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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Ignoring Reality in Iraq
    #3500869 - 12/15/04 12:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ignoring Reality in Iraq
by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

A recent study by the Pentagon?s Defense Science Task Force on Strategic Communications concluded that in the struggle for hearts and minds in Iraq, ?American efforts have not only failed, they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended.? This Pentagon report flatly states that our war in Iraq actually has elevated support for radical Islamists. It goes on to conclude that our active intervention in the Middle East as a whole has greatly diminished our reputation in the region, and strengthened support for radical groups. This is similar to what the CIA predicted in an October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate, before the invasion took place.

Then, earlier this month we learned that the CIA station chief in Baghdad sent a cable back to the US warning that the situation in Iraq is deteriorating, and not expected to improve any time soon. Other CIA experts also warn that the security situation in Iraq is likely to get even worse in the future. These reports are utterly ignored by the administration.

These recent reports are not the product of some radical antiwar organization. They represent the US government?s own assessment of our ?progress? in Iraq after two and a half years and the loss of thousands of lives. We are alienating the Islamic world in our oxymoronic quest to impose democracy in Iraq.

This demonstrates once again the folly of nation building, which is something candidate Bush wisely rejected before the 2000 election. The worsening situation in Iraq also reminds us that going to war without a congressional declaration, as the Constitution requires, leads us into protracted quagmires over and over again.

The reality is that current-day Iraq contains three distinct groups of people who have been at odds with each other for generations. Pundits and politicians tell us that a civil war will erupt if the US military departs. Yet our insistence that Iraq remain one indivisible nation actually creates the conditions for civil war. Instead of an artificial, forced, nationalist unity between the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds, we should allow each group to seek self-government and choose voluntarily whether they wish to associate with a central government. We cannot impose democracy in Iraq any more than we can erase hundreds of years of Iraqi history.

Even opponents of the war now argue that we must occupy Iraq indefinitely until a democratic government takes hold, no matter what the costs. No attempt is made by either side to explain exactly why it is the duty of American soldiers to die for the benefit of Iraq or any other foreign country. No reason is given why American taxpayers must pay billions of dollars to build infrastructure in Iraq. We are expected to accept the interventionist approach without question, as though no other options exist. This blanket acceptance of foreign meddling and foreign aid may be the current Republican policy, but it is not a conservative policy by any means.

Non-interventionism was the foreign policy ideal of the Founding Fathers, an ideal that is ignored by both political parties today. Those who support political and military intervention in Iraq and elsewhere should have the integrity to admit that their views conflict with the principles of our nation?s founding. It?s easy to repeat the tired clich? that ?times have changed since the Constitution was written? ? in fact, that?s an argument the left has used for decades to justify an unconstitutional welfare state. Yet if we accept this argument, what other principles from the founding era should we discard? Should we reject federalism? Habeas corpus? How about the Second Amendment? The principle of limited government enshrined in the Constitution ? limited government in both domestic and foreign affairs ? has not changed over time. What has changed is our willingness to ignore that principle.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleDNKYD
Turtle!

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 12,326
Re: Ignoring Reality in Iraq [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3500924 - 12/15/04 12:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Very good article which makes good, valid points. Hopefully the majority of the population will begin to realize the futility of our efforts in Iraq.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Ignoring Reality in Iraq [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3500938 - 12/15/04 12:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

America needs more Ron Pauls.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Ignoring Reality in Iraq [Re: silversoul7]
    #3500962 - 12/15/04 12:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Reality is always a matter of preference, there are so many to choose from. I think Mr. Paul is wrong. The war is only a waste if we lose, which is exactly what he is proposing we do. Unless we want Zarqawi to have his own country in Iraq, failure is not an option. Sometimes the odds are against you, but being pessimistic and defeatist doesn't help. Well, it helps the enemy anyway, they don't have to work as hard.



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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleDNKYD
Turtle!

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 12,326
Re: Ignoring Reality in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3500970 - 12/15/04 12:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

We lost the moment we carried out an illegal war.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Ignoring Reality in Iraq [Re: DNKYD]
    #3500978 - 12/15/04 12:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Hmm, as I recall we didn't 'lose' in Kosovo and by your defintion that war was also illegal.
That is an extremely weak statement.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Ignoring Reality in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3501001 - 12/15/04 12:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Shit...looks like the Germans have Europe. I guess we'd better cut our losses...


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Ignoring Reality in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3501016 - 12/15/04 12:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Shit...looks like the Germans have Europe. I guess we'd better cut our losses...



I believe it was the Germans carrying out the illegal war in that case. And it just so happens that the Germans declared war on us.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDNKYD
Turtle!

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 12,326
Re: Ignoring Reality in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3501070 - 12/15/04 12:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So why did we invade Iraq and overthrow Saddam?

If you're going to say he was murdering thousands of innocent people, don't bother. We were perfectly fine with him killing thousands of innocent Kurds when we supplied him with chemical weapons.

WMD? Obviously a lie. We have still found none, and there have even been allegations of the CIA firing an employee because he refused to fake documents claiming to have found them.

And what about the forged documents claiming Iraq tried to purchase uranium from Niger?

Hmmmm. So we went to war with Iraq for nothing more than oil, and so Bush and his buddies could profit big time while our soldiers needlessly die in an completely assinine war?

Were my liberties being taken away, or even threatened by Saddam? Hell no. They were being taken away by the Bush administration's pet named Patriot Act.

