of people on these boards looking for an "authentic" image of a shamanic session. this is a pitfall of absurdity imo, there is no authentic shamanism. shamanism has never been a school or a course, it's been a spontaneous event taking place on different places on the globe without each others aid.
.




I agree with this


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: daytripper23]
    #10404261 - 05/26/09 08:47 PM (15 years, 1 hour ago)

Old World Shamans have been replaced with Plastic Shamans.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Fraggin]
    #10404340 - 05/26/09 09:04 PM (15 years, 48 minutes ago)

Plastic is strong, durable, malleable, and lasts for a long time.  All good qualities for a shaman!


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: daytripper23]
    #10405212 - 05/26/09 11:28 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Does it merely take someone telling us what we're seeing, or should be seeing, in order for us to see it?




That is a psychological study I would be interested in seeing.




There were some simple experiments in which participants would be shown a line of a certain length. After seeing the line, they would be asked to pick the line that is the same length out of a group of 3 lines. A shorter line, a same sized line, and a longer line. The lines were noticeably different, and in control conditions participants were quite accurate in picking the correct line.

The experimental condition however made significant changes. They would set the participant in a room full of confederates. The participant believed that everyone was there for the same experiment, as were just other participants like themselves. When the set of 3 was shown, the confederates would either all choose the too short line, or all choose the too long line. The participant would follow suit, and choose the incorrect line, just to fit the majority.

This was obviously not 100%, but I find it interesting all the same.

There was further work which indicated if one confederate broke the consensus, the rate of correct answers vs majority answers shifted drastically. And they even went on to do further number work based around group size. For instance, and I'm making this up because I can't remember the exact numbers, but... a group of 7 would require 2 individuals to break the consensus or the effect was still too strong. Versus a group of 4 only needing 1.

I really should re-read that, because I  believe they had a way of examining the beliefs after. The question of does one retain the belief that the too short, or too long line, is in fact the correct line, after the masses are no longer present.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (05/26/09 11:32 PM)

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Kickle]
    #10410067 - 05/27/09 08:32 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

:vineclimb:


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  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: daytripper23]
    #10412508 - 05/28/09 09:01 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Shamans were never in touch with the Spirit World, they were just adept at selling that idea to the populace.




I think the concept of the *Spirit World* is attached to certain cultural definitions and literal interpretations more than it should be.  We can only speculate on the spectrum of infinite possible experiences a shaman has and relates to his tribe--from fraud to psychosis to an encounter with a legitimate plane of reality.  To accurately define the subjective experience of another being is impossible and to believe that one has done so is simply egotistical.  Maybe shamans ARE schizoid and that *malformed* state of awareness IS the *spirit world*? :shrug:

To me your quote is akin to claiming that a wise person who had a dream about someone is his community never really went to sleep and had that dream, but only was good at convincing that person he did.  Or like saying that the philosopher who experiences ego death and information exchange with psilocybin mushrooms did not really have that experience yet untruthfully told his book club all about it.

I do not know what the *spirit world* is. I only know of the realms I have been to and find useful to accomplish my goals...


--------------------

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: SoY]
    #10413334 - 05/28/09 12:51 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

In the biographical book 'Wizard of the Upper Amazon', the author was captured by and  lived with an Amazonian tribe for several years. They used ayahuasca to divine when their enemies were about to attack them via 'the spirit world'. His tribe mistakenly slaughtered another peaceful tribe that had in no way prepared to attack.

The divination was merely a fear-based projection. While this one story proves little, none of the spirit world stories add up to anything other than imagination. McKenna's contact in 'True Hallucinations' made him certain the world was about to end. Nothing happened.


On an unrelated note, my 80 year old dad sent my his recent drawing of a wolf. thought you would appreciate it.



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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (06/05/09 04:20 AM)

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10413526 - 05/28/09 01:35 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

imagination is all there is. fear is also part of the spirit world, so to speak.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10458221 - 06/05/09 04:13 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

There is much that the subconscious can do and be aware of that lies far outside our normal experience of officially-sanctioned 2004 American reality. These, I’ll put into the category of psychic abilities or the parapsychological/paranormal interface with the exterior cosmos. However, that is not the subject of this discussion, for those activities are notoriously hard to pin down, perhaps by Design. What is the subject of this paper has already been determined by the intrinsic trajectory (aforementioned) of symbols themselves – that is, of reversion, reflection, the precession of simulacra: symbols unmask the essential fraud of the real in deference to the barebones machinery that renders our experience (of the real) to us, namely the brain-body complex. Symbols are the broomsticks of the child magician Mickey Mouse, getting out of hand by virtue of their ease of replication under the influence of the undisciplined mind, coping not with its tumultuous, overwhelming potentials. There are so many cultures, with their gods, so many ways of parsing the world, such a mesh (read: mess) of languages within languages, dialects, intonations and timbres of being, that it beckons the wizard’s return to tranquilize the din, and show the simple way to the markedly unmysterious mysteries of shamanism.

Before embarking on what ways a shaman achieves his magic, let us explore why anyone would ever want to be one of these fellows, and how the role came about. In some ways, it’s like the role of a director of motion pictures: when it comes down to it, everyone else’s job on a movie set takes care of every possible responsibility, so a director really has no job, no role. Yet, he is the single most important voice and vision in most pictures. He is not actually literally in the picture, but influences every part of it; he is like the wind that can’t itself be seen except through the leaves it blows about. He is the vision that actively if invisibly manifests itself by virtue of inherent magnetism, the surrounding community like iron filings, drawing into place magically. He is a manifester, a mediator. He stands alone. He takes the risk, and the blame. He sees visions, and uses the grammar of dreams to formulate a transmissible myth. He is a storyteller, of the tale that wags the dog (his community). He is the messenger that is the message. He gains power only through the tacit consensus of his people, and yet he has thereby ultimate power over them. He probes his subconscious so they don’t have to (only thing is, in delivering the performance, he’s probing and influencing theirs). The magicians of cinema wield a wand made of holly wood (it’s true, look it up), and in so many ways, they are the precise correlate, in quite different trappings, of the prototypical, primal madman shaman.

So again, why would a man want to be no man, the outsider, the in-betweener, the dreamer and fallguy? Who would want all the responsibility and risk, with no commitment of loyalty from anyone outside himself? Well, of course, he can’t help but to not be anything but exactly that. He is chosen by his own neurology, aka the spirits.

The shaman hallucinates outward his own traumas and self-image. He projects and relives universal birth traumas and that of his own death by ‘shamanic illness’ during the period of his ‘calling’ as a process of healing the other. He is the resurrected ‘wounded healer’, having suffered severe hysteria, epilepsy or schizophrenia, followed by psychological reintegration as one variation on the general theme of taking ill and undergoing the ordeal of self-healing. This process is echoed in the shaman’s astral journey of consciousness – employed for spiritual insight into the universe or for healing or divination – where death, dismemberment and devouring by spirits; subsequent reassembling, recharging and revivification by same; and rebirth into a renewed superself are experienced as a prodigious drama. The shamanic call process may, in a case like this, continue as increased internal anxiety followed by erratic behavior and social withdrawal, or it may consist of dreams, visions, or inner voices (Wright 4). In any case, seizure-like behaviors or periods of deep trance or unconsciousness may also be part of the awakening metamorphosis of the shaman.




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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread *DELETED* [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10458831 - 06/05/09 09:02 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: rebus_minus]
    #10458882 - 06/05/09 09:15 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

So, the first, and most divine call of the shaman is spontaneous epilepsy that forms the neurological substrate for cultivated shamanic trance skill. This ‘shamanic illness’, cropping up maybe at age 9 or very likely around 20, even 45 in some cases, but usually in youth, is the most blatant, cut and dried indicator to the community that this person has a destiny. And, sure enough, epileptics tend to have the personality traits that draw them into the role. In fact, by reputation, a shamanic session generally looks like he’s having a fit, right down to frothing at the mouth, violently striking out at unknown assailants, speaking in tongues, and finally collapsing unconscious only to be aroused moments later with total amnesia (to the amazement of his tribesfolk, keen to hear of his amazing ‘journey’). If no epileptics are available, schizophrenics, the unstably overly-anxious, hysterics, and any other clinical weirdoes will suffice. The shaman must be an outsider, for the realm outside of which he sees is the reality box that sits squarely over his regional culture, of which it is largely unaware. His shaman’s legs are spring-loaded to clear leap over the pseudo-walls of their linguistic, symbolic social mouse maze.

