Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War
    #2052392 - 10/28/03 11:35 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Up to 15,000 people killed in invasion, claims thinktank

Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Wednesday October 29, 2003
The Guardian


As many as 15,000 Iraqis were killed in the first days of America's invasion and occupation of Iraq, a study produced by an independent US thinktank said yesterday. Up to 4,300 of the dead were civilian noncombatants.

The report, by Project on Defence Alternatives, a research institute from Cambridge, Massachussets, offers the most comprehensive account so far of how many Iraqis died.

The toll of Iraq's war dead covered by the report is limited to the early stages of the war, from March 19 when American tanks crossed the Kuwaiti border, to April 20, when US troops had consolidated their hold on Baghdad.

Researchers drew on hospital records, official US military statistics, news reports, and survey methodology to arrive at their figures.

They were also able to make use of two earlier studies on Iraq's war dead from Iraq Body Count, a website which has kept a running total of those killed, and the Campaign for Innocent Victims in Conflict, which has sought to count the dead and injured of the war in order to pursue compensation claims for their families.

The new report, which estimates Iraq's war dead at between 10,800 and 15,100, uses a far more rigorous definition of civilian than the other studies to arrive at a figure of between 3,200 and 4,300 civilian noncombatants.

It breaks down the combat deaths of up to 10,800 Iraqis who fought the American invasion. The figures include regular Iraqi troops, as well as members of the Ba'ath party and other militias.

The killing was concentrated - with heavy casualties at the southern entrances of Baghdad - but as many as 80% of the Iraqi army units survived the war relatively unscathed, in part because troops deserted.

As many as 5,726 Iraqis were killed in the US assault on Baghdad, when the streets of the Iraqi capital were strewn with the bodies of people trying to flee the fighting.

As many as 3,531 - more than half - of the dead in the assault on the capital were noncombatant civilians, according to the report.

Overall in Iraq, the ratio of civilian to military deaths is almost twice as high as it was in the last Gulf war in 1991. The overall toll of the first war was far higher - with estimates of 20,000 Iraqi soldiers and 3,500 civilians killed.

However, Operation Iraqi Freedom, as the US military calls this year's war, has proved far deadlier to Iraqi civilians both in absolute numbers, and in the proportion of noncombatant to military deaths.

The findings defy the reasoning that precision-guided weapons spare civilian lives. According to the author of the study, Carol Conetta, 68% of the munitions used in this war were precision-guided, compared with 6.5 % in 1991.

However, he argued yesterday that his report demonstrated that sophisticated weaponry did not necessarily offer protection to civilians in war zones.

"Many of the recent wars have been fought with the notion of a new type of warfare that produce very low civilian casualties. What we see here is that in fact we don't have that magic bullet," he said.

"In this war in particular we see that improved capabilities in precision attacks have been used to pursue more ambitious objectives rather than achieve lower numbers of civilian dead."

Counting the human cost

Total war dead (Iraq)

Between 10,800 and 15,100, with a midpoint of 12,950

Combatants killed (Iraq)

Between 7,600 and 10,800, with a midpoint of 9,200

Noncombatants killed (Iraq)

Between 3,200 and 4,300, with a midpoint of 3,750

War dead (Baghdad)

Between 4,376 and 5,726, with a midpoint of 5,051

Combatants killed (Baghdad)

Between 2,224 and 3,531, with a midpoint of 2,878

Noncombatants killed (Baghdad)

Between 1,990 and 2,357, with a midpoint of 2,174

? Source: Project on Defence Alternatives research

www.comw.org/pda


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Zahid]
    #2052689 - 10/29/03 01:23 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Wonder how much coverage that will get in the mainstream media...


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
Male
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 1,047
Loc: Wales (yes it is a countr...
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Xlea321]
    #2053384 - 10/29/03 10:48 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

3,500 Civilians killed in Gulf War
3,750 Civilians killed in Gulf War II (Using their mid-point value)

Unfortunate, yet unavoidable. Considering some of you have been suggesting the figure is 40,000 this is quite reassuring.