So once again, I state, we lost the minute we invaded Iraq.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Ignoring Reality in Iraq [Re: DNKYD]
    #3501340 - 12/15/04 01:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

WMD? Obviously a lie. We have still found none

According to pinkie the WMD are in a swimming pool in Iraq  :grin:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Ignoring Reality in Iraq [Re: DNKYD]
    #3501486 - 12/15/04 01:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DNKYD said:
So why did we invade Iraq and overthrow Saddam?

If you're going to say he was murdering thousands of innocent people, don't bother. We were perfectly fine with him killing thousands of innocent Kurds when we supplied him with chemical weapons.

WMD? Obviously a lie. We have still found none, and there have even been allegations of the CIA firing an employee because he refused to fake documents claiming to have found them.

And what about the forged documents claiming Iraq tried to purchase uranium from Niger?

Hmmmm. So we went to war with Iraq for nothing more than oil, and so Bush and his buddies could profit big time while our soldiers needlessly die in an completely assinine war?

Were my liberties being taken away, or even threatened by Saddam? Hell no. They were being taken away by the Bush administration's pet named Patriot Act.

So once again, I state, we lost the minute we invaded Iraq.




1.First, nobody was 'fine' with Saddam Hussein killing kurds. We just had an approach Ron Paul style approach to despotism back then. Complaining about apathy towards tyranny and murder in the 80s doesn't work when you are siding with those who commit it today and proposing a similarly unethical policy.

2.If you really think Bush lied about the WMDs you should seek remedial education. It makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER to tell a lie when you know it will quickly found out and make you look like an ass. Seriously, nobody is that stupid.

3.The forged documents about Iraq and Niger? As it turns out that claim was pretty legitmate and it was Joseph Wilson who was the liar.

4.Where is your proof that Bush's "buddies" (names please) are somehow a motivation to invade Iraq? This makes no sense. "Sure, I'll drag the nation into a quagmire, embarass my administration and country, and risk electoral defeat so some freinds of mine can get larger stock options." Right. If you are going to make such an implausible yet cliche' statement you should be able to support it with some facts. So we went to Iraq to steal oil? Ok, so where the fuck is? It sure didn't get any cheaper at the pump.

I ask you to consider the consequences here: Suppose we said to the people of Iraq "You know we blew up your whole country, and we said we would rebuild it and give you democracy, but we've changed our mind. Have fun with a wrecked country, good luck fighting off terrorists on your own." and then the President said to the American people "Yeah, we fucked up. We wasted losts of money, every soldier died in vein, and now we are going to give up and let Iraq become a haven for our enemies. Sorry to all those who lost limbs or gave their lives for peace in Iraq because we don't feel like going through the trouble anymore. Sucks to be you."

What you are proposing is both untenable and horrendously unethical. It would be the worst possible way to tell the people in Iraq and our veterans to fuck off because we are too weak willed and amoral to make good on our promises.

Not only that, but it is in nobodies interest to have Al Qaeda running Iraq. Seriously, handing terrorist control: bad idea with long term consequences.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 11 days
Re: Ignoring Reality in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3502625 - 12/15/04 08:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Complaining about apathy towards tyranny and murder in the 80s doesn't work when you are siding with those who commit it today and proposing a similarly unethical policy.





Is it not a double standard that the US ignores human rights abuses in countries such as Krygztan which tow the US line?

The whole humans rights issue re: Afghanistan and Iraq is a complete crock of shit. It is merely a smoke screen for the real purposes of the invasions. O-I-L and control of the means to move it.

Quote:

If you really think Bush lied about the WMDs you should seek remedial education.




So Bush didnt lie but somebody in HIS administration definitely did. Bush is probabaly kept in the dark to make his red neck rants seem all the more convincing to the population. For gods sake the main is a moron and a puppet and half of America voted for him...For shame.

Quote:

The forged documents about Iraq and Niger? As it turns out that claim was pretty legitmate and it was Joseph Wilson who was the liar




Source?

Quote:

Where is your proof that Bush's "buddies" (names please) are somehow a motivation to invade Iraq?




If you really need to ask such an obvious question as this I must seriously question whether you have any knowledge of your country, its economy and the men who run it.

Edit: spelling


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Edited by GazzBut (12/15/04 08:29 AM)


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 5 years, 17 days
Re: Ignoring Reality in Iraq [Re: GazzBut]
    #3502895 - 12/15/04 11:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think that the solution is to just pick up and leave now. It won't be long before we have elections. You gotta give those a chance. I like Ron Paul, but I don't think that cutting and running is a viable alternative. Maybe we shouldn't get into these things. They are too damned expensive. But now that we are waist high in shit we have to wade through the muck.


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Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleHendostan
Male

Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 4,441
Re: Ignoring Reality in Iraq [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3503251 - 12/15/04 01:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I ask you to consider the consequences here: Suppose we said to the people of Iraq "You know we blew up your whole country, and we said we would rebuild it and give you democracy, but we've changed our mind. Have fun with a wrecked country, good luck fighting off terrorists on your own." and then the President said to the American people "Yeah, we fucked up. We wasted losts of money, every soldier died in vein, and now we are going to give up and let Iraq become a haven for our enemies. Sorry to all those who lost limbs or gave their lives for peace in Iraq because we don't feel like going through the trouble anymore. Sucks to be you."




you are correct here. i don't support us being there, i didn't support us going there in the first place, and i have SERIOUS questions as to the administrations motivation and strategies with this war..but what's done is done. the reality is that we are there now and we can't leave until we stabalize things somehow. leaving now does absolutely no good for us, iraq, or the world. we've been plunged into a big fucking mess and we have no choice but to stay until it's straightened out.


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