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Offlinerunnerup
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should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use?
    #3571762 - 01/02/05 06:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone believes Entheogens should only be used for spiritual use. Or can they be used for what ever you want to use them for?

Was hoping I could get a discussion about this on the radio.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3572166 - 01/02/05 07:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

when you're on the spiritual trip, you're on the spiritual trip - psychedelics or not, you're on the spiritual trip.

if you want to get high, use drugs. why bother refering to them as entheogens? if you want to be high, entheogens might be employed on occasion, they're good medicine. but when you want to be high, when do you decide to stop and do something else? that's not the way one's sadhana, or spiritual journey, works.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisiblePaou
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Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 376
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3572201 - 01/02/05 07:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I try not to have any purpose when I trip. I let the trip take me wherever and go with the flow. If it goes in a spiritual direction, so be it. If not, that's fine too.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3572243 - 01/02/05 07:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Like CJ said, if you realize that life is a spiritual trip, then you realize life is a spiritual trip. If one has such a realization, then one can't pretend that something 'doesn't matter,' when everything matters. One can't pretend that life is meaningful, then take periodic vacations from that perception and act profanely. I mean, lots of people from all faiths do that kind of thing, but they're pretending to believe that life is meaningful in the first place, and only taking vacations from their shallow beliefs. It's the old 'let's whore around and get drunk Saturday night and repent Sunday morning' story. Or, 'let's be an upstanding physician most of the time, but travel to Thailand four times a year to f**k children kidnapped to whorehouses'like the guy 20/20 followed, filmed and busted on US TV.

When one realizes the sacrality of life but also sees the evil which profanes that Truth, one has to take a stand and it can't be on both sides of the fence. What are you gonna act on, and what are you gonna acknowledge but suppress?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinerunnerup
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Registered: 03/23/04
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3572749 - 01/02/05 09:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If you trip just to trip as in Paou says. Is that commiting sin?

For example wouldent you want to please god by doing everything for god. Example If you took a trip you would take it for god, hence commiting a spiritual trip.

Would this be the arguement in why all trips should be spiritual, or for god.

as CJ mentions about "drugs", wouldnt this would be evil?


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3572785 - 01/02/05 09:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

God is all of existence.  Doing something for yourself IS doing it for god, just as doing things for others is.  In any case, if you spirituality with god, then the mushrooms still have much to show you, my friend. :sun:


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3573146 - 01/02/05 11:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If you feel they should only be used spiritually, stick with it.

Personally I enjoy eatin a bunch of mushrooms with a bunch of friends and sittin around, or runnin around, laughing like a fool.

Though in a certain light such things could be called spiritual, I don't consider it so.. but I'm just a godless heathen monkey anyway.

Regardless of the spiritual factor, I'd definately say they're not an 'any time, any place' drug.. but that's just good sense.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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Offlineguri
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3573805 - 01/03/05 02:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

so when you trip for fun, its that simple you trip for fun.

when you trip for "spiritual reasons" in the end you have to wonder if what you learned spiritualy only serves to help you live a better live that could possibly be more fun. (sorry i cant seem to get the right words to express this idea)

i guess what im trying to say is that weather your tripping for fun or for "spiritual expiernce" in the end your still just tripping to satisfy some desire.


--------------------
"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3573903 - 01/03/05 02:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

referring to psychoactive substances as entheogens automatically implies spiritual use...


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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3573922 - 01/03/05 03:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

every time i "trip" its "spritiual"

Every "moment" of my life has been spiritual, but to realize this you must be awake, and i havent been awake my whole life.

i hope someone sees what i am trying to describe.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: psikooz]
    #3574333 - 01/03/05 07:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If you mean spiritual as in 'contributing to mental change', I agree. I don't agree if you mean to imply that every moment in life is somehow related to advancing on your spiritual path (working can be quite non-spiritual).

As for trips: I think they're only spiritual on a confrontational level. They confront you with who you are, where you've been, what masks you have been wearing and what crosses you have been bearing. I do not believe they allow contact with an (or multiple) external deity (deities).


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: Paou]
    #3575785 - 01/03/05 07:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That is just egotism and self-idolatry. Acting for oneself is not acting for GOD. GOD is not-self, other-than-self, prior-to-self, and ontologically prior-to-existence, which is to say, GOD transcends existence - unless one is a pantheist. Not everyone is pantheistic. Jews, Christians and Muslims certainly are not.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3575844 - 01/03/05 07:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

There is not gonna be any holy writ that is gonna spell that out for you. All things can be consecrated to GOD and all things can be taken profanely. Sexual intercourse with someone you care nothing for, or with whom you don't even like, just for the lusty thrill and release is profane. Sexual intercourse with someone whom you love can be considered a Sacrament. In the East it's called Tantra, in the West it's called Holy Matrimony (whether or not it's on paper and legal).