Quote:

Overall in Iraq, the ratio of civilian to military deaths is almost twice as high as it was in the last Gulf war in 1991. The overall toll of the first war was far higher - with estimates of 20,000 Iraqi soldiers and 3,500 civilians killed.




This is open to interpretation, the Iraqi's put up a better fight? Coalition forces were not as effective this time round? Neither???

Quote:

However, Operation Iraqi Freedom, as the US military calls this year's war, has proved far deadlier to Iraqi civilians both in absolute numbers, and in the proportion of noncombatant to military deaths.




LOL, "has proved far deadlier to Iraqi Civilians"...
Perhaps this could have something to do with the fact that the Gulf War was fought in Kuwait and Gulf War II being fought in Iraq?...

Quote:

Wonder how much coverage that will get in the mainstream media...




The Guardian... what do you class as mainstream media then?



--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBhairabas
Stranger

Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 889
Loc: Toronto Canada
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2053976 - 10/29/03 03:02 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Funny how when 4000 civilians die in another country nonone say's anything.. But if Americans die it's the single worsed catastrophe ever seen.. Don't expect anyone to take responsibilty..

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Bhairabas]
    #2053992 - 10/29/03 03:11 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bhairabas said:
Funny how when 4000 civilians die in another country nonone say's anything.. But if Americans die it's the single worsed catastrophe ever seen.. Don't expect anyone to take responsibilty..



Golly, could it be because the Iraqis died in a war zone (rightly or wrongly, and the Americans died by an act of terrorism when it wasn't expected.

Could it be because the Iraqis died over a period of months while the Americans died in a period of minutes?

Next time you try to compare apples and oranges, make sure they aren't already rotten.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBhairabas
Stranger

Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 889
Loc: Toronto Canada
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2054010 - 10/29/03 03:19 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Apple's,orange's?? All I see is people dead.. Maybe their different to you..

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Bhairabas]
    #2054013 - 10/29/03 03:21 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bhairabas said:
Apple's,orange's?? All I see is people dead.. Maybe their different to you..



Weak try but it's not that the people are different, it's the manner in which they died.

Read it again, perhaps you'll get it the second time.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/09/02
Posts: 807
Loc: Dade County
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2054078 - 10/29/03 03:48 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

luvdemshrooms. your posts make me crazy. i cant understand how you possibly support your views. whats your age, ethnic background and education? jus curious.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2054095 - 10/29/03 03:54 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Unfortunate, yet unavoidable.

Don't be silly. The invasion of Iraq was completely avoidable.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: thescientist]
    #2054130 - 10/29/03 04:08 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Are you saying you don't see a difference between 3500 people dying at almost the same time vs the same number dying over several months?

Are you saying you don't see a difference between collateral damage in a war zone vs a terrorist act?

I hope that's not what your saying because if it is... you were crazy long before reading anything I've ever written.

And I come up with my views using a fairly strict interpretation of the constitution, the libertarian party platform, reading, listening, and here's the one several here find to be a foreign concept..... thinking. Add to that a desire to have proof of wrongdoing, a hesitancy to leap to conclusion, a desire for honesty, a love of facts, and a dislike for liars and cheats. I believe in personal responsibility, I have a desire to do the right thing and an expectation that others do the same.


My age? Old enough to know that some of what I believed when young was wrong and that I in fact, did not have all the answers. (a lesson many here need to learn)

Ethnic background? I was born here in America so that would make me a native american.

Edjumakashun? I'm fucking omnipotent so I don kneed know edjumakashun.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2054156 - 10/29/03 04:19 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Are you saying you don't see a difference between 3500 people dying at almost the same time vs the same number dying over several months?

What is the difference? It took the Nazi's years to kill 6 million jews, does the time it takes to kill innocent people really make any difference to them or their families?

Are you saying you don't see a difference between collateral damage in a war zone vs a terrorist act?