No wonder he discerns his own sacred language. They call it the language of the birds (what else?). Often it will be gifted by an elder shaman, if it is the type of lineage or tradition that emphasizes apprenticeship. Other times, it will spontaneously erupt as glossolalia during ecstasy or seizure, in which case it is the dreamtime spurging out through his loose mouth in gross vocables. Likewise, his hallucinations (aka visions) slice and ramble onto the carefully manicured, crystallized through habit, comfortable and reliable realities of the rank and file members of his group. A prisoner to his loneliness, he is the freest of men. He has no real friends, but feels intimately the cosmic fibers that feed him and bind him to the infinite brotherhood. He is outside of time, while trudging through it. He is the only one kicking and screaming, because everyone else seems to take it so calmly in stride.

Again, who would want this role? For it is true some who aren’t explicitly selected genetically by the gods do choose it and inquire about the study of its mysteries. A shaman’s magic functions largely on the power of his reputation (This speaks volumes about the nature of the magic employed, most by implication and power of suggestion, group field effects.). He is a frustrated, temperamental ‘über-reflection’ of his society at large. He is the mocking exaggeration of their zeitgeist in which he is embroiled (only less so than the rest of the human herd). He is the transgression into the universal, eternal humanness, stripped of all bearings and headings of culture. He simulates the artificial structures of his people: anything solid is his to dissolve into seething dream, his dance a crazy mimic. He breaks unseen boundaries like language, taboo, and, legend has it, gravity. Yes, he is the free fool. And the power in this free fool who is the simulation itself (of both physical and cultural trappings) is that he is physically a constant reminder of the body-machine and culturally the tail that wags the dog. By rearranging and reordering and subverting the symbols and roles and expectations of his particular culture, he dispenses through his charisma a magical social lubricant which, because it’s so patently insane, reinforces the coherency and integrity of the group. He is the sounding board echoing from the fringe that reminds everyone of their living identity.

He can play his culture like a game, and his intuition is perked to sense the nearest sore nexus of social stagnation or repression, an excessive element begging to be slapped back into place, the node from which huge cultural pivots can be made, time and place; he can turn the tide. He is a leader among men. Some would want this role. Some would rather be shaman than chief, for the shaman is anointed by the higher authority of nature, crowned by fate, obvious to all in his airs, aura, and actions. The chief or king relies on clear symbols like headdress or crown and scepter, a throne. He dares not tinker with the accepted illusional vestments of power. The shaman clown on the other hand adroitly specializes in exactly this tinkering and tweaking of the social fabric. He is often at the same time rival to and right-hand-man of the chief. His bread and butter is an artistic and cosmic knowledge of the field of social constructs that the chief re-invokes daily, administratively.

Given this, how does the shaman literally manifest magical effects and perform miracles? The keyword is ‘effects’, and the answer is: any way he can. Placebo, hypnotic, suggestive, implicative, shocking, no matter, the effect is primary, and his target is the nervous system. In contrast to the western doctor who, pinned under this thoroughly modern (again invisible) edifice of the dogma of science, does not recognize much effect his own experience, mindset, languageing, and social behavior has on the healing proceedings, the shaman uses his own nervous system to assert change in that of his onlookers. It is well established that many if most shamans use a degree of illusionary magic, trickery, or outright fraud in their performances and healings. The general anthropological consensus is that this makes them fakes, and invalidates shamanism. However, in light of modern science telling us that a placebo works 8 times out of 10 as often as an aspirin in providing relief, it really seems it’s the lack of standardization, centralization, replicability, and, well, hygiene in shamanism that offends western, science-based mentalities.

Two case examples will elucidate the suggestive mechanism at work in a shaman’s magic. But first, a note on framing the experience. As Claude Levi-Strauss has said, “the efficacy of magic implies a belief in magic.” The magic must be framed with three components that play off each other: 1. the shaman’s belief in the efficacy of his magic, 2. the patient’s belief in the shaman’s power, and 3. the faith and expectations of the group that recognizes the shaman’s role in relation to those he works his magic on, which validates, defines, and locates the relationships therein (24). I carefully note that essentially this ‘group’ need not even exist, for it only functions by implication perceived in both the mind of the shaman and that of the patient. It includes all generalized preconceived fantasy ideals the patient may bring of the powers of shamans from legend as well as a sense of this particular shaman’s reputation (i.e. he has merely ‘heard’ that this shaman is highly respected by his people). All this boils down to the bypassing of the patient’s protective mechanisms so as to create a state of high suggestibility. The virtues of this state are the untapped powers of the subconscious for spontaneous remission of many types of diseases, which is covered at length in Dr. Andrew Weil’s Spontaneous Healing.




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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10459335 - 06/05/09 11:12 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said: As Claude Levi-Strauss has said, �the efficacy of magic implies a belief in magic.� The magic must be framed with three components that play off each other: 1. the shaman�s belief in the efficacy of his magic, 2. the patient�s belief in the shaman�s power, and 3. the faith and expectations of the group that recognizes the shaman�s role in relation to those he works his magic on, which validates, defines, and locates the relationships therein (24).




I know the shaman's belief in his own magic is necessary, but is it truly necessary for the patient to also believe in it?  Don't many magicians claim that curses and healing spells work just as well if the target person is oblivious to their intentions?

That being said I'll also agree that the placebo effect can be truly powerful if the patient believes that he or she will get healed.  And nice writeup; who wrote this?


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: deCypher]
    #10459498 - 06/05/09 11:46 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

It seems that a shaman's expertise is found in between placebo and substantial causality, which is an entirely different form of leverage than what "modern civilization" is accustomed to. He doesn't seem to fall into traditional western categories of knowledge such as either the "natural science", where as you describe, it could only be described as "real magic"; or in the humanities, where his practice would only be recognized as a contrived manifestation of substance in the "unbiased", ethereal realm of semiotics...

...Or whatever, or however you would like to describe that traditional divide.

The question is whether the apparent margin between these territories contains a unique realm of knowledge of its own, and I would say undoubtedly yes. We are already functioning in that realm, though we do not recognize this.

We call it technology, the inevitable, immanent force of science and its drive that is human bias:

1615, "discourse or treatise on an art or the arts," from Gk. tekhnologia "systematic treatment of an art, craft, or technique," originally referring to grammar, from tekhno- (see techno-) + -logia. The meaning "science of the mechanical and industrial arts" is first recorded 1859. High technology attested from 1964; short form high-tech is from 1972. Tech as a short form of Technical College (Institute, etc.) is Amer.Eng., attested from 1906.

I think the shaman is an acknowledged "technologist" of sort.




--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (06/05/09 02:40 PM)

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10459742 - 06/05/09 12:41 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I would be closer to a curandero than a shaman.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: mad_cow]
    #10459849 - 06/05/09 01:08 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
I would be closer to a curandero than a shaman.




It's all about being a brujo.  :cool:


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: deCypher]
    #10462400 - 06/06/09 05:56 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I know the shaman's belief in his own magic is necessary, but is it truly necessary for the patient to also believe in it?  Don't many magicians claim that curses and healing spells work just as well if the target person is oblivious to their intentions?

That being said I'll also agree that the placebo effect can be truly powerful if the patient believes that he or she will get healed.  And nice writeup; who wrote this?



i wouldn't say it's necessary. he knows its not magic but something nameless that will take any form it has to in order to work. and i think there's a big difference between "shaman" - "magician".

it was written by Hadley Harkrader, full article here:
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/diehtu/siida/shaman/trans.htm


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10463690 - 06/06/09 10:42 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I gave up on this what is a shaman am I a shaman business a long time ago. As long as I can play with the spirits I don't need a label.

I think a lot of it is in your view of how the world works. Belief in things like invasive energies, spirits, and soul-fragmentation are all a part of shamanism. If you don't believe in those things it is like saying you are a Christian who doesn't believe in Jesus.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: mad_cow]
    #10463801 - 06/06/09 11:07 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Shamanism is a religion now, complete with dogma and all?
Wow, sweet, maybe we can pin it down now.


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Kickle]
    #10463827 - 06/06/09 11:12 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

No, it is a spiritual system. Most indigenous people practice Animism as a religion. :rolleyes:
The things I mentioned are also the mexican and south american versions of what indigenous people believe. I don't know as much about other regions.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: mad_cow]
    #10463853 - 06/06/09 11:18 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I think you're missing my point. My issue is not with shamanism. I agree that it is a spiritual system. My issue was with you claiming what are required beliefs of shamanism, something that religious dogma does, and then further comparing it to a dogmatic religion.

Quote:

If you don't believe in those things it is like saying you are a Christian who doesn't believe in Jesus.





