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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
#10537783 - 06/19/09 03:36 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
b0red5tiff said: well... this thread isn't really about psychedelics but the symptoms of shamanic initiation and about the related phenomena. psychedelics is just the dominant angle of the shroomery and the best angle for this topic to be approached imo.
Wow, you just played BOTH sides in that last post.
Why have a discussion here, when you can argue with yourself?
Look, I was deathly ill as a child, and I saw a U.F.O. (really), I've tripped more times than I care to count.
BUT this isn't 10,000 years ago and I live in a 'civilized' country.
I am not a Shaman, but with my experience, I may have become one if I'd been born long ago and into a different culture.
Today, I make a better candidate for... wait for it... becoming an artist.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rose]
#10537799 - 06/19/09 03:38 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I cast my vote for Cervantes as Forum Shaman.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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I will not seek the nomination for forum Shaman, and if nominated I will not run.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rose]
#10537834 - 06/19/09 03:42 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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as you may have read through the thread there are no strict guidelines to it like becoming a plumber.
it doesn't matter what year it is as these things have occurred for about 40,000 years (when humans indistinguishable from us today evolved) to this day and it will keep occurring despite authority figures stating experiences like this aren't possible and if you're having them then you need to block them with meds.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,694
Loc: On the Border
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rose]
#10537845 - 06/19/09 03:44 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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You can't run for it it has to be declared. You are now shaman. The Tungus may sue you for this. I am sure they have lawyers by now.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
#10537857 - 06/19/09 03:45 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
b0red5tiff said: as you may have read through the thread there are no strict guidelines to it like becoming a plumber.
it doesn't matter what year it is as these things have occurred for about 40,000 years (when humans indistinguishable from us today evolved) to this day and it will keep occurring despite authority figures stating experiences like this aren't possible and if you're having them then you need to block them with meds.
Well, you certainly know how to spell, "You're"... but your punctuation and capitalization needs work.
Since you are an expert in this Shaman subject, you should start a training school for other wannabe Shamans... and make some quick cash. Just don't poison the Cool-Aid... 'cause your potential students will believe anything.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rose]
#10537879 - 06/19/09 03:48 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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i'm glad you are skeptical and not willing to give useful input on this topic but if all you wanna do is spam then there's the kids corner at OTD you'd feel awfully at home with.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#10537880 - 06/19/09 03:48 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: You can't run for it it has to be declared. You are now shaman. The Tungus may sue you for this. I am sure they have lawyers by now.
Well, fuck me!
I guess, since I am now a soon-to-be-sued Shaman, I should challenge Bored to a Sham-off!
He just chose the location... OTD.
So I get to choose the weapons... and I choose PUNCTUATION.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
#10537920 - 06/19/09 03:53 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
b0red5tiff said: i'm glad you are skeptical and not willing to give useful input on this topic but if all you wanna do is spam then there's the kids corner at OTD you'd feel awfully at home with.
Don't end a statement with a preposition... on.
I have a feeling you are not really glad I am a skeptic... for.
Who is ever really glad nowadays... with?
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rose]
#10537935 - 06/19/09 03:56 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Here is Cervantes merging artistic expression and sham-anism:
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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I absorb damn near everything. Squeeze me hard enough and you'll see I'm pert' near full of water.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Rocker232
Stranger
Registered: 10/17/08
Posts: 6,631
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: How long you been here now?
Miracles are relegated to an age when men were less rational and superstition was rife.
I feel sorry for all the mushrooms and LSD you have wasted by ingesting it on yourself.
--------------------
With Allure I Look to the Sky With Awakened Eyes
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Rocker232]
#10539253 - 06/19/09 08:04 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey, that's original and not at all egocentric. Let me translate for those not into obscure slams:
"I, Rocker32, am the supreme arbiter of what should happen after you ingest psychedelics. Anyone not feeling exactly as I do does not 'get it'".
Who here can distinguish this attitiude from that of a religious fundamentalist?
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Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
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Quote:
Kenneth Ring says that abduction experiences can be regarded as a variation of the archetypal initiatory journey, with its familiar sequence of separation, ordeal, and return. The separation stage is the abduction, with the individual usually being spirited away against his or her will. The ordeal takes the form of the medical examination, which can be compared to the dismemberment motifs in traditional shamanic initiations. Among the Buryat of Siberia, the shamanic apprentice is taken away by his ancestors, and then tormented by the Saajtani, who poke around his belly with knives, cutting whole chunks of flesh off him, and throwing them about. The 'spirits' cook his flesh to 'ripen' it, and the initiate acquires his inner knowledge during this procedure.
After being examined, abductees, like shamans, may receive teachings, instructions, or revelations. Finally they return to their normal surroundings. They frequently suffer feelings of confusion, disorientation, time loss, and memory impairment, but there is often a sense that something extraordinary has happened that will leave a lasting imprint. Ring argues that, like near-death experiences, which are another variant of the initiatory journey, abductions take place in an alternate reality -- the 'imaginal realm'.
There are often significant surface differences between UFO encounters, angelic visitations, shamanic journeys, and near-death experiences. Yet, as Keith Thompson says,
in all of these realms we find archetypal images of initiation involving otherworldly journeys amid extraordinary -- and apparently autonomous -- beings. Many ufologists, seeking to keep their precious field of study unique and discrete, question such parallels because, they say, there is no evidence that the beings described in non-UFO reports are 'from the same place' as UFO beings. What they seldom point out is that there is no evidence, either, of where 'UFO beings' are from! t requires an act of will not to notice thematic parallels between ceremonies of dismemberment undergone by shamanic initiates inside traditional round initiation huts, on the one hand, and the invisible 'medical' procedures experienced by UFO initiates inside rounded operating theatres inside disk- or oval-shaped craft, on the other.