So because George Bush sees fit to make Baghdad a "war zone" it's ok to kill civilians there? Sorry, I don't buy it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Xlea321]
    #2054172 - 10/29/03 04:25 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

What is the difference? It took the Nazi's years to kill 6 million jews, does the time it takes to kill innocent people really make any difference to them or their families?



The difference is (as I've stated before, the time frame, and no.... it doesn't make any difference to the victims or their families. To them, dead is dead. It does however make a difference to most others and to the press.

Rightly or wrongly that's how it is.



Quote:

So because George Bush sees fit to make Baghdad a "war zone" it's ok to kill civilians there? Sorry, I don't buy it.



Since I didn't say it's OK to kill civilians anywhere, there's nothing for you to buy.

Funny how you get worked up over ACCIDENTAL collateral deaths but don't appear to care much about those killed by those cowardly scumbag Palestinian homicide bombers.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineorizon
shroomin bliss

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 876
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2054535 - 10/29/03 06:46 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I'm backin up luvdemshrooms on this one...he knows what hes talking about and has the facts to back it up. I dont want to see anybody die but there is a difference between people dyeing from terrorist acts and people who are accidentally killed in a war zone. The people who attacked the world trade center were deliberately focusing there fire on civilians. Im not at all saying a life here is more important than a life over there...but if the east coast was declared a war zone that staying put or running around in the streets is asking for trouble. I also would like to add that those statistics may be far from the truth. I know that there were Iraqi soldiers dressed up in civilian clothes that drove civilian buses and cars armed with guns or bombs which were used for suicide collisions. I remember watching the news when the US went in and they were saying how hard it was to seperate civilians and soldiers on the battlefield. I remember one incedent where a whole mini-bus was filled with soldiers dressed in civilian clothes...and they used this disguise to get close eneouph to US soldiers to unload there fire. The US didnt even see it coming cause they thought they were just citezens fleeing the city. So how do the people who are counting tally up the numbers that were actually killed? Are the Sadaam supporters armed with guns shooting at US soldiers considered a civilian just because they are not dressed in official Iraqi army uniform?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: orizon]
    #2054570 - 10/29/03 06:59 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I'm backin up luvdemshrooms on this one



DUCK!!!!  :lol:



Quote:

So how do the people who are counting tally up the numbers that were actually killed? Are the Sadaam supporters armed with guns shooting at US soldiers considered a civilian just because they are not dressed in official Iraqi army uniform?



Good questions.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2054579 - 10/29/03 07:06 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Are you saying you don't see a difference between 3500 people dying at almost the same time vs the same number dying over several months?

Oh, I see...it's ok to kill a lot of people if you just spread it out:smirk:


As far as "accidental collateral deaths" goes...

"Smart bombs" aren't that smart and probably don't reduce civilian deaths too much.

How many bombs did the US drop on Baghdad alone in the war? 40,000? 60,000? I stopped counting after the third day of the war.


All this to kill a "dictator", who by definition is not in power by the will of the People. 15,000 Iraqi men and women along with hundreds of American soldiers may have died to cause "regime change".

If your government turned into a dictatorship (just imagine it did, ok) how would you feel when your family members started to die as a result of another country's ideas for "regime change"?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: trendal]
    #2054603 - 10/29/03 07:15 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Oh, I see...it's ok to kill a lot of people if you just spread it out.    :smirk:




*sigh*

You're shitting me. I can't believe this is necessary. Show me where I said it was OK.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2054616 - 10/29/03 07:18 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

It looks like you are trying to justify the deaths of Iraqi civilians because they happened in a war zone during a month's time.

Sorry, that's just what I got from your statements. :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
Sober Surfer
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 11,528
Loc: North Carolina
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2054969 - 10/29/03 08:46 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"So how do the people who are counting tally up the numbers that were actually killed? Are the Sadaam supporters armed with guns shooting at US soldiers considered a civilian just because they are not dressed in official Iraqi army uniform?"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Good questions."



try reading the article...

The new report, which estimates Iraq's war dead at between 10,800 and 15,100, uses a far more rigorous definition of civilian than the other studies to arrive at a figure of between 3,200 and 4,300 civilian noncombatants.