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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Kickle]
    #10463894 - 06/06/09 11:33 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I think you're missing my point. My issue is not with shamanism. I agree that it is a spiritual system. My issue was with you claiming what are required beliefs of shamanism, something that religious dogma does, and then further comparing it to a dogmatic religion.

Quote:

If you don't believe in those things it is like saying you are a Christian who doesn't believe in Jesus.








Bad analogy on my part. Let's take yoga. Another spiritual system that is not considered a religion. There are common beliefs that make you fit into the label of yogi.

On the other hand as I am sure has been stated in this thread, the word shaman is siberian. There are medicine men, curanderos, brujos, ayahuasqueros, ect. in the americas. They all have similarities and differences.

I don't know what my point is, I just don't care anymore.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread *DELETED* [Re: mad_cow]
    #10463927 - 06/06/09 11:42 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

Edited by rebus_minus (06/06/09 11:43 PM)

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: rebus_minus]
    #10463970 - 06/06/09 11:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

The 8 limbs of yoga are be what is believed to be the way to live to achieve enlightenment.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread *DELETED* [Re: mad_cow]
    #10463988 - 06/06/09 11:58 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by rebus_minus

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Edited by rebus_minus (06/07/09 12:56 AM)

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: rebus_minus]
    #10465196 - 06/07/09 10:24 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

My authority is mainly georg feuerstein. I never said anything about rules. I said it is beliefs. The Shiva-Samhita talks about karma, nadis, and kundalini. These are beliefs about how the world and the human body work.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: rebus_minus]
    #10465337 - 06/07/09 11:11 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

rebus_minus said:

From my understanding you are wrong. There are not any beliefs that make you a yogi.



Quote:

rebus_minus said:

The Shiva-Samhita text defines the yogi as someone who knows that the entire cosmos is situated within his own body[.]





You have answered yourself. Yogis believe (or know) the entire cosmos is situated within his own body. Therefore there is a belief you must have to be a yogi.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread *DELETED* [Re: mad_cow]
    #10465946 - 06/07/09 01:29 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: rebus_minus]
    #10536810 - 06/19/09 01:07 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

here are some interesting ideas about UFO sightings and abductions being not about aliens but about spirits from another dimension (shamanic spirits, plant teachers etc.)

To begin, we need a template of sorts for shamanic initiations in order to appreciate the extent to which such a template might indeed overlap with the underlying form of NDEs and UFOEs. Needless to say, given the enormous wealth of anthropological literature on shamanic initiation, any one model will be a patent oversimplification.

Nevertheless, even a crude and over-generalized outline of some of the main features of this kind of initiation will prove workable for our purposes. In any case, the following account is based chiefly on Eliade (1958, 1964), Nicholson (1987), and Kalweit (1988).

Typically, an individual who may be somewhat unusual because of his (or her) sensitivities or exceptional giftedness — or because he has survived a serious illness, accident, or other ordeal — is selected for shamanic training. He is then separated from his community and put into the hands of his shamanic trainer. The apprentice is required to undergo various ordeals, both physical and psychological, as his training progresses. Often, as is well known, these rites involve powerful dismemberment (and reconstitutive) motifs as the candidate undergoes a death-and-rebirth ordeal — a necessary component for all true initiations, of course, as well as the experiential foundations for a new sense of identity as a shaman. Sacred mysteries are disclosed to the individual as he learns to enter into otherworldly realms and acquires his particular shamanic skills, his power animals, sacred songs, secret language, and so forth. After his initiation is complete, he returns to his community as a healer, a psychopomp, a master of ecstasy, a mystic and visionary — as a man (or woman), in short, who now knows how to live in two worlds: the world of the soul as well as that of the body. And though indispensable to the welfare of his community, he often remains somewhat apart from it precisely because of his special knowledge and his unusual and sometimes disturbing presence.


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Turning now to UFO encounters, we need to discover how well our model fits the case of the typical abductee.

Let's review, then, in somewhat greater detail than before the usual progression of events in these experiences in an attempt to test the utility of this model here.

In UFO abductions, the individual is “taken” (and I don't mean this in a physical sense, though abductees themselves sometimes do) when he is usually in some kind of an altered state of consciousness — asleep, in a state of helpless paralysis, or otherwise somehow entranced. Here, however, the figure of the cosmic shaman — this time in the form of a space-age E.T., as it were, but playing the selfsame role albeit in new garb — may make his appearance early on, or the abductee may be brought into his presence by a set of clone-like assistants. The next stage of the journey is “the examination” in which the individual, already usually highly uneasy if not frightened to the core, is forced to endure a variety of intrusive procedures — apparently the UFO equivalent of the initiatory ordeal or dismemberment ceremony. It's noteworthy, by the way, how often the abductee will say that this examination took place in a round or curved chamber. We know of course that a round hut or circular enclosure of some kind is a staple in traditional initiations, as Kannenberg (1986), herself a UFO abductee, has pointed out.

Rotunda-like structures can be taken to symbolize a womb or a place of new beginnings. In any event, following this ordeal, certain specific — I suppose one might say “classified” — information may be imparted telepathically as part of another act in the initiatory drama. Eventually, however, the abductee is somehow returned to his ordinary space/time world, though, as I have said, he may not have any immediate conscious recall of his traumatic adventure.

Yet he, too, like the NDEr, may come back shaken from his experience but with the seeds of transformation already sown in his psyche. While there are, to my knowledge, no careful long-term studies of the aftereffects of these UFO encounters,[3] preliminary work by Sprinkle (1981, 1983), Davis (1985), and others (e.g., Decker 1986) suggests that despite the grueling nature of these experiences, the after-effects, though variable, often show striking resemblances to the characteristics of NDEs.

And once more in common with NDErs, the UFO abductee may learn that his experience, though it has conferred upon him certain new skills, insights, and understandings, has also served to isolate him somewhat from his community. Like the NDEr, he, too, has had his passport stamped with an extramundane imprint and returns from his strange sojourn with divided and complicated allegiances to that world. As a result, he may find that he is inwardly conflicted and frequently estranged from his family and fellows, something of an alien himself.


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Given that NDEs and UFOEs may be forms of shamanic initiation, we must now take this inquiry one step further and ask: What is it that those who have these experiences are being initiated into when they pass through these otherworldly domains?

In my view, whenever an individual undergoes a shamanic journey — whether through nearly dying, UFO abduction, or by other means — he is vaulted into the world of the imagination or, to use Henri Corbin's (1976) equivalent phrase, a mundus imaginalis. Let me be clear at the outset what I understand by this expression, whether it be the English or the Latin. James Hillman (1975) has insisted, and NDErs and shamans everywhere would quickly concur, that in the world of imagination, persons and places are fully real; they are as real in that domain as our physical world is to our senses.[4] So in using this expression, I am not implying that such experiences are imaginary, but rather that they are imaginal (again to use Corbin's helpful term). Imagination in this sense is, as Coleridge argued, a creative power, and the world that it reveals is, as Blake knew, a supersensible reality that can be directly apprehended.

Shamans, who see with the eyes of their soul, have also penetrated into this world and have given us peerless descriptions of its fabulous and infinitely varied regions and denizens. Indeed, the idea that shamanic experiences thrust individuals into this realm has lately started to serve as a unifying formulation for a number of writers. For instance, in Shirley Nicholson's excellent anthology on shamanism (1987), there are quite a few articles that articulate this notion admirably (see, for example, the pieces by Harner, Houston, Achterberg, and Noll). Likewise, in Carol Zaleski's brilliant book, Otherworld Journey (1987), she follows a similar interpretative line for NDEs.

Finally, Terrence McKenna (1982, 1984), another student of shamanism, has also argued for the primacy of the imagination in understanding UFO phenomena. These collective efforts, centered on the imaginal world and the power of the imagination to shape human experience, may eventually spawn a conceptual net of sufficient breadth to capture and order meaningfully the variety of non-ordinary experiences we considered at the beginning of this paper.

At any rate, this approach appears to be a most promising direction for conceptual work in this area, and deserves even more attention.

All this notwithstanding, what is important for us at this point in our inquiry is not just the recent popularity of this kind of formulation but rather the fact that through it we are led all the way back to Heraclitus — the father of psychology — and the seeming priority of the soul. From this perspective, of course, NDEs, UFOEs, and shamanic journeys in general are all explorations in the domain of soul, which, as Heraclitus seems to have been the first to assert, is infinite.[5] And, as Roberts Avens (1980) has pointed out, soul is not only inseparable from imagination, “soul is imagination” (p. 103).

