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 spudamore
Stranger
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 1,460
Loc: Australia
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 Re: Lacking spiritual direction  [Re: Kerr]
#4307716 - 06/17/05 01:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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one last thing don't listen to any of us, or our advice. so you can choose to accept or reject this statement if you like. one does not need to be directed by others if you listen to yourself and what you feel, you will be on your path. never accept something that you have not experienced, read, or seems like the majority beleifs.
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suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem
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 MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida 
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Lacking spiritual direction [Re: fireworks_god]
#4308486 - 06/17/05 06:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Who is this Wotan? "He is the god of storm and frenzy, the unleasher of passions and the lust of battle; moreover he is a superlative magician and artist in illusion who is versed in all secrets of an occult nature." (3) "Wotan disappeared when his oaks fell and appeared again when the Christian God proved too weak to save Christendom from fratricidal slaughter." (4) "I venture the heretical suggestion that the unfathomable depths of Wotan's character explain more of National Socialism than" (5) all economic, political and psychological factors put together.
"[T]he gods are without doubt personifications of psychic forces..." (6) And when one is possessed by such a god there is not much one can do about it and in the case of Wotan we're talking about "a fundamental attribute of the German psyche." (7)
http://www.meta-religion.com/Psychiatry/Analytical_psychology/jungs_shadow.htm
They are not equivalent archetypes, the Odin-Wotan complex and Christ. The former belongs to a pantheon and one can see the 'bleeding' of attibutes from Thor (which is equivalent to Mars-Ares, Indra and other warrior gods). There are similarities with 'hanging on a [world] tree,' which is a NT reference to the cross of Christ, but the Odin-Wotan archetype doesn't serve the same purpose of Wholeness.
I have German roots, my name Mark (actually Marc, thus Marcus) derives from the Roman god Mars. The word martial derives from Mars (I used to be into Judo and Jujitsu). I was a 'hawk' before I was a 'dove' - Pagan vs. Christian, and I understand the archetype, but it doesn't embody the 'Central' archetype through which Wholeness is realized, and this is important to understand for one's personal development.
Peace.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 2 months, 10 days
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Personally, I do not favor Jung's analysis of the Odin archetype at all, as I see it as being plauged with misunderstanding and inaccuracies on Jung's part. I have not extensively studied into Jung and what he has spoke of Odin, and I am not presently capable of refuting his analysis of the Odin archetype, but I strongly urge you to check out the book by Ralph Metzner (no less  ), The Well Of Rememberance.
As soon as I straighten out my account at the library, I will pick up the book and directly quote from it. 
I wasn't placing Odin as an equivalent archetype to that of Jesus, however, I personally find more similarities betwen myself and Odin than I do with Christ, as I understand them to be.
I see Odin as a shaman, as someone who sacrifices himself for a true understanding of reality, etc. etc. etc. I need to obtain that book again.
 
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Lacking spiritual direction [Re: fireworks_god]
#4310322 - 06/18/05 07:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes,please do, I would like to hear more. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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The_Walrus
Stranger
Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 79
Loc: Cambridge, Britain
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Re: Lacking spiritual direction [Re: fireworks_god]
#4310324 - 06/18/05 07:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I believe hallucinogens that induce altered states of consciousness help one to come to terms with concepts such as mortality and appreciate the 'bigger picture'. It is all well and good to say that you are one individual out of billions that have lived on the earth, and that your lifespan is but an eyeblink compared to the age of the universe, and basically how huge the world and the universe really is, but to actually feel it, experience it and comprehend it is another question alltogether. It is pretty certain that everything you hold true and constant, for example the city of Cambridge where I have lived all my life, that in as little as a hundred years time this area could be changed beyond recognisability, it might be underwater if global warming goes ahead as the city is below water level, and that some time in the future the human race will either cease to exist or change beyond recognition.