It breaks down the combat deaths of up to 10,800 Iraqis who fought the American invasion. The figures include regular Iraqi troops, as well as members of the Ba'ath party and other militias.


--------------------
Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 11 years, 12 days
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #2054982 - 10/29/03 08:48 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

JonnyOnTheSpot said:
It breaks down the combat deaths of up to 10,800 Iraqis who fought the American invasion. The figures include regular Iraqi troops, as well as members of the Ba'ath party and other militias.





Do you think that the baathists keep name and photo records of all their members. There would no way to tell if a dead body wearing civillian clothes is really a civillian.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: d33p]
    #2054987 - 10/29/03 08:50 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

There would no way to tell if a dead body wearing civillian clothes is really a civillian.



Exactly


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2055174 - 10/29/03 09:41 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Not a very precise way of thinking. Fundamentalist Muslims use similiar logic when carrying out 'martyrdom' attacks: 'We cannot seperate the infidel who supports the Zionist Entity from the innocent people who mix with him. Our attack is against those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle.*' (quoted by a French-Palestinian man who later wrote about the experience of extremism in the occupied territories). Suicide bombers rarely intentionally target groups of old people/children/women directly - when those groups of people do die, it is the result of fanatical reasoning similiar to that of war mongers who support such primitive invasions of other countries.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Zahid]
    #2055437 - 10/29/03 10:56 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Not a very precise way of thinking. Fundamentalist Muslims use similiar logic when carrying out 'martyrdom' attacks: 'We cannot seperate the infidel who supports the Zionist Entity from the innocent people who mix with him. Our attack is against those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle.*' (quoted by a French-Palestinian man who later wrote about the experience of extremism in the occupied territories).



A good point.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineorizon
shroomin bliss

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 876
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2055825 - 10/30/03 12:57 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

That is a good point...Nevertheless, innocent civilians caught in the line of fire is still much different than civilians intentionally murdered. Not that one should be mourned more than the other, just that one is a unfortunate accident while the other clearly is not. Kind of like comparing first degree murder to manslaughter....they are both wrong but not equally wrong. The US effort in Bagdad is being conducted in a fashion which is doing everything possible too keep civilians out of the line of fire. Thats why we are doing this form of battle called "Urban warfare" That palestenian suicide bomber conducts a much more barbaric fashion of trying to eliminate his enemies. If America wanted to rage battle in a way similar to a suicide bomber (measured up due to US army might), then we would just go in and carpet bomb the whole city of bagdad, taking out our enemies, and anybody else who happens to be hanging around. That would be sinical. Im quoting this guy here: Suicide bombers rarely intentionally target groups of old people/children/women directly. Rarely!!!!! American forces NEVER intentionally target groups of old people children woman or any civilan for that matter directly. All this guy is saying is that he targets his oppenents in the places that do the most damage..... whether or not woman and children are killed is inmaterial to him. I dont think US forces should be at all compared to the views of this guy. No more Iraqi forces exist as a controlled unit anymore. Its basically just the remnants of the army hiding out and striking when the times right. The enemy has clearly taken advantage of United States attemps to do the best they can to not hit civilians. Then when some of these guys masquerading as civilans are hit, they can easily be identified as a innocent citizen. Saying they are distingusing the two with a "far more rigorous definition of civilian" does not answer my question to its desired extent. Who's making the decisions first of all and precisley what methods are used to distingusish a civilan from a soldier?....well not a soldier....a hostile anti-American unit.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2055840 - 10/30/03 01:02 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Funny how you get worked up over ACCIDENTAL collateral deaths

Nah, you swallow the "collateral damage" nonsense if you want to, I'm afraid I don't. An accidental death is someone tripping off the kerb in front of a moving car. When you are dropping tons of high explosive on a city we're a little beyond "accidental death".