Therefore, if shamanic experiences are to educate the soul, as I have claimed, they must necessarily do this by propelling us into the infinitude of the human imagination. The mundus imaginalis is our true home, which we are once more beginning to see and to experience directly. Again, as Avens has said: “Only soul (the imaginal realm) is not reducible to anything else and so constitutes our true, ontological reality” (p. 102).


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10536812 - 06/19/09 01:07 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Shamanic Journeys and UFO Encounters:
A Consideration of Two Avenues to an Expanded Reality
by Sue Jamieson and Dr. John E. Mack
(Abstract follows)
    Shamanism and the study of what we in our Western culture call UFO “abductions” or “encounters” both involve other worlds with phenomenological differences and similarities. A comparative study of these has the potential to augment, advance, and expand our understanding of “reality.” With this end in view, we examine the similarities and differences between shamanic journeys and UFO encounters. Similarities (e.g. non-ordinary reality, altered space and time, other “beings”, reports of flying, moving through tunnels, light, healings, and other world families) exist between the essential reality of shamanic practices and journeys and UFO encounters. There are noticeable experiential differences especially with respect to “agency” in relation to the experience, the dimensional plane, or realm in which the experience occurs, and in the resultant physical and emotional trauma and there are circumstances within both experiences in which differences and similarities overlap and are difficult to distinguish.

    Many indigenous shamans and medicine people openly acknowledge UFO encounters as part of their reality and speak easily of myths and legends telling of peoples that come from the sky or the stars. Indigenous acknowledgments, coupled with collections of thousands of reports from experiencers, seem to be increasing public awareness and acceptance of the reality of the phenomenon within our own society. Mutual exploration of shamanism and the UFO encounter phenomenon can help us to expand the current paradigm of reality, extend our knowledge base, provide healing methods and techniques, and map the non-ordinary states of consciousness and realities. At the heart of our interest in subjects like shamanism and UFO encounters lies the desire to recover the vital information and wisdom lost through our turning away from traditional ways of knowing. Bringing the two studies together may lead to discoveries of the complex interplay of inner and outer reality, the relations of spirit to matter, and the possible existence of new physical domains and principles, plus capacities of our consciousness of which we have hardly dreamed.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10537385 - 06/19/09 02:38 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

If you think your a shaman your not.If you live in a village and people call you shaman you are. It is pretty cut and dry.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10537418 - 06/19/09 02:43 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

:andyistic:

i think the material i brought up in the previous pages shows the fallacies of that opinion.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10537450 - 06/19/09 02:47 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Shaman is a title inferred by a social group...specifically the social group of the Tungus Tribe in Siberia. The only shamans are Tungus. The word has been badly misappropriated. Read Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy by Eliade for a back ground in this. He didn't believe in that heathen shit and wished it would go away, but he chronicled it well.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10537468 - 06/19/09 02:50 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Here is what a shaman looks like. Look in the mirror and compare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SB_-_Altay_shaman_with_gong.jpg


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10537481 - 06/19/09 02:52 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

the word "shaman" is a word representing a certain person. the word itself is irrelevant. the word came into existence only because the first reports about these medicine men came back from tungus and the word stuck.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10537522 - 06/19/09 02:59 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Your wrong. It is a culture specific term. American Indians do not like the term even be applied to them. They prefer their traditional titles.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10537540 - 06/19/09 03:01 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

:andyistic:

the name doesn't change the phenomena that takes place in all cultures.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10537680 - 06/19/09 03:24 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Nor does your desire to be something you simply are not.

It is normal to want to rationalize your love for psychedelics by pretending it means something.

It doesn't...


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rose]
    #10537745 - 06/19/09 03:31 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

well... this thread isn't really about psychedelics but the symptoms of shamanic initiation and about the related phenomena. psychedelics is just the dominant angle of the shroomery and the best angle for this topic to be approached imo.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10537783 - 06/19/09 03:36 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
well... this thread isn't really about psychedelics but the symptoms of shamanic initiation and about the related phenomena. psychedelics is just the dominant angle of the shroomery and the best angle for this topic to be approached imo.




Wow, you just played BOTH sides in that last post.

Why have a discussion here, when you can argue with yourself?

Look, I was deathly ill as a child, and I saw a U.F.O. (really), I've tripped more times than I care to count.

BUT this isn't 10,000 years ago and I live in a 'civilized' country.

I am not a Shaman, but with my experience, I may have become one if I'd been born long ago and into a different culture.

Today, I make a better candidate for... wait for it... becoming an artist.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rose]
    #10537799 - 06/19/09 03:38 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I cast my vote for Cervantes as Forum Shaman. :heart:


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10537809 - 06/19/09 03:39 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I will not seek the nomination for forum Shaman, and if nominated I will not run.

:smile:


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rose]
    #10537834 - 06/19/09 03:42 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

as you may have read through the thread there are no strict guidelines to it like becoming a plumber.

it doesn't matter what year it is as these things have occurred for about 40,000 years (when humans indistinguishable from us today evolved) to this day and it will keep occurring despite authority figures stating experiences like this aren't possible and if you're having them then you need to block them with meds.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rose]
    #10537845 - 06/19/09 03:44 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

You can't run for it it has to be declared. You are now shaman. The Tungus may sue you for this. I am sure they have lawyers by now.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10537857 - 06/19/09 03:45 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
as you may have read through the thread there are no strict guidelines to it like becoming a plumber.

it doesn't matter what year it is as these things have occurred for about 40,000 years (when humans indistinguishable from us today evolved) to this day and it will keep occurring despite authority figures stating experiences like this aren't possible and if you're having them then you need to block them with meds.




Well, you certainly know how to spell, "You're"... but your punctuation and capitalization needs work.

Since you are an expert in this Shaman subject, you should start a training school for other wannabe Shamans... and make some quick cash. Just don't poison the Cool-Aid... 'cause your potential students will believe anything.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rose]
    #10537879 - 06/19/09 03:48 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

i'm glad you are skeptical and not willing to give useful input on this topic but if all you wanna do is spam then there's the kids corner at OTD you'd feel awfully at home with.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10537880 - 06/19/09 03:48 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
You can't run for it it has to be declared. You are now shaman. The Tungus may sue you for this. I am sure they have lawyers by now.




Well, fuck me!

I guess, since I am now a soon-to-be-sued Shaman, I should challenge Bored to a Sham-off!

He just chose the location... OTD.

So I get to choose the weapons... and I choose PUNCTUATION.

:wink:


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10537920 - 06/19/09 03:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
i'm glad you are skeptical and not willing to give useful input on this topic but if all you wanna do is spam then there's the kids corner at OTD you'd feel awfully at home with.




Don't end a statement with a preposition... on.

I have a feeling you are not really glad I am a skeptic... for.

Who is ever really glad nowadays... with?


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rose]
    #10537935 - 06/19/09 03:56 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Here is Cervantes merging artistic expression and sham-anism:



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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10537953 - 06/19/09 03:59 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I absorb damn near everything. Squeeze me hard enough and you'll see I'm pert' near full of water.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10538062 - 06/19/09 04:17 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
How long you been here now?

Miracles are relegated to an age when men were less rational and superstition was rife.





I feel sorry for all the mushrooms and LSD you have wasted by ingesting it on yourself.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rocker232]
    #10539253 - 06/19/09 08:04 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Hey, that's original and not at all egocentric. Let me translate for those not into obscure slams:

"I, Rocker32, am the supreme arbiter of what should happen after you ingest psychedelics. Anyone not feeling exactly as I do does not 'get it'".

Who here can distinguish this attitiude from that of a religious fundamentalist?


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10541319 - 06/20/09 05:08 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kenneth Ring says that abduction experiences can be regarded as a variation of the archetypal initiatory journey, with its familiar sequence of separation, ordeal, and return. The separation stage is the abduction, with the individual usually being spirited away against his or her will. The ordeal takes the form of the medical examination, which can be compared to the dismemberment motifs in traditional shamanic initiations. Among the Buryat of Siberia, the shamanic apprentice is taken away by his ancestors, and then tormented by the Saajtani, who poke around his belly with knives, cutting whole chunks of flesh off him, and throwing them about. The 'spirits' cook his flesh to 'ripen' it, and the initiate acquires his inner knowledge during this procedure.

    After being examined, abductees, like shamans, may receive teachings, instructions, or revelations. Finally they return to their normal surroundings. They frequently suffer feelings of confusion, disorientation, time loss, and memory impairment, but there is often a sense that something extraordinary has happened that will leave a lasting imprint. Ring argues that, like near-death experiences, which are another variant of the initiatory journey, abductions take place in an alternate reality -- the 'imaginal realm'.

