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should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use?
    #3571762 -

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone believes Entheogens should only be used for spiritual use. Or can they be used for what ever you want to use them for?

Was hoping I could get a discussion about this on the radio.


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The Runnerup Show
runnerup@shroomery.org

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3572166 -

when you're on the spiritual trip, you're on the spiritual trip - psychedelics or not, you're on the spiritual trip.

if you want to get high, use drugs. why bother refering to them as entheogens? if you want to be high, entheogens might be employed on occasion, they're good medicine. but when you want to be high, when do you decide to stop and do something else? that's not the way one's sadhana, or spiritual journey, works.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3572201 -

I try not to have any purpose when I trip. I let the trip take me wherever and go with the flow. If it goes in a spiritual direction, so be it. If not, that's fine too.

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3572243 -

Like CJ said, if you realize that life is a spiritual trip, then you realize life is a spiritual trip. If one has such a realization, then one can't pretend that something 'doesn't matter,' when everything matters. One can't pretend that life is meaningful, then take periodic vacations from that perception and act profanely. I mean, lots of people from all faiths do that kind of thing, but they're pretending to believe that life is meaningful in the first place, and only taking vacations from their shallow beliefs. It's the old 'let's whore around and get drunk Saturday night and repent Sunday morning' story. Or, 'let's be an upstanding physician most of the time, but travel to Thailand four times a year to f**k children kidnapped to whorehouses'like the guy 20/20 followed, filmed and busted on US TV.

When one realizes the sacrality of life but also sees the evil which profanes that Truth, one has to take a stand and it can't be on both sides of the fence. What are you gonna act on, and what are you gonna acknowledge but suppress?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3572749 -

If you trip just to trip as in Paou says. Is that commiting sin?

For example wouldent you want to please god by doing everything for god. Example If you took a trip you would take it for god, hence commiting a spiritual trip.

Would this be the arguement in why all trips should be spiritual, or for god.

as CJ mentions about "drugs", wouldnt this would be evil?


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The Runnerup Show
runnerup@shroomery.org

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3572785 -

God is all of existence.  Doing something for yourself IS doing it for god, just as doing things for others is.  In any case, if you spirituality with god, then the mushrooms still have much to show you, my friend. :sun:

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3573146 -

If you feel they should only be used spiritually, stick with it.

Personally I enjoy eatin a bunch of mushrooms with a bunch of friends and sittin around, or runnin around, laughing like a fool.

Though in a certain light such things could be called spiritual, I don't consider it so.. but I'm just a godless heathen monkey anyway.

Regardless of the spiritual factor, I'd definately say they're not an 'any time, any place' drug.. but that's just good sense.


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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3573805 -

so when you trip for fun, its that simple you trip for fun.

when you trip for "spiritual reasons" in the end you have to wonder if what you learned spiritualy only serves to help you live a better live that could possibly be more fun. (sorry i cant seem to get the right words to express this idea)

i guess what im trying to say is that weather your tripping for fun or for "spiritual expiernce" in the end your still just tripping to satisfy some desire.


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"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3573903 -

referring to psychoactive substances as entheogens automatically implies spiritual use...

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3573922 -

every time i "trip" its "spritiual"

Every "moment" of my life has been spiritual, but to realize this you must be awake, and i havent been awake my whole life.

i hope someone sees what i am trying to describe.

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: psikooz]
    #3574333 -

If you mean spiritual as in 'contributing to mental change', I agree. I don't agree if you mean to imply that every moment in life is somehow related to advancing on your spiritual path (working can be quite non-spiritual).

As for trips: I think they're only spiritual on a confrontational level. They confront you with who you are, where you've been, what masks you have been wearing and what crosses you have been bearing. I do not believe they allow contact with an (or multiple) external deity (deities).


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: Paou]
    #3575785 -

That is just egotism and self-idolatry. Acting for oneself is not acting for GOD. GOD is not-self, other-than-self, prior-to-self, and ontologically prior-to-existence, which is to say, GOD transcends existence - unless one is a pantheist. Not everyone is pantheistic. Jews, Christians and Muslims certainly are not.