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Zahid]
    #2056082 - 10/30/03 02:12 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Karma is a bitch and we keep giving her more wrath. When she bites back WTC is going to look like a molehill. When, not if, that happens... all of these callous assholes will know more about how it feels to be an iraqi then any article or number could ever begin to tell them. Until then, I pray for justice to be returned and I pray for those who never deserved this injustice in the name of something their country had not a fucking bit of involvement in, no matter how much faux news and faux presidents say they did.



--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Xlea321]
    #2056302 - 10/30/03 03:51 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Funny how you get worked up over ACCIDENTAL collateral deaths

Nah, you swallow the "collateral damage" nonsense if you want to, I'm afraid I don't. An accidental death is someone tripping off the kerb in front of a moving car. When you are dropping tons of high explosive on a city we're a little beyond "accidental death".




Redefining again? What a surprise.

I have not attempted to define collateral damage, or death in a war zone as an accidental death and I can't for the life of me figure out why you would attempt to. Oh wait... yes I can..

If you wish to compare deliberate murders of civilians with inadvertent deaths of civilians, you feel free.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2056444 - 10/30/03 06:52 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

If you wish to compare deliberate murders of civilians with inadvertent deaths of civilians, you feel free.

Perhaps because there's nothing "inadvertent" about dropping high explosives on a city.

Drop high explosives on a city, innocent people die. It really is that simple.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Xlea321]
    #2056666 - 10/30/03 09:12 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Exactly.

They (the US administration) knew that innocent civilians would die as a result of the bombs they were dropping.

If they knew they would be killing civilians, how was it an accident?

If A cop opened fire on a criminal in a CROWDED room of innocents and started wounding and killing a bunch of those innocents just go get to the bad guy...well you can imagine the kind of trouble that cop would get into.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
Male
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 1,047
Loc: Wales (yes it is a countr...
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: trendal]
    #2056749 - 10/30/03 09:58 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting comparison but flawed
Warzone > Crowded Room
Most can differentiate between the two....

Civilians were not targeted.
As a good friend of mine would say It's as simple as that
and Btw

Learyfan Knew



--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2056796 - 10/30/03 10:28 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Heh, I did not mean to make a direct comparrison.

But personally I do not agree with the excuse of a "warzone" in the deaths of innocent civilians. I understand that civilian death is inevitable in war, but I don't see a need to try and justify it.

Further, I would hold this true for any war, not just the recent Iraqi "Liberation" war which if you haven't noticed was an entirely new form of warfare.

What occured was a sickening demonstration of force. If anyone can't understand that...you must be blind. Do you know why there were significantly less Iraqi Armed Forces killed in this war than the Gulf War? Because there were hardly any left and most who were left were young, undertrained, and ready to desert at the first chance. And the American Military rode in with their cruise missiles, tanks, Bradley Fighting Vehicles, and fleet of ultra-sophistocated attack jets and bombers.

To remove a few men from power.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
Male
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 1,047
Loc: Wales (yes it is a countr...
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: trendal]
    #2056832 - 10/30/03 10:44 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Noted. However, I dont think anyone, myself included, was trying to justify the death of innocent civilians. If that is at all possible.

As for your other comments and in an attempt to link them to the topic of the thread. Do you believe the coaltion's "sickening demonstration of force" was a negative contributory factor to the number of civilian deaths?

Quote:

Further, I would hold this true for any[i/] war




Btw, it is good to see you do not suffer from selective anti-war syndrome....


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2056903 - 10/30/03 11:20 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Do you believe the coaltion's "sickening demonstration of force" was a negative contributory factor to the number of civilian deaths?

Yes, very much so. I think the US has a lot more power in killing individuals or small groups of people than they let on. They quite likely could have taken out Saddam without dropping the number of bombs they did.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2057895 - 10/30/03 04:29 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe if Saddam didn't hide his troops in civilian centers, and HAmas didn't build bombs in Mosques, this wouldn't be such a problem, anywhere in teh Arab world?


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2057904 - 10/30/03 04:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sure that the same people that think that the US "deserved" 9/11 are going to be beating their chests over these four thousand. How odd.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2057916 - 10/30/03 04:33 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

i'd also like to note that the "Project on Defence Alternatives" webpage is filled with .pdf after .pdf downing the president, powell, and the entire war effort, while offering no "alternatives". How objective!