    There are often significant surface differences between UFO encounters, angelic visitations, shamanic journeys, and near-death experiences. Yet, as Keith Thompson says,

    in all of these realms we find archetypal images of initiation involving otherworldly journeys amid extraordinary -- and apparently autonomous -- beings. Many ufologists, seeking to keep their precious field of study unique and discrete, question such parallels because, they say, there is no evidence that the beings described in non-UFO reports are 'from the same place' as UFO beings. What they seldom point out is that there is no evidence, either, of where 'UFO beings' are from!
        t requires an act of will not to notice thematic parallels between ceremonies of dismemberment undergone by shamanic initiates inside traditional round initiation huts, on the one hand, and the invisible 'medical' procedures experienced by UFO initiates inside rounded operating theatres inside disk- or oval-shaped craft, on the other.

    Paul Devereux mentions the intriguing work going on with DMT, the most hallucinogenic substance known. It is produced naturally in the human brain and occurs in psychedelic plants that have been used by shamanic peoples from time immemorial. For years people who have used this substance have reported rather similar experiences, such as encountering alien intelligences. Also noteworthy are the experiences of a man who has experimented with trying to enter the lucid dream state directly from the waking state. He reported that, deep into the extreme relaxation and concentration required, he is interrupted by the tangible experience of being 'examined in the dark by robots' or being 'operated on by small beings'.

    Some researchers suggest that the 'aliens' are reflections of ourselves -- alien-ated, dis-eased with ourselves and one another, and with the dis-spirited, impersonal, and uncontrollable society we live in. In a similar vein, Michael Grosso interprets abductions as symbolic evidence for disturbances in the collective unconscious. Visions of unhealthy-looking beings (the grays), who sometimes claim to come from a dying planet, who examine captives and take genetic material to create a hybrid species mean 'we are the sick ones, and ... we, as a species living on planet Earth, are in need of regeneration'. The fetal appearance of these beings suggests the child, the continuity of human life. According to Grosso, 'The "new man," the future of the species, is in great danger -- our future is threatened with extinction. ... If we learn to cooperate with the forces of rebirth, we may yet rise from the "examination table," resuscitated from our planetary near-death experience'.





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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10542584 - 06/20/09 12:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/06/the-call-spontaneous-initiation/

There’s been a ton of interesting points come up in the recent debates on this site. One that I find especially compelling is the “then vs. now” argument about shamanism, magic, etc. Basically, the argument goes like this: that in “traditional” cultures up until a certain time period (very recently), people didn’t run around buying books and taking courses to become a shaman. It was something that happened to people, that chose people on an individual basis. And it was not altogether pleasant. That is, certain members of the tribe would experience a severe natural initiation of some kind, whether it was a near death experience, an intense illness, mental breakdown, or visitation by spirits. Because of this experience, the would-be shaman was more or less cast outside of the normal world of the tribe, and pretty much the only thing that could be done was for another shaman to take them under their wing and train them in the mysteries.

Nowadays though, it seems to work like that less and less - and perhaps that explains some of the problem that arise in these spiritual groups today. Rarely do we see people who experience an “authentic” initiation (whatever that is) who then become our modern shamans. The vast majority of people get into it simply because they are curious or because they’ve “always been interested in it” or possibly because they think it’s gonna be cool and give them some kind of special powers. People who do seem to experience genuine initiation (maybe something along the order of a UFO abduction, for argument’s sake) are generally seen as basically crazy, and we don’t pay them a lot of serious attention. We also don’t accept them on their own terms, and we try to slot their experiences into a mundane framework, rather than accepting it as shamanism or magic or whatever.

Interestingly, in a lot of the shamanic traditions, as described by Mircea Eliade, we hear legends of something called the “decadence” of shamanism. By this he means that shamans tell tales of previous generations having been much much more powerful, that the current traditions are in decay. This perspective comes from actual real shamanic traditions too. Apply this to “Barnes & Noble shamanism” and I’m sure we could make an even more compelling point.




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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Mufungo]
    #10550863 - 06/21/09 11:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mufungo said:
I don't think there are many occupations in the modern age which haven't come a long way from their initial roots.

Does it really matter if a shaman of today isn't like a shaman of long ago (assuming that there really were "shamans" long ago)?  I guess it might depend on one's own values around tradition.




Any Shaman that's worth his salt isn't any more the same from one second to the next as he is concerned with being called a Shaman at all. In fact, the one thing a Shaman of any caliber would not call himself, and certainly not question the title as if he doesn't know what he's doing.

All the crap I've ever heard about Shaman's is crap. The only good ones are the ones you'll never hear of, cause they do the deal so smoothly, you'd never know the shit went down at all. And that's the way it goes.

A Shaman wouldn't even need a title, (s)he'd just take control without any effort at all, and there wouldn't be shit you could do to convince them otherwise.


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

Edited by justamonkey (06/21/09 11:11 PM)

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: justamonkey]
    #10551196 - 06/22/09 12:08 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Any Shaman that's worth his salt isn't any more the same from one second to the next as he is concerned with being called a Shaman at all. In fact, the one thing a Shaman of any caliber would not call himself, and certainly not question the title as if he doesn't know what he's doing.





Oh, oh! Me, me, I am not a shaman in the least. :wink:


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10551215 - 06/22/09 12:11 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It certainly is awesome for us non-shaman folks. :thumbup:


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10580686 - 06/27/09 07:39 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I don't see any benefit for a healer to self identify as a shaman. If an individual is a true shaman their friends, family and community will recognize them as a shaman without introducing themselves as a shaman. This is probably why people who claim to be a shaman suffer so much ridicule because they are obviously getting ahead of themselves in trying to achieve some sort of social status. A true shaman would just do their thing without any need for recognition.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: zen buddy]
    #10580689 - 06/27/09 07:45 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

A true shaman would just do their thing without any need for recognition.




Did you read "the book to being a true shaman"?  :whatever:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10580691 - 06/27/09 07:48 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

A true shaman would just do their thing without any need for recognition.




Did you read "the book to being a true shaman"?  :whatever:




Well hey, medical doctors are renowned for being capable of healing and solving health problems for all sorts of people, and its not like they need to self-identify as a doctor. Its a title they never use themselves and grudgingly accept that usage by others.

I mean, you know how it is, you're walking down the street, and the community can always tell the true doctors from the false ones. :wink:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10580694 - 06/27/09 07:49 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

And if some of those people have the latest magazines on torture, then they must be dentists. :wink:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10580702 - 06/27/09 07:56 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

A true shaman would just do their thing without any need for recognition.




Did you read "the book to being a true shaman"?  :whatever:




Unlike some people, I don't need to read a book in order to be sure about something.

For some unknown reason I have learned to think for myself.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: zen buddy]
    #10580707 - 06/27/09 07:58 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for another post that doesn't relate in any way to the discussion, you in for a prize? :trophy: :cuteshit:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10580718 - 06/27/09 08:04 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

... and your hypocritical post forgets that I was only answering your question.:shrug:

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: zen buddy]
    #10580852 - 06/27/09 08:54 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

No, you were avoiding answering my question by saying that you don't need books in order to be sure of something, and that you learned to think for yourself, a statement which is isn't only flawed and stupid in itself, but even more so when you consider that you were attempting to avoid explaining HOW you reached a certain conclusion.
Personally, I could never say that I don't need books in order to know something, and it would be completely stupid of me to think that, only because I read books, I can't have personal opinions or think for myself. In fact, gathering all kinds of knowledge, data, and differing opinions is what raises my level of consciousness and what makes me step out of the pathetic crap called self-importance, where I would foolishly think that I don't need books and information in order to know stuff. Actually, I think that one must think very low of themselves in order to believe that reading a book would jeopardize their ability to think for themselves.

Just to make sure you won't be confused anymore, it was my initial question that was ridiculing your statement, and it had the intention of asking you how the fuck did you reach such an idiotic conclusion, and based on what?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
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Bathed in your sighs

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10581243 - 06/27/09 11:23 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
No, you were avoiding answering my question by saying that you don't need books in order to be sure of something, and that you learned to think for yourself, a statement which is isn't only flawed and stupid in itself, but even more so when you consider that you were attempting to avoid explaining HOW you reached a certain conclusion.
Personally, I could never say that I don't need books in order to know something, and it would be completely stupid of me to think that, only because I read books, I can't have personal opinions or think for myself. In fact, gathering all kinds of knowledge, data, and differing opinions is what raises my level of consciousness and what makes me step out of the pathetic crap called self-importance, where I would foolishly think that I don't need books and information in order to know stuff. Actually, I think that one must think very low of themselves in order to believe that reading a book would jeopardize their ability to think for themselves.

