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OfflineZahid
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Registered: 01/21/02
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2055174 - 10/30/03 06:41 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Not a very precise way of thinking. Fundamentalist Muslims use similiar logic when carrying out 'martyrdom' attacks: 'We cannot seperate the infidel who supports the Zionist Entity from the innocent people who mix with him. Our attack is against those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle.*' (quoted by a French-Palestinian man who later wrote about the experience of extremism in the occupied territories). Suicide bombers rarely intentionally target groups of old people/children/women directly - when those groups of people do die, it is the result of fanatical reasoning similiar to that of war mongers who support such primitive invasions of other countries.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Zahid]
    #2055437 - 10/30/03 07:56 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Not a very precise way of thinking. Fundamentalist Muslims use similiar logic when carrying out 'martyrdom' attacks: 'We cannot seperate the infidel who supports the Zionist Entity from the innocent people who mix with him. Our attack is against those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle.*' (quoted by a French-Palestinian man who later wrote about the experience of extremism in the occupied territories).



A good point.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlineorizon
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Registered: 08/22/03
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Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2055825 - 10/30/03 09:57 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

That is a good point...Nevertheless, innocent civilians caught in the line of fire is still much different than civilians intentionally murdered. Not that one should be mourned more than the other, just that one is a unfortunate accident while the other clearly is not. Kind of like comparing first degree murder to manslaughter....they are both wrong but not equally wrong. The US effort in Bagdad is being conducted in a fashion which is doing everything possible too keep civilians out of the line of fire. Thats why we are doing this form of battle called "Urban warfare" That palestenian suicide bomber conducts a much more barbaric fashion of trying to eliminate his enemies. If America wanted to rage battle in a way similar to a suicide bomber (measured up due to US army might), then we would just go in and carpet bomb the whole city of bagdad, taking out our enemies, and anybody else who happens to be hanging around. That would be sinical. Im quoting this guy here: Suicide bombers rarely intentionally target groups of old people/children/women directly. Rarely!!!!! American forces NEVER intentionally target groups of old people children woman or any civilan for that matter directly. All this guy is saying is that he targets his oppenents in the places that do the most damage..... whether or not woman and children are killed is inmaterial to him. I dont think US forces should be at all compared to the views of this guy. No more Iraqi forces exist as a controlled unit anymore. Its basically just the remnants of the army hiding out and striking when the times right. The enemy has clearly taken advantage of United States attemps to do the best they can to not hit civilians. Then when some of these guys masquerading as civilans are hit, they can easily be identified as a innocent citizen. Saying they are distingusing the two with a "far more rigorous definition of civilian" does not answer my question to its desired extent. Who's making the decisions first of all and precisley what methods are used to distingusish a civilan from a soldier?....well not a soldier....a hostile anti-American unit.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2055840 - 10/30/03 10:02 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Funny how you get worked up over ACCIDENTAL collateral deaths

Nah, you swallow the "collateral damage" nonsense if you want to, I'm afraid I don't. An accidental death is someone tripping off the kerb in front of a moving car. When you are dropping tons of high explosive on a city we're a little beyond "accidental death".


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/13/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Zahid]
    #2056082 - 10/30/03 11:12 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Karma is a bitch and we keep giving her more wrath. When she bites back WTC is going to look like a molehill. When, not if, that happens... all of these callous assholes will know more about how it feels to be an iraqi then any article or number could ever begin to tell them. Until then, I pray for justice to be returned and I pray for those who never deserved this injustice in the name of something their country had not a fucking bit of involvement in, no matter how much faux news and faux presidents say they did.



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/30/01
Posts: 34,246
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Xlea321]
    #2056302 - 10/30/03 12:51 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Funny how you get worked up over ACCIDENTAL collateral deaths

Nah, you swallow the "collateral damage" nonsense if you want to, I'm afraid I don't. An accidental death is someone tripping off the kerb in front of a moving car. When you are dropping tons of high explosive on a city we're a little beyond "accidental death".




Redefining again? What a surprise.

I have not attempted to define collateral damage, or death in a war zone as an accidental death and I can't for the life of me figure out why you would attempt to. Oh wait... yes I can..

If you wish to compare deliberate murders of civilians with inadvertent deaths of civilians, you feel free.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2056444 - 10/30/03 03:52 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

If you wish to compare deliberate murders of civilians with inadvertent deaths of civilians, you feel free.

Perhaps because there's nothing "inadvertent" about dropping high explosives on a city.

Drop high explosives on a city, innocent people die. It really is that simple.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/18/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Xlea321]
    #2056666 - 10/30/03 06:12 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Exactly.

They (the US administration) knew that innocent civilians would die as a result of the bombs they were dropping.

If they knew they would be killing civilians, how was it an accident?

If A cop opened fire on a criminal in a CROWDED room of innocents and started wounding and killing a bunch of those innocents just go get to the bad guy...well you can imagine the kind of trouble that cop would get into.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
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Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 1,047
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: trendal]
    #2056749 - 10/30/03 06:58 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting comparison but flawed
Warzone > Crowded Room
Most can differentiate between the two....

Civilians were not targeted.
As a good friend of mine would say It's as simple as that
and Btw

Learyfan Knew



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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/18/01
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2056796 - 10/30/03 07:28 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Heh, I did not mean to make a direct comparrison.

But personally I do not agree with the excuse of a "warzone" in the deaths of innocent civilians. I understand that civilian death is inevitable in war, but I don't see a need to try and justify it.