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3575844 -

There is not gonna be any holy writ that is gonna spell that out for you. All things can be consecrated to GOD and all things can be taken profanely. Sexual intercourse with someone you care nothing for, or with whom you don't even like, just for the lusty thrill and release is profane. Sexual intercourse with someone whom you love can be considered a Sacrament. In the East it's called Tantra, in the West it's called Holy Matrimony (whether or not it's on paper and legal).

A bottle of wine being guzzled on the street is mundane, if not profane, but that same wine can be consecrated as a Sacrament in Christian and in some Pagan rites, not to mention a 'Rajic Guna' in Tantra.

Mushrooms can be taken just like the wine example above - mundane-profane or Sacred. The difference lies in one's intention. Intention, Words and Substance are the 3 elements that contribute to the formation of a Sacrament in Catholic
theology. That is why a lay person can baptize someone with sand or with sea water or with urine, without even knowing the Rite of Baptism, but the Intention can be present and sufficient for the profane substance (e.g., urine) to take on Sacred meaning. That's a world of difference from giving someone a 'golden shower.' :smile:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3575934 -

yes, but the rules are unwritten.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3579054 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
That is just egotism and self-idolatry. Acting for oneself is not acting for GOD. GOD is not-self, other-than-self, prior-to-self, and ontologically prior-to-existence, which is to say, GOD transcends existence - unless one is a pantheist. Not everyone is pantheistic. Jews, Christians and Muslims certainly are not.


Perhaps I should have included the disclaimer that my views are mine and mine alone, and do not conform to any organized set of beliefs, but I thought that was obvious.

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3579092 -

Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
That is just egotism and self-idolatry. Acting for oneself is not acting for GOD. GOD is not-self, other-than-self, prior-to-self, and ontologically prior-to-existence, which is to say, GOD transcends existence - unless one is a pantheist. Not everyone is pantheistic. Jews, Christians and Muslims certainly are not.



Oh, so you must know thi God fellow personally then? Does he come by and crash at your pad for mad smoke sessions? No... you don't and he doesn't.

How can you say what god is and what god is not? God is an idea, an intangible concept that exists in our minds. Each man has his own idea of god. Your idea is not the only idea and is deffinitely not provable in any fashion. If one believes that all of existence is God and that by having fun one is allowing God to enjoy these experiences, then it is no less correct than your assupmtion that god is beyond our frame of existence.


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Edited by jux (01/04/05 02:59 PM)

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3579275 -

It is possible to live one's life in devotion to the spirit where every act is sacred. Our lives that we were given are sacred so why should not the living of that life. One must only give everything due consideration and respect. If this is done the profane can often be transformed into the sacred. Taking joy in life is the single most sacred act one can undertake...all else will flow from this. This statement goes deeper than you suppose so think it out before posting a response...if anyone is inclined to respond, that is.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3579992 -

What is with the duality between "spirituality" and life? It's a whole lotta bullshit if you ask me. Categorizing things as spiritual and not spiritual is fucked up, but then so is the whole concept of duality and thats the fundamental concept of western civilization.

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3580074 -

People may use entheogens as they wish. All drugs are for alterations on consciousness. Over time humans have been trying to alter their consciousness, because the crystal-clear seems so utilitarian. Most don't reach complete enlightenment totally through their given perception & are therefore dissatisfied. I personally use entheogens for both reasons, perceptual change & enlightenment. There's nothing like the thought flow that can be given from a few grams of mushrooms. Feeling like you've solved it all. On the flip side, it's nice just to see the artwork of the mind form fractals in your eye lids.
It's all about flying; it's just depends on a person's wingspan...how high (perfect word, eh?) you wanna go.
:hypno: :hypno: :hypno: :eyeball: :hypno: :hypno: :hypno:


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mmmm, spacecake

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: jux]
    #3581107 -

Whatever GOD is, GOD is not merely an idea. GOD may be responsible for the Idea of GOD to occur to human intellect, as St. Anselm to interestingly argued, but the very metaphysical infrastructure of existence is not merely an idea.