It is true that we are made of trillions upon trillions of atoms of elements which were made via nuclear fusion in stars billions of years ago from hydrogen. Big concepts like that transcend the ordinary experiences we have every day and hallucinogens give one an idea that these everyday experiences what we constitute as reality or common sense is just one way in which to look at the world, that as far as the universe is concerned we are just insignificant and basically arrogant in the way we try to impose our assumptions about nature based on our limited experiences on the universe. I guess the way mushrooms help you to so called 'think outside of the box', look at things from different perspectives and frames of reference, and most of all the feelings of empathy are greatly enchanced. I believe all these are absolutely necessary for keeping a full spiritual perspective, enlightenment is not an ends, it is a journey, a state of mind. It doesn't matter how you structure your spirituality, be it through religion, philosophy, art, science or simply being, they are simply feeling different parts of the elephant, superficially they are different but underneath they are all trying to express and/or understand/make sense of the continuous experience that is life. Science tries to understand the external world, art deals with the internal world, religion and philosophy try to combine both, but ultimately they are all very good. It is just up to the individual really to make sense of things in their own way and 'follow their own path' I guess.
Me for example, I have no rituals, I just like to take time out from all the stresses and hassles of modern life, clear my mind and free it to from distraction so I can think and reflect on whatever comes to me really, don't really have to think either, being in perfect silence and calm itself gives one a sense of continuity, clarity and inner peace. I try to do this whenever I can really, I also like to read books to find out about the rest of the world and how it has come to be how it is and the different perspectives from which it can be interpreted, like religious texts such as the Hindu Scriptures, popular science books such as 'the elegant universe'. Reading is a very rewarding passtime really...
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'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Lacking spiritual direction [Re: fireworks_god]
#4310473 - 06/18/05 09:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think that I will look for Metzner's book, thanks. I have never actually read the guy whose name appears on the classic The Psychedelic Experience
(he said he actually kept house when Leary and Alpert wrote it).
Anyway, no intention to tread on what seems meaningful to you. I appreciate anyone who questions authority - the authority of Jung takes particular chutzpa to question Remember that at the time, propagandists were using Teutonic mythology in such a way as to portray Hitler as Wotan, and Hitler himself was completely enamored of Wagnerian mythic operatic themes which colored his plan for world conquest. There was also a strong magical theme with the Nazi inner circle deriving from rune magic, the acquisition of 'The Spear of Destiny' and other anti-Christian elements. One might even say that Hitler's drug involvement with amphetamines constituted a shamanic path through psychosis because of his fear-drenched visionary experiences of the 'Ubermensch.' Cautionary statements about the archetype in question is balanced by other insensitive remarks that, while logical, strike many people as plain antisemitism.
I found a neat site that you might dig: http://www.louisville.edu/~rnstcl01/R-World-tree.html 
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 2 months, 10 days
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Remember that at the time, propagandists were using Teutonic mythology in such a way as to portray Hitler as Wotan, and Hitler himself was completely enamored of Wagnerian mythic operatic themes which colored his plan for world conquest. There was also a strong magical theme with the Nazi inner circle deriving from rune magic, the acquisition of 'The Spear of Destiny' and other anti-Christian elements. One might even say that Hitler's drug involvement with amphetamines constituted a shamanic path through psychosis because of his fear-drenched visionary experiences of the 'Ubermensch.'
I understand this; however, my point is that, while these Nazi practices were influenced by Odin and the subsequent mythology related to him, I feel that their interpretation and utilization of this mythology regarding Odin were incorrect in revealing the true nature of the archetype complex Odin. Essentially, they did not understand and instead revealed a hideous montrosity of an archetype - perhaps they were pulling in the energy of Jotunheim and not of Vanir.... 
Perhaps it is even possible that Hitler was a manifestation of Loki, representing himself as Odin in such a trademark manner. 
I don't believe that Jung, based on the parts of his assessment of Odin that I have read, understood the Odin archetype for what it was and still is. I feel that Metzner does a far better job of explaining how this is than I ever could at this point, I'm just not experienced enough in this area to really know more than half of what I'm talking about. 
Quote:
Cautionary statements about the archetype in question is balanced by other insensitive remarks that, while logical, strike many people as plain antisemitism.
Regardless of how strucken many people might be that some of my remarks bare traces of antisemtism, I do not see any implied meanings that verify this.
Quote:
I found a neat site that you might dig: http://www.louisville.edu/~rnstcl01/R-World-tree.html
Tusen takk, I'll enjoy researching into this site.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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