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 11 years, 12 days
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2058122 - 10/30/03 05:32 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Karma is a bitch and we keep giving her more wrath. When she bites back WTC is going to look like a molehill. When, not if, that happens... all of these callous assholes will know more about how it feels to be an iraqi then any article or number could ever begin to tell them. Until then, I pray for justice to be returned and I pray for those who never deserved this injustice in the name of something their country had not a fucking bit of involvement in, no matter how much faux news and faux presidents say they did.






I dont want to put words in your mouth but you said you are praying for justice to be returned and you say 9/11 will look like a molehill.

So you are praying for the death of thousands of people. Wow good thinking. All i can say is i hope you are on the next hijacked bus or plane and see how much you want this "justice" returned.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2058153 - 10/30/03 05:45 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Karma is a bitch and we keep giving her more wrath. When she bites back WTC is going to look like a molehill. When, not if, that happens... all of these callous assholes will know more about how it feels to be an iraqi then any article or number could ever begin to tell them. Until then, I pray for justice to be returned and I pray for those who never deserved this injustice in the name of something their country had not a fucking bit of involvement in, no matter how much faux news and faux presidents say they did.







Why are American deaths always a "payback" for some American fault, and thus, deserved, while innocents dying other places is, you guessed it, still America's fault?


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMisterKite
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: lysergic]
    #2058560 - 10/30/03 08:04 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

d33p- that is such a fucking distortion of what he said!!! He was praying for justice to be returned, so that the karmic pendulum wouldn't swing back with a nuclear punch that may just decimate one of the major U.S. cities.

lysergic- Psilokitten does not want American innocents to die!!!! What the fuck is wrong with you?? Read his post more carefully. He's saying they will die if America doesn't let go of its self righteous need to drop bombs on preschools and hospitals for the benefit of the very country who its destroying(wars seem a bit contradictory to me).


--------------------
"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 11 years, 12 days
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: MisterKite]
    #2058592 - 10/30/03 08:12 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Well looking at her first sentence it does seem to support what you are saying. But she made it a little wordy and her placement of the sentences makes it somewhat unclear. Put that she wants justice to be returned right after saying america wrongfully attack iraqi made we confused i guess.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: d33p]
    #2058976 - 10/30/03 09:58 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I did, I pray that justice is done. I pray that people who kill innocent people recieve their due justice. Be them american or israeli, or pakistani, syrian, saudi arabian.. etc and so forth.

I acknowledge that killing innocent people is wrong and our government is killing innocent people. These people were not responsible for the wrongs perpetrated against our country on sept 11th, they were not responsible for the man we sponsored and put into power to repress them. No more then the people in the WTC were responsible for the foreign policy that led 19 people to hate us so much that is the only way they felt they could get the point across was to ram planes into the WTC. Two wrongs do not make a right.. they instead continue to spiral things out of control.

Instead of working to fix the problem, we have caused many many more. Hence why I said that 911 will look like a molehill compared to the mountain to come. I dont wish death and destruction on anyone. That doesnt mean that there isnt payback for deeds. That doesnt mean that I dont acknowledge that we get what we give. Unfortunately, the people that are responsible will not be the ones that die... just like the current situation.. innocent people will die. Innocent people will pay. I pray that justice finds those responsible and that no more innocent people on any "side" have to die.

My post didnt wish death on thousands of people. You chose to interpret it that way. You chose to see me only how you have your preconcieved mind set to see. Good luck with that.

If I did happen to be on that bus, or that plane, or in that building. It's not something I fear. My conscience is clean and this world is not something I cling to.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: lysergic]
    #2058981 - 10/30/03 09:59 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Put some more words in my mouth and so even less reading comprehension.

Good luck to you with that, as well.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: d33p]
    #2058987 - 10/30/03 10:02 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Wordy, eh? Ill leave my smart assed remark out because it may fall on deaf ears.