Just to make sure you won't be confused anymore, it was my initial question that was ridiculing your statement, and it had the intention of asking you how the fuck did you reach such an idiotic conclusion, and based on what?




Would you care to explain how you came up with this idiotic conclusion?

Is there some book that you read that can somehow prove that my statement is incorrect? At this point you can either site your reference or admit your hypocrisy.

and even if you could find a book that disagrees with me it would not prove that I am wrong. All information contained in books start inside someone's mind.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: zen buddy]
    #10582807 - 06/27/09 06:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The word “shaman” comes from a Siberian language, Tungus, in which it refers to a particular kind of spiritual practitioner. Alice Beck Kehoe has argued that “shaman” should properly be used only to refer to Tungus spiritual practitioners and the practitioners of culturally related peoples. Her arguments are convincing, but anthropologists and popular writers alike have followed Mircea Eliade’s work for so long that the idea of shaman as a cross-cultural category is unlikely to go away anytime soon. But what, then, does “shaman” refer to? Lessa and Vogt define a shaman as “a ceremonial practitioner whose powers come from direct contact with the supernatural, by divine stroke, rather than from inheritance or memorized ritual,” as opposed to a priest, who uses codified and standardized ritual (301). They also say that shamans “are essentially mediums, for they are the mouthpieces of spirit beings” (301-302).


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10582842 - 06/27/09 06:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

WOW.

I can copy and paste too.


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Fiddlesticks.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: Rose]
    #10582881 - 06/27/09 07:04 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

and spam :naughty:


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10583086 - 06/27/09 07:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Neener Neener Neener!

:smile:

I wrote all that by my very own self.

Copy and Paste can bite me.

Slightly more on topic...

What ever happened to siting our sources?

If you can copy and paste text, can't you copy and paste a title and/or link too?


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: Rose]
    #10584985 - 06/28/09 04:59 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

because i don't take this thread as a research paper or a scientific argument. i thought i'd bring together ideas from various sources to portray the overall image of shamanic initiation/illness.


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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10585515 - 06/28/09 09:22 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zen buddy said:
Would you care to explain how you came up with this idiotic conclusion?

Is there some book that you read that can somehow prove that my statement is incorrect? At this point you can either site your reference or admit your hypocrisy.





Could it be that being so overly-emotional has completely clouded your reasoning and understanding, because only you know what the fuck you're talking about in here? :wow:
Why exactly would I need to quote a book that disagrees with your statement, or, if not, admit my "hypocrisy"?
You have made a statement which IMO is completely ridiculous, and I called you on it, several times, with no success because each time you managed to avoid answering how does your statement makes sense. You're the one that make a claim you're supposed to back it up. :shrug:

Quote:

and even if you could find a book that disagrees with me it would not prove that I am wrong. All information contained in books start inside someone's mind.




Again: I am not trying to prove that your statement is wrong, I am asking you to explain how it is valid. Namely, why should one wait for others to call him shaman, and not proclaim himself as being one? Moreover, on what do you base your understanding of a "real shaman"?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10585573 - 06/28/09 09:46 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

A true shaman would just do their thing without any need for recognition.




Did you read "the book to being a true shaman"?  :whatever:




Well hey, medical doctors are renowned for being capable of healing and solving health problems for all sorts of people, and its not like they need to self-identify as a doctor. Its a title they never use themselves and grudgingly accept that usage by others.

I mean, you know how it is, you're walking down the street, and the community can always tell the true doctors from the false ones. :wink:




Are you actually trying to compare doctors of Western medicine to shamans? Well, since you brought it up...

In order for a human being to become a doctor they have to first be recognized by their peers in the medical community. You cannot just decide to become a doctor and then all of a sudden claim to be a doctor, you have to earn this title.

The next point that I would like to make is also very important. There are thousands of doctors in the world who have taken the necessary courses, read the necessary books and passed the appropriate exams, yet they fail completely in the real world. There are many horrible doctors in the world who lack any bedside manner and sometimes have no idea what they are doing besides how to fill out the prescription form. Just becoming a doctor is no real achievement in itself, as becoming a good doctor is something very rare. How good of a doctor you are is determined by your patients and by your peers in the medical community and not by yourself.

As there is no official school or degree for a shaman, the only people that we can accept as deserving this title are the ones who have the approval of their community. A true shaman does not need recognition in order to do what they do. It is very possible for someone to fulfill the role without wearing the title.

When an individual announces to a room that he or she is a shaman there's a good chance that they are doing this for their own selfish, personal gain. If the individual is truly a shaman this fact would become obvious so there would be no need for a shaman to announce what he or she is to the room. A shaman plays an important role as a spiritual healer and because there is no degree that someone can present as evidence, it is very true in this case that actions speak louder than words. In fact, when someone claims to be a shaman before it is obvious they make it more likely that they will never be accepted as a shaman.

and yes, these are my own personal thoughts on the subject.

The credibility is in the fact that it makes sense.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10585602 - 06/28/09 09:57 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

zen buddy said:
Would you care to explain how you came up with this idiotic conclusion?

Is there some book that you read that can somehow prove that my statement is incorrect? At this point you can either site your reference or admit your hypocrisy.





Could it be that being so overly-emotional has completely clouded your reasoning and understanding, because only you know what the fuck you're talking about in here? :wow:
Why exactly would I need to quote a book that disagrees with your statement, or, if not, admit my "hypocrisy"?
You have made a statement which IMO is completely ridiculous, and I called you on it, several times, with no success because each time you managed to avoid answering how does your statement makes sense. You're the one that make a claim you're supposed to back it up. :shrug:

Quote:

and even if you could find a book that disagrees with me it would not prove that I am wrong. All information contained in books start inside someone's mind.




Again: I am not trying to prove that your statement is wrong, I am asking you to explain how it is valid. Namely, why should one wait for others to call him shaman, and not proclaim himself as being one? Moreover, on what do you base your understanding of a "real shaman"?




You do this often and many others have called you out with no success so I see no reason why I would have any better luck but I'll give it a try anyways.

If you are going to suggest that what I say is idiotic then why don't you take the time to either explain or prove how what I say is incorrect? How can you disagree with someone without knowing why you disagree? Are you the Queen mother of the shroomery who never has to explain herself? If you cannot take the time to explain why you disagree then there is nothing to back your claim that what I say is idiotic. Either prove your point or shut up.

Your posts are famous for twisting others words to mean something completely different than what they had intended. Not only is it obvious that you completely misunderstand more than half the time but all you're really looking to do is start a fight.

Argue the point and avoid the insults or try to admit that your contributions to this forum are more of a disruption than anything else.

You claim that my statement is idiotic, why don't you back it up? ...  otherwise you are being hypocritical. You asked me to back up my claim but you're not willing to do the same.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: zen buddy]
    #10585616 - 06/28/09 10:05 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

So, let's review: I am looking for starting fights, when you're the one that says:

"Are you the Queen mother of the shroomery who never has to explain herself?"

"Either prove your point or shut up."

"Argue the point and avoid the insults or try to admit that your contributions to this forum are more of a disruption than anything else."


How stupid is that? :lol:
Also, how hard is it to explain your point already, along with some consistent evidence that shamans do actually exist.
I am not going to take to consideration your menopausal woman comments, and I will consider that you just can't bring any insight into the matter, if next time you will avoid answering my initial question.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10585631 - 06/28/09 10:12 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
So, let's review: I am looking for starting fights, when you're the one that says:

"Are you the Queen mother of the shroomery who never has to explain herself?"

"Either prove your point or shut up."

"Argue the point and avoid the insults or try to admit that your contributions to this forum are more of a disruption than anything else."


How stupid is that? :lol:
Also, how hard is it to explain your point already, along with some consistent evidence that shamans do actually exist.
I am not going to take to consideration your menopausal woman comments, and I will consider that you just can't bring any insight into the matter, if next time you will avoid answering my initial question.




I have already explained my point and you are once again avoiding the point while failing to make your own point.

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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: zen buddy]
    #10586272 - 06/28/09 01:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

As there is no official school or degree for a shaman, the only people that we can accept as deserving this title are the ones who have the approval of their community. A true shaman does not need recognition in order to do what they do. It is very possible for someone to fulfill the role without wearing the title.