I am partaking of a 'GOD-notion' that is held by all the high religions. It did not originate with me, and indeed, the utter transcendence of GOD HAS been my experience at the most profound moments of my life. Of course, we are all free to maintain any idiosyncratic belief, but the more fine-tuned one's psyche becomes through one's ardent practice, the more easily can one throw out silly ideas about Deity. I don't care what you worship, unless you're on some mission in life that threatens my well-being, and frankly, I don't know the limits of what you believe you're justified in doing - for 'GOD.' Your idiosyncratic ideas of "fun" might be like others before you who climb a tower with a rifle. What you describe does not resemble any religious tenet that I have ever come upon. GOD isn't about your fun, friend.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3581207 -

God is about whatever I want God to be about as God resides in my mind.
If I want god to be about love, then God is about love. If I want God to be about vengance, then God is about vengance. If I want God to be about fun, then God is about fun.

Show me that God is more than an idea.

It is arrogance to tell me what god is and what god is not. Just because "higher religions" say one thing does not make it the truth.

Does the fact that no organized religions support my ideas make them any less true? I dare to say 'no.'


"Your idiosyncratic ideas of "fun" might be like others before you who climb a tower with a rifle."
That is not a very apt comparison at all.


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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: jux]
    #3581417 -

as to the original question.
i say use whatever you want for whatever purpose you want, as long as you are the only victim.
Just be prepared to accept what you get.
this is probably better theory then practice for a lot of people....

so basically JUX, you are saying god is about ones own perception of things? every ones perception effects their circle of friends, associates, family, and vice-versa.
so basically god is a hive mind made up of millions or billions of perceptions constantly influencing each other. so what god is is a constant evolution of popular thoughts and ideals???????
just a random thought.

*EVOLVE*

Edited by clone (01/04/05 08:11 PM)

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3581584 -

Entheogens can be used to get maximum knowledge and happiness from the trip, but they don't need to be. It can just be a way to alter your mind, or "get high," as it is classily referred to as today. Trying to put your expectations on entheogens and drugs that they should only be used for spiritual and religious purposes only gets your ego more involved in muddling your opinion of the nature of drugs.

And who knows, maybe some kid trying to "get high" on LSD will feel the encompassing love and unity of the universe, even without having a spiritual purpose before taking it. With psychedelics, it's often best for me to just let the path wind under my feet, as I know I cannot change it by following it.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3581616 -

Duality exists where people wish to compromise their integrity...so separation of life and spirit are necessary for them to look in the mirror each day. In reality there is no duality.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: jux]
    #3581686 -

No one can show you anything. You must first be able to see more than yourself.

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3582509 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
No one can show you anything. You must first be able to see more than yourself.


*clap* *clap* *clap*
My feelings exactly. Except that when I was a child I believed in this fantasy called god. I believed in an eternal soul. But then I slowly started to look beyond myself. I realized that I was not greater than the sum of my parts. I was a mobile eco-system with an advanced intellect. Nothing more, nothing less. I looked around and I saw something far more true than any idea religion had ever given me. I saw that I am but one more transient system lost adrift a sea of transient systems, with no benevolent creator caring for me. I saw that I was temporary and of this plane of existence.

I congradulate you, however, on completely ignoring my assertion that you are not the ultimate authority on what god can and cannot be.


@ Clone

I do not believe in a god. However, I see no reason that God cannot be the universal consciousness of all of space and time. It seems just as likely to me that god is the universe as god being external to the universe.


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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3583052 -

Psychedelic drugs carry some relatively small but very real risks.

Psychologically in the perfectly healthy user it brings about prolonged states of unusual consciousness which are impossible to relate to your average Joe. Psychedelics are very taboo.

For most people the thought od someone taking heroin and "feeling damn good'n'lazy" or snorting speed and be "king of the woooorrrldd!" is very recognisable whereas the thought of someone taking LSD "that makes people crazy and jump off of rooftops flapping their arms" is quite weird. People got the idea that LSD will turn you into a nutjob and if you told of your adventures they will readily decide some screws have come loose upstairs.

A high that is percieved as potentially threatening holds less potential for self-identification then a hard-drug that'll bite you if you're into gluttony.

