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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10402796 - 05/26/09 04:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10402827 - 05/26/09 04:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:cool:


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10402916 - 05/26/09 04:33 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Old world shamans, for the most part, took the roll of both preacher and doctor... since science as we know it had not yet been invented and the people of the time did not see any difference between either field. Now we do. Would you want a Catholic priest to give you a vasectomy?






Quote:

b0red5tiff said:    Quote:
  these days a psychologist is a shaman. the old goddesses and gods have been turned into archetypes and inner selves. i have seen a lot of people on these boards looking for an "authentic" image of a shamanic session. this is a pitfall of absurdity imo, there is no authentic shamanism. shamanism has never been a school or a course, it's been a spontaneous event taking place on different places on the globe without each others aid.
.




I agree with this


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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OfflineFraggin
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: daytripper23]
    #10404261 - 05/26/09 08:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Old World Shamans have been replaced with Plastic Shamans.

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Fraggin]
    #10404340 - 05/26/09 09:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Plastic is strong, durable, malleable, and lasts for a long time.  All good qualities for a shaman!


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: daytripper23]
    #10405212 - 05/26/09 11:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Does it merely take someone telling us what we're seeing, or should be seeing, in order for us to see it?




That is a psychological study I would be interested in seeing.




There were some simple experiments in which participants would be shown a line of a certain length. After seeing the line, they would be asked to pick the line that is the same length out of a group of 3 lines. A shorter line, a same sized line, and a longer line. The lines were noticeably different, and in control conditions participants were quite accurate in picking the correct line.

The experimental condition however made significant changes. They would set the participant in a room full of confederates. The participant believed that everyone was there for the same experiment, as were just other participants like themselves. When the set of 3 was shown, the confederates would either all choose the too short line, or all choose the too long line. The participant would follow suit, and choose the incorrect line, just to fit the majority.

This was obviously not 100%, but I find it interesting all the same.

There was further work which indicated if one confederate broke the consensus, the rate of correct answers vs majority answers shifted drastically. And they even went on to do further number work based around group size. For instance, and I'm making this up because I can't remember the exact numbers, but... a group of 7 would require 2 individuals to break the consensus or the effect was still too strong. Versus a group of 4 only needing 1.

I really should re-read that, because I  believe they had a way of examining the beliefs after. The question of does one retain the belief that the too short, or too long line, is in fact the correct line, after the masses are no longer present.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (05/26/09 11:32 PM)

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Kickle]
    #10410067 - 05/27/09 08:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:vineclimb:


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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InvisibleSoY
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: daytripper23]
    #10412508 - 05/28/09 09:01 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Shamans were never in touch with the Spirit World, they were just adept at selling that idea to the populace.




I think the concept of the *Spirit World* is attached to certain cultural definitions and literal interpretations more than it should be.  We can only speculate on the spectrum of infinite possible experiences a shaman has and relates to his tribe--from fraud to psychosis to an encounter with a legitimate plane of reality.  To accurately define the subjective experience of another being is impossible and to believe that one has done so is simply egotistical.  Maybe shamans ARE schizoid and that *malformed* state of awareness IS the *spirit world*? :shrug:

To me your quote is akin to claiming that a wise person who had a dream about someone is his community never really went to sleep and had that dream, but only was good at convincing that person he did.  Or like saying that the philosopher who experiences ego death and information exchange with psilocybin mushrooms did not really have that experience yet untruthfully told his book club all about it.

I do not know what the *spirit world* is. I only know of the realms I have been to and find useful to accomplish my goals...


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: SoY]
    #10413334 - 05/28/09 12:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

In the biographical book 'Wizard of the Upper Amazon', the author was captured by and  lived with an Amazonian tribe for several years. They used ayahuasca to divine when their enemies were about to attack them via 'the spirit world'. His tribe mistakenly slaughtered another peaceful tribe that had in no way prepared to attack.

The divination was merely a fear-based projection. While this one story proves little, none of the spirit world stories add up to anything other than imagination. McKenna's contact in 'True Hallucinations' made him certain the world was about to end. Nothing happened.


On an unrelated note, my 80 year old dad sent my his recent drawing of a wolf. thought you would appreciate it.



--------------------

Edited by OrgoneConclusion (06/05/09 04:20 AM)

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10413526 - 05/28/09 01:35 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

imagination is all there is. fear is also part of the spirit world, so to speak.