How can you be sure of what a shaman needs or doesn't? Doesn't it strike you as odd to make such strong appreciations?
I do agree that it is very possible for someone to fulfill a role without wearing the title, but this in no way means that, if one is assuming and self-proclaiming a role, they aren't actually in that role, and that it is all a facade.
What is a real shaman? It is a question that I kept asking you and you refused to answer, saying that I am being a hypocrite, when in fact, by answering this question, you could have explained your POV and why you think a "real" shaman would never speak of themselves as being a shaman.
What makes you think that a shaman wouldn't need recognition? Don't you think it's a logical fallacy to automatically consider someone malevolent and an impostor, simply because they need the appreciation of those around them? How does the first lead to the latter? :strokebeard:

Quote:

When an individual announces to a room that he or she is a shaman there's a good chance that they are doing this for their own selfish, personal gain.




Since when does self-fulfillment come in contradiction with satisfying the needs of others?

Quote:

If the individual is truly a shaman this fact would become obvious so there would be no need for a shaman to announce what he or she is to the room.




In which way, specifically, would this become an obvious fact?

Quote:

A shaman plays an important role as a spiritual healer and because there is no degree that someone can present as evidence, it is very true in this case that actions speak louder than words.




Of course, but this doesn't mean that words are of no value, nor does it mean that, by saying those words, you're becoming a fake shaman. :lol:

Quote:

In fact, when someone claims to be a shaman before it is obvious they make it more likely that they will never be accepted as a shaman.




Can you prove the verity of this assertion?

I could go on to debating whether or not shamans actually exist, but I won't do that as I can see how this rather vague term can have meaning in the actual reality, especially in one's consciousness and psyche. I can see how the archetypal initiation rite can apply to one's life when for example experiencing a personal crisis accompanied by personal transformation and growth, and I can think about a handful of situations and stages when, identifying themselves with the wounded healer, one can really need the appreciation of their family or community.
The fact that you see this thing though negative lenses doesn't mean that the situation itself is bad, deceitful, or that the people who claim they're shamans are impostors.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10586279 - 06/28/09 01:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

goddamn MM, that's just cold and mean.


--------------------

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10586480 - 06/28/09 01:46 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Selfless, self-assured, silently and smirkingly humble mother-fuckers, shamans, around some parts of the shroomery, are perceived as sacredly more awesome than pirates and ninjas combined. Yes, you read me right, COMBINED !

AND DON'T YOU DARE THINK OTHERWISE YOU FILTHY HERETIC

That is all.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: zen buddy]
    #10587737 - 06/28/09 05:36 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zen buddy said:
Are you actually trying to compare doctors of Western medicine to shamans? Well, since you brought it up...




Yes, it is an apt comparison, just as it would be to any other profession wherein the individual is a tradesmen and their services are called upon by others, such as carpenter or insurance salesman.

Quote:


In order for a human being to become a doctor they have to first be recognized by their peers in the medical community. You cannot just decide to become a doctor and then all of a sudden claim to be a doctor, you have to earn this title.




Yet there are plenty of people out there who enjoy referring to themselves or fancying themselves as being doctors. Many doctors could be recognized by the medical community as being a doctor, but it doesn't mean they know anything about effectively being a doctor. So, clearly, with shamans, apparently it is possible to be a shaman that has earned the title, as well as to be a person who is not a shaman but likes to refer to themselves as being one, just the same as doctors.
Regarding doctors, as you said:

Quote:


There are thousands of doctors in the world who have taken the necessary courses, read the necessary books and passed the appropriate exams, yet they fail completely in the real world.




So, right now, you're saying that it isn't taking courses, reading books, and passing exams that determines that you are a doctor, but then you go on to say...

Quote:


How good of a doctor you are is determined by your patients and by your peers in the medical community and not by yourself.




Even though you just stated in plain English that what makes a doctor is the doctor themselves and their abilities of being a good doctor.

I hope you can see by now that these are completely contradictory statements, near immediately following each other.

Quote:


As there is no official school or degree for a shaman, the only people that we can accept as deserving this title are the ones who have the approval of their community.




Even though you just stated that the medical community could be wrong.
Never forgetting that it is never possible for members of the community receiving medical treatments to be wrong. :lol:
Not to mention that you just supported very ably the position that no official school or degree for being a doctor makes a doctor. :wink:

Quote:


A true shaman does not need recognition in order to do what they do.





Who said a question of need was even relevant? Sometimes accepting the title of the work you perform can actually be a good thing. That's why doctors do it. They nod and say "Yes ma'am, I'm a doctor.".
I see absolutely no reason why it makes any sense to think that it somehow makes sense for someone who performs a certain task should never identify themselves as being a do-er of said task.
I wonder how the Yellow Pages would be if no professional ever claimed themselves to be that kind of professional. Are you just supposed to start dialing from random names, or what?
Perhaps the community will ensure that word gets out of one's business so that they can survive? :rofl2:

Quote:


It is very possible for someone to fulfill the role without wearing the title.




Indeed. Not very practical, however, when one wants to actually support one's existence with the job that said title goes, quite naturally, with. :sorry:

Quote:


When an individual announces to a room that he or she is a shaman there's a good chance that they are doing this for their own selfish, personal gain.




Because being a shaman would imply that you were a human being that had to support your existence, and everyone knows it is so terrible for a human being to want to enjoy doing the work they most prefer while hopefully helping others, while, at the same time, continuing to live himself.

Quote:


If the individual is truly a shaman this fact would become obvious so there would be no need for a shaman to announce what he or she is to the room.




So what your saying is that a doctor who has self-pride and loves to identify himself as being a doctor and make it openly known to others is somehow negating his actual duties and skills of being a doctor by doing so?

No, duh, being a doctor is judged on the merits of being a doctor. It isn't determined by what people think of the doctor. Its about him actually being able to act and perform as a doctor.

Its no different with a shaman, dude. In fact, I'd think it is safe to say that a shaman, in more primitive times, was a doctor. Also, the fact that shamans existed then doesn't mean that people can't be shamans now and consider or announce themselves to be shamans. Just the same as carpenters.
The tools just change over time. :shrug:

Quote:


A shaman plays an important role as a spiritual healer and because there is no degree that someone can present as evidence, it is very true in this case that actions speak louder than words.




They always do. Not very many bright people go back to a doctor that demonstrates that they don't know how to be a doctor. Same goes for home repairmen who completely fuck up their projects. Why should it be different for a shaman?

Quote:


In fact, when someone claims to be a shaman before it is obvious they make it more likely that they will never be accepted as a shaman.




Never being accepted only by those who think it is the Law of the Jungle :monkeydance: to never self-identify with the fact that they are an identity who is performing specific tasks. Brighter people will realize that self-identity issues lie separate from ability to perform the specific, objective tasks of a given profession.
I don't think very many people would care if their heart surgeon was a cross-dresser after he performed triple-bypass surgery on them.
"What?! You just told me that you were a great doctor for saving my life?! You selfish bastard! You're 'less' of a doctor because of that!" Riiiiight. :rolleyes:

Quote:


and yes, these are my own personal thoughts on the subject.

The credibility is in the fact that it makes sense.




No, the credibility lies in the question of whether or not your point of view on the matter is congruent with reality.
The fact that you think you are making sense doesn't mean it has any relevance to reality.


By the way, you never answered MT's question on what you consider a true shaman to be. You know, ignoring the question under the shoddy pretense that she is somehow really out of line for herself to ask you what you thought on the matter, while at the same time expressing how ridiculous she thought what you were saying was, really doesn't seem to make sense to me. :wink: 
Sorry, but people are free to feel that other people's statements are ridiculous, and it doesn't violate any sort of universal butt-hurt rule to express that to others. It is simply an opinion. If you want to cry and feel dramatic about it, then go right ahead. Just don't pretend she is out of line for asking you to clarify what you think on something in a debate forum, or to have fun with expressing her opinions of the statements ridiculousness.

If you can't answer her question or can't admit that you can't, you can always just admit it. :hehehe:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10587753 - 06/28/09 05:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

As there is no official school or degree for a shaman, the only people that we can accept as deserving this title are the ones who have the approval of their community. A true shaman does not need recognition in order to do what they do. It is very possible for someone to fulfill the role without wearing the title.




How can you be sure of what a shaman needs or doesn't? Doesn't it strike you as odd to make such strong appreciations?
I do agree that it is very possible for someone to fulfill a role without wearing the title, but this in no way means that, if one is assuming and self-proclaiming a role, they aren't actually in that role, and that it is all a facade.
What is a real shaman? It is a question that I kept asking you and you refused to answer, saying that I am being a hypocrite, when in fact, by answering this question, you could have explained your POV and why you think a "real" shaman would never speak of themselves as being a shaman.
What makes you think that a shaman wouldn't need recognition? Don't you think it's a logical fallacy to automatically consider someone malevolent and an impostor, simply because they need the appreciation of those around them? How does the first lead to the latter? :strokebeard:

Quote:

When an individual announces to a room that he or she is a shaman there's a good chance that they are doing this for their own selfish, personal gain.