Further, I would hold this true for any war, not just the recent Iraqi "Liberation" war which if you haven't noticed was an entirely new form of warfare.

What occured was a sickening demonstration of force. If anyone can't understand that...you must be blind. Do you know why there were significantly less Iraqi Armed Forces killed in this war than the Gulf War? Because there were hardly any left and most who were left were young, undertrained, and ready to desert at the first chance. And the American Military rode in with their cruise missiles, tanks, Bradley Fighting Vehicles, and fleet of ultra-sophistocated attack jets and bombers.

To remove a few men from power.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: trendal]
    #2056832 - 10/30/03 07:44 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Noted. However, I dont think anyone, myself included, was trying to justify the death of innocent civilians. If that is at all possible.

As for your other comments and in an attempt to link them to the topic of the thread. Do you believe the coaltion's "sickening demonstration of force" was a negative contributory factor to the number of civilian deaths?

Quote:

Further, I would hold this true for any[i/] war




Btw, it is good to see you do not suffer from selective anti-war syndrome....


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/18/01
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2056903 - 10/30/03 08:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Do you believe the coaltion's "sickening demonstration of force" was a negative contributory factor to the number of civilian deaths?

Yes, very much so. I think the US has a lot more power in killing individuals or small groups of people than they let on. They quite likely could have taken out Saddam without dropping the number of bombs they did.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2057895 - 10/31/03 01:29 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe if Saddam didn't hide his troops in civilian centers, and HAmas didn't build bombs in Mosques, this wouldn't be such a problem, anywhere in teh Arab world?


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2057904 - 10/31/03 01:31 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I'm sure that the same people that think that the US "deserved" 9/11 are going to be beating their chests over these four thousand. How odd.


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/10/03
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2057916 - 10/31/03 01:33 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

i'd also like to note that the "Project on Defence Alternatives" webpage is filled with .pdf after .pdf downing the president, powell, and the entire war effort, while offering no "alternatives". How objective!


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Offlined33p
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Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2058122 - 10/31/03 02:32 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Karma is a bitch and we keep giving her more wrath. When she bites back WTC is going to look like a molehill. When, not if, that happens... all of these callous assholes will know more about how it feels to be an iraqi then any article or number could ever begin to tell them. Until then, I pray for justice to be returned and I pray for those who never deserved this injustice in the name of something their country had not a fucking bit of involvement in, no matter how much faux news and faux presidents say they did.






I dont want to put words in your mouth but you said you are praying for justice to be returned and you say 9/11 will look like a molehill.

So you are praying for the death of thousands of people. Wow good thinking. All i can say is i hope you are on the next hijacked bus or plane and see how much you want this "justice" returned.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2058153 - 10/31/03 02:45 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Karma is a bitch and we keep giving her more wrath. When she bites back WTC is going to look like a molehill. When, not if, that happens... all of these callous assholes will know more about how it feels to be an iraqi then any article or number could ever begin to tell them. Until then, I pray for justice to be returned and I pray for those who never deserved this injustice in the name of something their country had not a fucking bit of involvement in, no matter how much faux news and faux presidents say they did.







Why are American deaths always a "payback" for some American fault, and thus, deserved, while innocents dying other places is, you guessed it, still America's fault?


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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OfflineMisterKite
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: lysergic]
    #2058560 - 10/31/03 05:04 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

d33p- that is such a fucking distortion of what he said!!! He was praying for justice to be returned, so that the karmic pendulum wouldn't swing back with a nuclear punch that may just decimate one of the major U.S. cities.

lysergic- Psilokitten does not want American innocents to die!!!! What the fuck is wrong with you?? Read his post more carefully. He's saying they will die if America doesn't let go of its self righteous need to drop bombs on preschools and hospitals for the benefit of the very country who its destroying(wars seem a bit contradictory to me).


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"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: MisterKite]
    #2058592 - 10/31/03 05:12 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Well looking at her first sentence it does seem to support what you are saying. But she made it a little wordy and her placement of the sentences makes it somewhat unclear. Put that she wants justice to be returned right after saying america wrongfully attack iraqi made we confused i guess.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Registered: 02/13/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: d33p]
    #2058976 - 10/31/03 06:58 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I did, I pray that justice is done. I pray that people who kill innocent people recieve their due justice. Be them american or israeli, or pakistani, syrian, saudi arabian.. etc and so forth.

I acknowledge that killing innocent people is wrong and our government is killing innocent people. These people were not responsible for the wrongs perpetrated against our country on sept 11th, they were not responsible for the man we sponsored and put into power to repress them. No more then the people in the WTC were responsible for the foreign policy that led 19 people to hate us so much that is the only way they felt they could get the point across was to ram planes into the WTC. Two wrongs do not make a right.. they instead continue to spiral things out of control.

Instead of working to fix the problem, we have caused many many more. Hence why I said that 911 will look like a molehill compared to the mountain to come. I dont wish death and destruction on anyone. That doesnt mean that there isnt payback for deeds. That doesnt mean that I dont acknowledge that we get what we give. Unfortunately, the people that are responsible will not be the ones that die... just like the current situation.. innocent people will die. Innocent people will pay. I pray that justice finds those responsible and that no more innocent people on any "side" have to die.

My post didnt wish death on thousands of people. You chose to interpret it that way. You chose to see me only how you have your preconcieved mind set to see. Good luck with that.

If I did happen to be on that bus, or that plane, or in that building. It's not something I fear. My conscience is clean and this world is not something I cling to.


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