"Homer: what did you do last weekend?"
"Well, Ned.. I popped me a pill or two and just lay on the couch dreaming the hours away. Feels like Hawaii man, you just gotta be careful with it."
"Uh.. ok..."

"Homer: what did you do last weekend?"
"I took this toke of DMT and there I was man: Floating in space with the colors and the music, and those naughty little Elves that always come by when I do that, they undid my fly man, and they took turns waxing me off! I swear to God! And.. and.. God Himself told me His plans for the world and.. it is SO GREAT! It was.. the most beautiful voice I ever heard. He means so well for us. I still feel His presence.. C'mon, you gotta try! The Holy Truth is IN THERE!!"
*Ned backs away to nearest exit*

So even if you are perfectly healthy and have no adverse effects it will be an experience that tends to alienate you from the consensus realm of the Human Experience.

But many users develop alterations of the visual field, unsuspected emotional bursts (overreacting), lisps, eye coordination trouble, paresthesias and sometimes evenb flashbacks after prolonged use and most people get a more dynamic psyche which is positive if you work at your issues but detrimental if you want to lead a passive life and evade it's issues.

Evading life's issues is your Godgiven right and by no means wrong or less moral, but you WILL get into crises sooner or later if you combine an evasive life strategy with a highly confrontational drug.

Then there are the people who perhaps never remotely suspected they had underlying psychological disorders, who find their personality structures blasted apart by the trip and their lives left in ruins.

So Psychedelics carry small but very serious risks. If you get real and accept the present risk of LSD being potentially very bad for you but nontheless decide to proceed it matters not whether your motives are spiritual or mundane.

I from a mental health point of view much rather see some cool teenager gobble a ten-strip of LSD under reasonable circumstances "to get fucked in the head" then having a poorly adjusted, vague, detached spiritual adult who has trouble maintaining concensus reality and conversation take a single hit of LSD in the "certainty" he will be embraced by the four loving arms of Shiva and have Divine revelations unfold with a Mission just for him.

I myself take LSD primarily for personal growth, and often am graced by spiritual growth and "having a totally rad kickass time" as side effects.

My target is personal growth, because that will certainly be an issue, I relly hope for spiritual advancement but if I instead have "a totally rad kickass time" i will make due with that :wink:

Usually the growth happens for the bulk of the trip and the coming-down has the most cheerful atmosphere.


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: jux]
    #3583057 -

I have some authority, I am not an "ultimate authority." Interesting however that you should use the word "ultimate," if you follow the implications of the word, I would be deriving authority from the "Ultimate," the Summum Bonum, the Absolute, GOD. I am however, according to my faith, informed by a Sacred Consciousness, to wit, the Holy Spirit. Sorry that we can't share that experience.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: runnerup]
    #3583064 -

all things are spiritual - life is a journey through spirit.

call things what you might, but they all need to be - and all are truth and the way of One

Each story in the masterpiece that is All is beautiful and embodies what must be embodied.

unfolding

No rules

let's roll

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3583799 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
I have some authority, I am not an "ultimate authority." Interesting however that you should use the word "ultimate," if you follow the implications of the word, I would be deriving authority from the "Ultimate," the Summum Bonum, the Absolute, GOD. I am however, according to my faith, informed by a Sacred Consciousness, to wit, the Holy Spirit. Sorry that we can't share that experience.


No man has any authority on what God can and cannot be. Within your own faith you may be considered an authority, but in the real world there are no ways to verify the nature of God. Hence, I object to you telling others what God can and cannot be. All I want is for you to concede that there is as much proof that God is not of this universe as God is the universe. And by as much proof, I mean there is none for either. I'm not telling you your faith is wrong, I'm not telling you someone else's is right. What I'm saying is that it is arrogance to proclaim to know the truth and tell others that they have it wrong because they disagree with your notion of God. And that is what you have done. You have told other members what god may and may not be for them. What authority do you have to decide for others what god is to them?


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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: jux]
    #3584857 -

As I said originally, you are free to believe whatever you want. It is your profession of pantheism that I countered with panentheism. You are confusing issues if you think this little dialogue is a 'proof-of-GOD's existence debate.'