Paul Devereux mentions the intriguing work going on with DMT, the most hallucinogenic substance known. It is produced naturally in the human brain and occurs in psychedelic plants that have been used by shamanic peoples from time immemorial. For years people who have used this substance have reported rather similar experiences, such as encountering alien intelligences. Also noteworthy are the experiences of a man who has experimented with trying to enter the lucid dream state directly from the waking state. He reported that, deep into the extreme relaxation and concentration required, he is interrupted by the tangible experience of being 'examined in the dark by robots' or being 'operated on by small beings'.
Some researchers suggest that the 'aliens' are reflections of ourselves -- alien-ated, dis-eased with ourselves and one another, and with the dis-spirited, impersonal, and uncontrollable society we live in. In a similar vein, Michael Grosso interprets abductions as symbolic evidence for disturbances in the collective unconscious. Visions of unhealthy-looking beings (the grays), who sometimes claim to come from a dying planet, who examine captives and take genetic material to create a hybrid species mean 'we are the sick ones, and ... we, as a species living on planet Earth, are in need of regeneration'. The fetal appearance of these beings suggests the child, the continuity of human life. According to Grosso, 'The "new man," the future of the species, is in great danger -- our future is threatened with extinction. ... If we learn to cooperate with the forces of rebirth, we may yet rise from the "examination table," resuscitated from our planetary near-death experience'.
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Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Bridgeburner]
#10542584 - 06/20/09 12:57 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/06/the-call-spontaneous-initiation/
There’s been a ton of interesting points come up in the recent debates on this site. One that I find especially compelling is the “then vs. now” argument about shamanism, magic, etc. Basically, the argument goes like this: that in “traditional” cultures up until a certain time period (very recently), people didn’t run around buying books and taking courses to become a shaman. It was something that happened to people, that chose people on an individual basis. And it was not altogether pleasant. That is, certain members of the tribe would experience a severe natural initiation of some kind, whether it was a near death experience, an intense illness, mental breakdown, or visitation by spirits. Because of this experience, the would-be shaman was more or less cast outside of the normal world of the tribe, and pretty much the only thing that could be done was for another shaman to take them under their wing and train them in the mysteries.
Nowadays though, it seems to work like that less and less - and perhaps that explains some of the problem that arise in these spiritual groups today. Rarely do we see people who experience an “authentic” initiation (whatever that is) who then become our modern shamans. The vast majority of people get into it simply because they are curious or because they’ve “always been interested in it” or possibly because they think it’s gonna be cool and give them some kind of special powers. People who do seem to experience genuine initiation (maybe something along the order of a UFO abduction, for argument’s sake) are generally seen as basically crazy, and we don’t pay them a lot of serious attention. We also don’t accept them on their own terms, and we try to slot their experiences into a mundane framework, rather than accepting it as shamanism or magic or whatever.
Interestingly, in a lot of the shamanic traditions, as described by Mircea Eliade, we hear legends of something called the “decadence” of shamanism. By this he means that shamans tell tales of previous generations having been much much more powerful, that the current traditions are in decay. This perspective comes from actual real shamanic traditions too. Apply this to “Barnes & Noble shamanism” and I’m sure we could make an even more compelling point.
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justamonkey
Stranger
Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 292
Loc: Upstairs
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: Mufungo]
#10550863 - 06/21/09 11:09 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mufungo said: I don't think there are many occupations in the modern age which haven't come a long way from their initial roots.
Does it really matter if a shaman of today isn't like a shaman of long ago (assuming that there really were "shamans" long ago)? I guess it might depend on one's own values around tradition.
Any Shaman that's worth his salt isn't any more the same from one second to the next as he is concerned with being called a Shaman at all. In fact, the one thing a Shaman of any caliber would not call himself, and certainly not question the title as if he doesn't know what he's doing.
All the crap I've ever heard about Shaman's is crap. The only good ones are the ones you'll never hear of, cause they do the deal so smoothly, you'd never know the shit went down at all. And that's the way it goes.
A Shaman wouldn't even need a title, (s)he'd just take control without any effort at all, and there wouldn't be shit you could do to convince them otherwise.
-------------------- [quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda
Edited by justamonkey (06/21/09 11:11 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread [Re: justamonkey]
#10551196 - 06/22/09 12:08 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Any Shaman that's worth his salt isn't any more the same from one second to the next as he is concerned with being called a Shaman at all. In fact, the one thing a Shaman of any caliber would not call himself, and certainly not question the title as if he doesn't know what he's doing.
Oh, oh! Me, me, I am not a shaman in the least.
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justamonkey
Stranger
Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 292
Loc: Upstairs
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It certainly is awesome for us non-shaman folks.
-------------------- [quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda
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zen buddy
not a buddhist
Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: Bridgeburner]
#10580686 - 06/27/09 07:39 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't see any benefit for a healer to self identify as a shaman. If an individual is a true shaman their friends, family and community will recognize them as a shaman without introducing themselves as a shaman. This is probably why people who claim to be a shaman suffer so much ridicule because they are obviously getting ahead of themselves in trying to achieve some sort of social status. A true shaman would just do their thing without any need for recognition.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: THE "I think i might be a SHAMAN" thread ***UFO encounters as initiation*** [Re: zen buddy]
#10580689 - 06/27/09 07:45 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
A true shaman would just do their thing without any need for recognition.
Did you read "the book to being a true shaman"?
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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