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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10458221 - 06/05/09 04:13 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

There is much that the subconscious can do and be aware of that lies far outside our normal experience of officially-sanctioned 2004 American reality. These, I’ll put into the category of psychic abilities or the parapsychological/paranormal interface with the exterior cosmos. However, that is not the subject of this discussion, for those activities are notoriously hard to pin down, perhaps by Design. What is the subject of this paper has already been determined by the intrinsic trajectory (aforementioned) of symbols themselves – that is, of reversion, reflection, the precession of simulacra: symbols unmask the essential fraud of the real in deference to the barebones machinery that renders our experience (of the real) to us, namely the brain-body complex. Symbols are the broomsticks of the child magician Mickey Mouse, getting out of hand by virtue of their ease of replication under the influence of the undisciplined mind, coping not with its tumultuous, overwhelming potentials. There are so many cultures, with their gods, so many ways of parsing the world, such a mesh (read: mess) of languages within languages, dialects, intonations and timbres of being, that it beckons the wizard’s return to tranquilize the din, and show the simple way to the markedly unmysterious mysteries of shamanism.

Before embarking on what ways a shaman achieves his magic, let us explore why anyone would ever want to be one of these fellows, and how the role came about. In some ways, it’s like the role of a director of motion pictures: when it comes down to it, everyone else’s job on a movie set takes care of every possible responsibility, so a director really has no job, no role. Yet, he is the single most important voice and vision in most pictures. He is not actually literally in the picture, but influences every part of it; he is like the wind that can’t itself be seen except through the leaves it blows about. He is the vision that actively if invisibly manifests itself by virtue of inherent magnetism, the surrounding community like iron filings, drawing into place magically. He is a manifester, a mediator. He stands alone. He takes the risk, and the blame. He sees visions, and uses the grammar of dreams to formulate a transmissible myth. He is a storyteller, of the tale that wags the dog (his community). He is the messenger that is the message. He gains power only through the tacit consensus of his people, and yet he has thereby ultimate power over them. He probes his subconscious so they don’t have to (only thing is, in delivering the performance, he’s probing and influencing theirs). The magicians of cinema wield a wand made of holly wood (it’s true, look it up), and in so many ways, they are the precise correlate, in quite different trappings, of the prototypical, primal madman shaman.

So again, why would a man want to be no man, the outsider, the in-betweener, the dreamer and fallguy? Who would want all the responsibility and risk, with no commitment of loyalty from anyone outside himself? Well, of course, he can’t help but to not be anything but exactly that. He is chosen by his own neurology, aka the spirits.

The shaman hallucinates outward his own traumas and self-image. He projects and relives universal birth traumas and that of his own death by ‘shamanic illness’ during the period of his ‘calling’ as a process of healing the other. He is the resurrected ‘wounded healer’, having suffered severe hysteria, epilepsy or schizophrenia, followed by psychological reintegration as one variation on the general theme of taking ill and undergoing the ordeal of self-healing. This process is echoed in the shaman’s astral journey of consciousness – employed for spiritual insight into the universe or for healing or divination – where death, dismemberment and devouring by spirits; subsequent reassembling, recharging and revivification by same; and rebirth into a renewed superself are experienced as a prodigious drama. The shamanic call process may, in a case like this, continue as increased internal anxiety followed by erratic behavior and social withdrawal, or it may consist of dreams, visions, or inner voices (Wright 4). In any case, seizure-like behaviors or periods of deep trance or unconsciousness may also be part of the awakening metamorphosis of the shaman.




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Invisiblerebus_minus
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread *DELETED* [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10458831 - 06/05/09 09:02 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: rebus_minus]
    #10458882 - 06/05/09 09:15 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So, the first, and most divine call of the shaman is spontaneous epilepsy that forms the neurological substrate for cultivated shamanic trance skill. This ‘shamanic illness’, cropping up maybe at age 9 or very likely around 20, even 45 in some cases, but usually in youth, is the most blatant, cut and dried indicator to the community that this person has a destiny. And, sure enough, epileptics tend to have the personality traits that draw them into the role. In fact, by reputation, a shamanic session generally looks like he’s having a fit, right down to frothing at the mouth, violently striking out at unknown assailants, speaking in tongues, and finally collapsing unconscious only to be aroused moments later with total amnesia (to the amazement of his tribesfolk, keen to hear of his amazing ‘journey’). If no epileptics are available, schizophrenics, the unstably overly-anxious, hysterics, and any other clinical weirdoes will suffice. The shaman must be an outsider, for the realm outside of which he sees is the reality box that sits squarely over his regional culture, of which it is largely unaware. His shaman’s legs are spring-loaded to clear leap over the pseudo-walls of their linguistic, symbolic social mouse maze.