I will concede nothing to you since you choose to deify the universe, and clearly have no working definition of the English word 'GOD,' which is defined variously, but always designates Ultimate Reality which is Transcendental, NOT the empirical universe. Hey...worship fire hydrants if you want, but don't bother me by debating a theological point based on your idiosyncratic understanding of things. Affirmation of what GOD is, is called Cataphatic mysticism, what GOD is not is called Apophatic mysticism. There are a lot of People of the Book, namely, Jews, Christians and Muslims who are collectively in disagreement with you, so your challenge is with all of them since their beginnings, not with me. I hope you can see that.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3586988 -

Ok. This is exactly what I was afraid of. You didn't read my posts thoroughly. Otherwise you would see me mention at least once in this thread that I do not believe in a god. Hence, I do not deify the universe. However, I see no reason that God cannot be the universe.

And it is not I who has a problem with my understanding of English. I looked up god in the dictionary. This is what it told me:

"A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people."

Cannot the universe be considered a being of supernatural powers and attributes? Time, space, and gravity are all supernatural attributes in my mind. And is not the universe transcendental? I know of nothing more superior to man than the universe itself. What is more ultimate a reality than the universe we reside in? So, the universe is supernatural. The universe is transcendental. The universe is the ultimate reality. It, therefore, not only satisfies every requirement that the dictionary gave me, but also every requirement you gave to me.

My challenge resides not with others but yourself. I don't care if every person on this earth save one man believes god is not of this universe. Just because an idea is accepted does not make it true. And with an idea as unprovable as God, you cannot tell others what God cannot be, because it is unverifiable.

Quote:
What I'm saying is that it is arrogance to proclaim to know the truth and tell others that they have it wrong because they disagree with your notion of God. And that is what you have done. You have told other members what god may and may not be for them. What authority do you have to decide for others what god is to them?


That is my point, plain and simple. I do not care if you believe in what you believe. My only concern is with the fact that you act to limit what others may think of God because you believe you have it correct and that anyone who holds a different opinion on what God can be is wrong.

If you cannot see that, then I am done with this discussion.


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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: jux]
    #3587823 -

"Time, space, and gravity are all supernatural attributes in my mind."

I rest my case. End of discussion.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3588490 -

You are excellent at making meaningless responses that add nothing to the conversation.

But, for the sake of helping you I will explain something deep and insightful. Wait, I mean simple and obvious


First, I shall give you two definitions of the word supernatural from the dictionary (Why do I always have to refer people to the dictionary?)
"# Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
# Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous."

Ok, let us assume your definition of god is correct. He is not of this universe. He must create the universe. He creates time, space, and gravity. Because there were no natural forces before the start of the universe, these forces would be supernatural. Also, because these forces are caused by god, they may be seen as divine and miraculous.

So, whether god is external to the universe or the universe itself, the forces that build our universe may be seen as supernatural.

You did not rest your case, good sir. In fact, you've done nothing but avoid the case at hand.


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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3589378 -

Hmm, I like how you put that. I havn't thought about it in those terms before, but that definitly is at least an aspect of the problem of duality. Dualism is a social construct that has been conditioned into Civilized thought since the beginning of civilization as far as I'm concerned, however the fact that so many people don't recognize it's falseness is likely, at least in part, due to thier willingness to compromise thier basic integrity. It's easier to just believe in the extremely oppressive and pathological philosophy of ones culture, rather than having to struggle against the grain and pay attention to ones own instincts.

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3591007 -

Some think it is easier to ask forgiveness than just walk the path with honest intent...not looking back.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: should Entheogens only be used for spiritual use? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3595290 -

Markos and Jux, You both seem to be discussing the same thing in my mind, both have insight on what GOD is. (Don't ask me why i capitalized it) Seems to me both of your visions are the same. The universe as a whole is my definition of god. We are a part of god and nothing can exist outside the realms of god. In a sense the whole thing. So basically I think you are talking about the same thing.

Markos I do get a kick out of the fact that you take into pride as if you were the one that pointed him to God. But which in no way you did. So don't try to act or write as if you did.

Peace,
Droz

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