I think you read it with a biased heart.

But, that's just my opnion


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: MisterKite]
    #2058991 - 10/30/03 10:04 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

MisterKite, thanks.

Im a lady though... just FYI :smile:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2059023 - 10/30/03 10:15 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

However, I dont think anyone, myself included, was trying to justify the death of innocent civilians. If that is at all possible.

it's sickening, but some people here have gone to great lengths to justify the killing of innocent people.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2059132 - 10/30/03 10:37 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Civilians were not targeted.

So dropping high explosives on a city isn't targeting civilians?

Then what is it precisely?

Drop high explosives on a city, innocent people die. That's a given. Now if you go ahead and still drop high explosives on a city you are not "accidentally" killing anyone. You know innocents are going to die and you drop the bombs anyway.

If the washington sniper had his eyes closed when he pulled the trigger and wasn't "deliberately targeting" anyone, would you declare him innocent?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: trendal]
    #2059791 - 10/31/03 03:32 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
It looks like you are trying to justify the deaths of Iraqi civilians because they happened in a war zone during a month's time.

Sorry, that's just what I got from your statements. :smirk: 



Learn to read. If you then still need help let me know.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
Male
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 1,047
Loc: Wales (yes it is a countr...
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Xlea321]
    #2059808 - 10/31/03 03:45 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Another analogy... surprising...


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineorizon
shroomin bliss

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 876
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2059881 - 10/31/03 05:00 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Saying "dropping high explosives on a targeted city" is kind of a broad statement of what is actually happening. Strategically targeting explosives on military compounds within a city would be a more precise way of describing US intentions. Unless you know something that I dont then civilains are of course not targeted. Sticking a gun to the head of a civilain and pulling the trigger, is "targeting a civilian". A soldier who fires his gun at the enemy, then the bullet goes through the soldier and "accidentally" strikes a civilian is collateral damage. Of course this example Im sure is not responsible for all civilian deaths but Im just trying to put things into perspective. If you believe that a American soldier would throw a grenade in a building that consists of civilans and Iraqi soldiers, then you are greatly misconstruing the essence of US morals and values. Whether or not this is happening, which I doubt it has, is the poor judgement of an individual rather than the overall intent of US objectives. As I said before, if US just wanted to make things easier and cheaper, disregarding ethics and humanity, then we can easily just level the city of baghdad and furthermore save the lives of US soldiers. Of course engaging in this new type of Urban warefare is United States attempt to seperate the "good" from the "bad". And until we have a smart bomb that can be dropped on a city that will only kill the bad guys, then this (for now) is the best we can do. Everybody who is ridiculing gov't decisions to ensure the safety of the world against terrorism I'm sure would start pointing fingers at our gov't again if they let a terrorist slip by and set off a nuke in a major city. (American or not)
---By the way I just wanted to share statistc I learned on the "o-Reilly factor" last night. A recent poll taken in Iraq, given to the citezens of Iraq, has shown that over 76% of the people are happy that Sadaam is out of office and thankful for US efforts. This poll was given to the people who are first handingly suffering the consequences of war. However there are still people in the US who are criticizing American efforts. Kinda pathetic I think. Like I said, I hate to see people die, but I am willing to accept the fact that unfortunately innocent people will die to ensure that millions more won't in the future.
Peace, Orizon

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2060060 - 10/31/03 08:20 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Learn to read. If you then still need help let me know.

Come on now, no need for personal attacks :smirk:

This is the internet after all, and that makes it a lot easier to misjudge someone's intent. I said I was sorry, eh.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: trendal]
    #2060640 - 10/31/03 01:08 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

But what if personal attacks are your only strategy?

I think a special section the shroomery should be recreated, like in days old.. called the flame pit..

People who cannot atleast base 50% of their attacks on facts, not personal crap, should be banished to the flame pit, where they can fight among themselves.

It would be so cathartic to finally be able to tell people exactly what you think about them without mincing a single word.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2060709 - 10/31/03 01:30 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Another analogy... surprising...