No wonder he discerns his own sacred language. They call it the language of the birds (what else?). Often it will be gifted by an elder shaman, if it is the type of lineage or tradition that emphasizes apprenticeship. Other times, it will spontaneously erupt as glossolalia during ecstasy or seizure, in which case it is the dreamtime spurging out through his loose mouth in gross vocables. Likewise, his hallucinations (aka visions) slice and ramble onto the carefully manicured, crystallized through habit, comfortable and reliable realities of the rank and file members of his group. A prisoner to his loneliness, he is the freest of men. He has no real friends, but feels intimately the cosmic fibers that feed him and bind him to the infinite brotherhood. He is outside of time, while trudging through it. He is the only one kicking and screaming, because everyone else seems to take it so calmly in stride.

Again, who would want this role? For it is true some who aren’t explicitly selected genetically by the gods do choose it and inquire about the study of its mysteries. A shaman’s magic functions largely on the power of his reputation (This speaks volumes about the nature of the magic employed, most by implication and power of suggestion, group field effects.). He is a frustrated, temperamental ‘über-reflection’ of his society at large. He is the mocking exaggeration of their zeitgeist in which he is embroiled (only less so than the rest of the human herd). He is the transgression into the universal, eternal humanness, stripped of all bearings and headings of culture. He simulates the artificial structures of his people: anything solid is his to dissolve into seething dream, his dance a crazy mimic. He breaks unseen boundaries like language, taboo, and, legend has it, gravity. Yes, he is the free fool. And the power in this free fool who is the simulation itself (of both physical and cultural trappings) is that he is physically a constant reminder of the body-machine and culturally the tail that wags the dog. By rearranging and reordering and subverting the symbols and roles and expectations of his particular culture, he dispenses through his charisma a magical social lubricant which, because it’s so patently insane, reinforces the coherency and integrity of the group. He is the sounding board echoing from the fringe that reminds everyone of their living identity.

He can play his culture like a game, and his intuition is perked to sense the nearest sore nexus of social stagnation or repression, an excessive element begging to be slapped back into place, the node from which huge cultural pivots can be made, time and place; he can turn the tide. He is a leader among men. Some would want this role. Some would rather be shaman than chief, for the shaman is anointed by the higher authority of nature, crowned by fate, obvious to all in his airs, aura, and actions. The chief or king relies on clear symbols like headdress or crown and scepter, a throne. He dares not tinker with the accepted illusional vestments of power. The shaman clown on the other hand adroitly specializes in exactly this tinkering and tweaking of the social fabric. He is often at the same time rival to and right-hand-man of the chief. His bread and butter is an artistic and cosmic knowledge of the field of social constructs that the chief re-invokes daily, administratively.

Given this, how does the shaman literally manifest magical effects and perform miracles? The keyword is ‘effects’, and the answer is: any way he can. Placebo, hypnotic, suggestive, implicative, shocking, no matter, the effect is primary, and his target is the nervous system. In contrast to the western doctor who, pinned under this thoroughly modern (again invisible) edifice of the dogma of science, does not recognize much effect his own experience, mindset, languageing, and social behavior has on the healing proceedings, the shaman uses his own nervous system to assert change in that of his onlookers. It is well established that many if most shamans use a degree of illusionary magic, trickery, or outright fraud in their performances and healings. The general anthropological consensus is that this makes them fakes, and invalidates shamanism. However, in light of modern science telling us that a placebo works 8 times out of 10 as often as an aspirin in providing relief, it really seems it’s the lack of standardization, centralization, replicability, and, well, hygiene in shamanism that offends western, science-based mentalities.