A bottle of wine being guzzled on the street is mundane, if not profane, but that same wine can be consecrated as a Sacrament in Christian and in some Pagan rites, not to mention a 'Rajic Guna' in Tantra.

Mushrooms can be taken just like the wine example above - mundane-profane or Sacred. The difference lies in one's intention. Intention, Words and Substance are the 3 elements that contribute to the formation of a Sacrament in Catholic
theology. That is why a lay person can baptize someone with sand or with sea water or with urine, without even knowing the Rite of Baptism, but the Intention can be present and sufficient for the profane substance (e.g., urine) to take on Sacred meaning. That's a world of difference from giving someone a 'golden shower.' :smile:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3575934 - 01/03/05 07:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yes, but the rules are unwritten.


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3579054 - 01/04/05 01:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
That is just egotism and self-idolatry. Acting for oneself is not acting for GOD. GOD is not-self, other-than-self, prior-to-self, and ontologically prior-to-existence, which is to say, GOD transcends existence - unless one is a pantheist. Not everyone is pantheistic. Jews, Christians and Muslims certainly are not.



Perhaps I should have included the disclaimer that my views are mine and mine alone, and do not conform to any organized set of beliefs, but I thought that was obvious.


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Invisiblejux
I'm better thanan STD!

Registered: 04/06/04
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3579092 - 01/04/05 01:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
That is just egotism and self-idolatry. Acting for oneself is not acting for GOD. GOD is not-self, other-than-self, prior-to-self, and ontologically prior-to-existence, which is to say, GOD transcends existence - unless one is a pantheist. Not everyone is pantheistic. Jews, Christians and Muslims certainly are not.




Oh, so you must know thi God fellow personally then? Does he come by and crash at your pad for mad smoke sessions? No... you don't and he doesn't.

How can you say what god is and what god is not? God is an idea, an intangible concept that exists in our minds. Each man has his own idea of god. Your idea is not the only idea and is deffinitely not provable in any fashion. If one believes that all of existence is God and that by having fun one is allowing God to enjoy these experiences, then it is no less correct than your assupmtion that god is beyond our frame of existence.


--------------------


Edited by jux (01/04/05 04:59 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3579275 - 01/04/05 02:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It is possible to live one's life in devotion to the spirit where every act is sacred. Our lives that we were given are sacred so why should not the living of that life. One must only give everything due consideration and respect. If this is done the profane can often be transformed into the sacred. Taking joy in life is the single most sacred act one can undertake...all else will flow from this. This statement goes deeper than you suppose so think it out before posting a response...if anyone is inclined to respond, that is.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3579992 - 01/04/05 05:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What is with the duality between "spirituality" and life? It's a whole lotta bullshit if you ask me. Categorizing things as spiritual and not spiritual is fucked up, but then so is the whole concept of duality and thats the fundamental concept of western civilization.


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OfflineRainbowDrops
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3580074 - 01/04/05 05:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

People may use entheogens as they wish. All drugs are for alterations on consciousness. Over time humans have been trying to alter their consciousness, because the crystal-clear seems so utilitarian. Most don't reach complete enlightenment totally through their given perception & are therefore dissatisfied. I personally use entheogens for both reasons, perceptual change & enlightenment. There's nothing like the thought flow that can be given from a few grams of mushrooms. Feeling like you've solved it all. On the flip side, it's nice just to see the artwork of the mind form fractals in your eye lids.
It's all about flying; it's just depends on a person's wingspan...how high (perfect word, eh?) you wanna go.
:hypno: :hypno: :hypno: :eyeball: :hypno: :hypno: :hypno:


--------------------
mmmm, spacecake


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: jux]
    #3581107 - 01/04/05 09:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Whatever GOD is, GOD is not merely an idea. GOD may be responsible for the Idea of GOD to occur to human intellect, as St. Anselm to interestingly argued, but the very metaphysical infrastructure of existence is not merely an idea.

I am partaking of a 'GOD-notion' that is held by all the high religions. It did not originate with me, and indeed, the utter transcendence of GOD HAS been my experience at the most profound moments of my life. Of course, we are all free to maintain any idiosyncratic belief, but the more fine-tuned one's psyche becomes through one's ardent practice, the more easily can one throw out silly ideas about Deity. I don't care what you worship, unless you're on some mission in life that threatens my well-being, and frankly, I don't know the limits of what you believe you're justified in doing - for 'GOD.' Your idiosyncratic ideas of "fun" might be like others before you who climb a tower with a rifle. What you describe does not resemble any religious tenet that I have ever come upon. GOD isn't about your fun, friend.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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