Since when does self-fulfillment come in contradiction with satisfying the needs of others?

Quote:

If the individual is truly a shaman this fact would become obvious so there would be no need for a shaman to announce what he or she is to the room.




In which way, specifically, would this become an obvious fact?

Quote:

A shaman plays an important role as a spiritual healer and because there is no degree that someone can present as evidence, it is very true in this case that actions speak louder than words.




Of course, but this doesn't mean that words are of no value, nor does it mean that, by saying those words, you're becoming a fake shaman. :lol:

Quote:

In fact, when someone claims to be a shaman before it is obvious they make it more likely that they will never be accepted as a shaman.




Can you prove the verity of this assertion?

I could go on to debating whether or not shamans actually exist, but I won't do that as I can see how this rather vague term can have meaning in the actual reality, especially in one's consciousness and psyche. I can see how the archetypal initiation rite can apply to one's life when for example experiencing a personal crisis accompanied by personal transformation and growth, and I can think about a handful of situations and stages when, identifying themselves with the wounded healer, one can really need the appreciation of their family or community.
The fact that you see this thing though negative lenses doesn't mean that the situation itself is bad, deceitful, or that the people who claim they're shamans are impostors.




Great post. :thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10587784 - 06/28/09 05:44 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I am amazed by how many people seem to know the meaning of the word 'Shaman' and how none of 'em agree with one another... unless they have some sort of red panda thing going on.

Somewhere, a real shaman is laughing. Yet none of us seem to be in on the joke.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Invisiblezen buddy
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Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704
Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10588035 - 06/28/09 06:44 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
By the way, you never answered MT's question on what you consider a true shaman to be.




If she wants to know what a shaman is she could look up the definition.

Is it wrong of me to assume that most of us here have a fairly good understanding of what a shaman is?

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Invisiblezen buddy
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Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704
Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10588179 - 06/28/09 07:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

zen buddy said:
Are you actually trying to compare doctors of Western medicine to shamans? Well, since you brought it up...




Yes, it is an apt comparison, just as it would be to any other profession wherein the individual is a tradesmen and their services are called upon by others, such as carpenter or insurance salesman.

Quote:


In order for a human being to become a doctor they have to first be recognized by their peers in the medical community. You cannot just decide to become a doctor and then all of a sudden claim to be a doctor, you have to earn this title.




Yet there are plenty of people out there who enjoy referring to themselves or fancying themselves as being doctors. Many doctors could be recognized by the medical community as being a doctor, but it doesn't mean they know anything about effectively being a doctor. So, clearly, with shamans, apparently it is possible to be a shaman that has earned the title, as well as to be a person who is not a shaman but likes to refer to themselves as being one, just the same as doctors.
Regarding doctors, as you said:

Quote:


There are thousands of doctors in the world who have taken the necessary courses, read the necessary books and passed the appropriate exams, yet they fail completely in the real world.




So, right now, you're saying that it isn't taking courses, reading books, and passing exams that determines that you are a doctor, but then you go on to say...

Quote:


How good of a doctor you are is determined by your patients and by your peers in the medical community and not by yourself.




Even though you just stated in plain English that what makes a doctor is the doctor themselves and their abilities of being a good doctor.

I hope you can see by now that these are completely contradictory statements, near immediately following each other.

Quote:


As there is no official school or degree for a shaman, the only people that we can accept as deserving this title are the ones who have the approval of their community.




Even though you just stated that the medical community could be wrong.
Never forgetting that it is never possible for members of the community receiving medical treatments to be wrong. :lol:
Not to mention that you just supported very ably the position that no official school or degree for being a doctor makes a doctor. :wink:

Quote:


A true shaman does not need recognition in order to do what they do.





Who said a question of need was even relevant? Sometimes accepting the title of the work you perform can actually be a good thing. That's why doctors do it. They nod and say "Yes ma'am, I'm a doctor.".
I see absolutely no reason why it makes any sense to think that it somehow makes sense for someone who performs a certain task should never identify themselves as being a do-er of said task.
I wonder how the Yellow Pages would be if no professional ever claimed themselves to be that kind of professional. Are you just supposed to start dialing from random names, or what?
Perhaps the community will ensure that word gets out of one's business so that they can survive? :rofl2:

Quote:


It is very possible for someone to fulfill the role without wearing the title.




Indeed. Not very practical, however, when one wants to actually support one's existence with the job that said title goes, quite naturally, with. :sorry:

Quote:


When an individual announces to a room that he or she is a shaman there's a good chance that they are doing this for their own selfish, personal gain.




Because being a shaman would imply that you were a human being that had to support your existence, and everyone knows it is so terrible for a human being to want to enjoy doing the work they most prefer while hopefully helping others, while, at the same time, continuing to live himself.

Quote:


If the individual is truly a shaman this fact would become obvious so there would be no need for a shaman to announce what he or she is to the room.




So what your saying is that a doctor who has self-pride and loves to identify himself as being a doctor and make it openly known to others is somehow negating his actual duties and skills of being a doctor by doing so?

No, duh, being a doctor is judged on the merits of being a doctor. It isn't determined by what people think of the doctor. Its about him actually being able to act and perform as a doctor.

Its no different with a shaman, dude. In fact, I'd think it is safe to say that a shaman, in more primitive times, was a doctor. Also, the fact that shamans existed then doesn't mean that people can't be shamans now and consider or announce themselves to be shamans. Just the same as carpenters.
The tools just change over time. :shrug:

Quote:


A shaman plays an important role as a spiritual healer and because there is no degree that someone can present as evidence, it is very true in this case that actions speak louder than words.




They always do. Not very many bright people go back to a doctor that demonstrates that they don't know how to be a doctor. Same goes for home repairmen who completely fuck up their projects. Why should it be different for a shaman?

Quote:


In fact, when someone claims to be a shaman before it is obvious they make it more likely that they will never be accepted as a shaman.




Never being accepted only by those who think it is the Law of the Jungle :monkeydance: to never self-identify with the fact that they are an identity who is performing specific tasks. Brighter people will realize that self-identity issues lie separate from ability to perform the specific, objective tasks of a given profession.
I don't think very many people would care if their heart surgeon was a cross-dresser after he performed triple-bypass surgery on them.
"What?! You just told me that you were a great doctor for saving my life?! You selfish bastard! You're 'less' of a doctor because of that!" Riiiiight. :rolleyes:

Quote:


and yes, these are my own personal thoughts on the subject.

The credibility is in the fact that it makes sense.




No, the credibility lies in the question of whether or not your point of view on the matter is congruent with reality.
The fact that you think you are making sense doesn't mean it has any relevance to reality.


By the way, you never answered MT's question on what you consider a true shaman to be. You know, ignoring the question under the shoddy pretense that she is somehow really out of line for herself to ask you what you thought on the matter, while at the same time expressing how ridiculous she thought what you were saying was, really doesn't seem to make sense to me. :wink: 
Sorry, but people are free to feel that other people's statements are ridiculous, and it doesn't violate any sort of universal butt-hurt rule to express that to others. It is simply an opinion. If you want to cry and feel dramatic about it, then go right ahead. Just don't pretend she is out of line for asking you to clarify what you think on something in a debate forum, or to have fun with expressing her opinions of the statements ridiculousness.

If you can't answer her question or can't admit that you can't, you can always just admit it. :hehehe:





Well it is obvious that you do not understand the point that I'm trying to make.

I will resist the urge to address each of your points as I risk of repeating myself. What I will do in attempts to have you better understand where I'm coming from is reiterate my comparisons.

If you are looking for a good doctor you would not look in the Yellow Pages to find an advertisement saying "I am a good doctor". You would hear about the good doctor through word-of-mouth. Similarly, if you were looking for a shaman you would not look for anyone claiming to be a shaman you would ask around the community. Most likely you would not trust someone to be a shaman just because they claim to be one. A true shaman would have helped many people in the community and you could locate this shaman through word-of-mouth.

Obviously if someone came knocking at the shaman's door and asked if he was a shaman he would admit that he was.

A shaman would not have to travel from community to community to advertise the fact that he is a shaman. Word of a shaman would naturally travel from community to community through word-of-mouth.

I'd like to thank you for taking the time to explain how you disagree as it sure does help the flow of respectful communication.

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