Two case examples will elucidate the suggestive mechanism at work in a shaman’s magic. But first, a note on framing the experience. As Claude Levi-Strauss has said, “the efficacy of magic implies a belief in magic.” The magic must be framed with three components that play off each other: 1. the shaman’s belief in the efficacy of his magic, 2. the patient’s belief in the shaman’s power, and 3. the faith and expectations of the group that recognizes the shaman’s role in relation to those he works his magic on, which validates, defines, and locates the relationships therein (24). I carefully note that essentially this ‘group’ need not even exist, for it only functions by implication perceived in both the mind of the shaman and that of the patient. It includes all generalized preconceived fantasy ideals the patient may bring of the powers of shamans from legend as well as a sense of this particular shaman’s reputation (i.e. he has merely ‘heard’ that this shaman is highly respected by his people). All this boils down to the bypassing of the patient’s protective mechanisms so as to create a state of high suggestibility. The virtues of this state are the untapped powers of the subconscious for spontaneous remission of many types of diseases, which is covered at length in Dr. Andrew Weil’s Spontaneous Healing.




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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10459335 - 06/05/09 11:12 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said: As Claude Levi-Strauss has said, �the efficacy of magic implies a belief in magic.� The magic must be framed with three components that play off each other: 1. the shaman�s belief in the efficacy of his magic, 2. the patient�s belief in the shaman�s power, and 3. the faith and expectations of the group that recognizes the shaman�s role in relation to those he works his magic on, which validates, defines, and locates the relationships therein (24).




I know the shaman's belief in his own magic is necessary, but is it truly necessary for the patient to also believe in it?  Don't many magicians claim that curses and healing spells work just as well if the target person is oblivious to their intentions?

That being said I'll also agree that the placebo effect can be truly powerful if the patient believes that he or she will get healed.  And nice writeup; who wrote this?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: deCypher]
    #10459498 - 06/05/09 11:46 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It seems that a shaman's expertise is found in between placebo and substantial causality, which is an entirely different form of leverage than what "modern civilization" is accustomed to. He doesn't seem to fall into traditional western categories of knowledge such as either the "natural science", where as you describe, it could only be described as "real magic"; or in the humanities, where his practice would only be recognized as a contrived manifestation of substance in the "unbiased", ethereal realm of semiotics...

...Or whatever, or however you would like to describe that traditional divide.

The question is whether the apparent margin between these territories contains a unique realm of knowledge of its own, and I would say undoubtedly yes. We are already functioning in that realm, though we do not recognize this.

We call it technology, the inevitable, immanent force of science and its drive that is human bias:

1615, "discourse or treatise on an art or the arts," from Gk. tekhnologia "systematic treatment of an art, craft, or technique," originally referring to grammar, from tekhno- (see techno-) + -logia. The meaning "science of the mechanical and industrial arts" is first recorded 1859. High technology attested from 1964; short form high-tech is from 1972. Tech as a short form of Technical College (Institute, etc.) is Amer.Eng., attested from 1906.

I think the shaman is an acknowledged "technologist" of sort.




--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (06/05/09 02:40 PM)

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Invisiblemad_cow
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10459742 - 06/05/09 12:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I would be closer to a curandero than a shaman.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: mad_cow]
    #10459849 - 06/05/09 01:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
I would be closer to a curandero than a shaman.




It's all about being a brujo.  :cool:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: deCypher]
    #10462400 - 06/06/09 05:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I know the shaman's belief in his own magic is necessary, but is it truly necessary for the patient to also believe in it?  Don't many magicians claim that curses and healing spells work just as well if the target person is oblivious to their intentions?

That being said I'll also agree that the placebo effect can be truly powerful if the patient believes that he or she will get healed.  And nice writeup; who wrote this?



i wouldn't say it's necessary. he knows its not magic but something nameless that will take any form it has to in order to work. and i think there's a big difference between "shaman" - "magician".

it was written by Hadley Harkrader, full article here:
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/diehtu/siida/shaman/trans.htm


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Invisiblemad_cow
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #10463690 - 06/06/09 10:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I gave up on this what is a shaman am I a shaman business a long time ago. As long as I can play with the spirits I don't need a label.

I think a lot of it is in your view of how the world works. Belief in things like invasive energies, spirits, and soul-fragmentation are all a part of shamanism. If you don't believe in those things it is like saying you are a Christian who doesn't believe in Jesus.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: mad_cow]
    #10463801 - 06/06/09 11:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Shamanism is a religion now, complete with dogma and all?
Wow, sweet, maybe we can pin it down now.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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