No attempt whatsoever to address the point...unsurprising..


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: orizon]
    #2060720 - 10/31/03 01:34 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Unless you know something that I dont then civilains are of course not targeted.

Dropping explosives on a city is going to kill innocent people. Agreed?

So if you go ahead and drop explosives on cities and kill innocent people what would you call it? It isn't an "accident" because you knew perfectly well innocents would die before you did it. So what is it?

As I said before, if US just wanted to make things easier and cheaper, disregarding ethics and humanity, then we can easily just level the city of baghdad and furthermore save the lives of US soldiers.

Nah, Hitler tried that. Doesn't tend to go down too well with world opinion.

Everybody who is ridiculing gov't decisions to ensure the safety of the world against terrorism

What had the invasion of Iraq to do with preventing terrorism? Bin Laden was in Afghanistan the last I heard.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: trendal]
    #2060816 - 10/31/03 02:00 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Personal attack?  :lol:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2061091 - 10/31/03 03:40 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Again, if saddam didn't hide his troops in schools, and Hamas didn't build bombs in Mosques, this wouldnt' happen. Sadly, they do, and we destroy them. Number of minutes of sleep lost: Zero


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: lysergic]
    #2061275 - 10/31/03 04:59 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

It's interesting that this "study" to determine how many "people" were killed, didn't mention any US deaths. Mayeb they just weren't important enough to consider.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Zahid]
    #2061282 - 10/31/03 05:02 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Not a very precise way of thinking. Fundamentalist Muslims use similiar logic when carrying out 'martyrdom' attacks: 'We cannot seperate the infidel who supports the Zionist Entity from the innocent people who mix with him. Our attack is against those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle.*' (quoted by a French-Palestinian man who later wrote about the experience of extremism in the occupied territories). Suicide bombers rarely intentionally target groups of old people/children/women directly - when those groups of people do die, it is the result of fanatical reasoning similiar to that of war mongers who support such primitive invasions of other countries.




Do these martyrs see bus drivers as the Zionist enemy, and the passengers as the innocents that just happen to die? Or maybe the dischoteque owners as the zionist enemies, and the children that happen to be in them are athe innocents? Or maybe it's teh marketplace owners, thats why they blow themselves up in places lik that. Can you possibly argue that the vast majority of suicide/homicidie bombings are directed at military targets, and they juts happen to kill soem innocent people?


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: lysergic]
    #2061404 - 10/31/03 06:12 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lysergic said:
It's interesting that this "study" to determine how many "people" were killed, didn't mention any US deaths. Mayeb they just weren't important enough to consider.




Maybe, and this is just a wild stab in the dark here...maybe it's because the study is titled The Wages of War: Iraqi Combatant and Noncombatant Fatalities in the 2003 Conflict.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Edame]
    #2061454 - 10/31/03 06:34 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Heh, your stab in the dark is most likely correct :smile: My oversite.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: lysergic]
    #2061493 - 10/31/03 06:47 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lysergic said:
Do these martyrs see bus drivers as the Zionist enemy, and the passengers as the innocents that just happen to die? Or maybe the dischoteque owners as the zionist enemies, and the children that happen to be in them are athe innocents? Or maybe it's teh marketplace owners, thats why they blow themselves up in places lik that. Can you possibly argue that the vast majority of suicide/homicidie bombings are directed at military targets, and they juts happen to kill soem innocent people?




You obviously do not understand the first thing about the psychology of suicide bombers and what makes 'em tick. In case you were unaware, it is mandatory to serve in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF - your contemporary Jewish army); this in particular is the foundation of militant rhetoric - every adult has in some way contributed to the military machine of the Zionist entity, and thus they are allowed to be killed (according to them). Hamas and al-Qaeda like to make reference to a fourth book Sunan Abu-Dawud narrated hadith where the Prophet Muhammad said it was permissible to fight the Meccans if they attempt to deceive the Muslim army by 'mixing' with innocents near the Sacred Mosque (The Kaaba) - In an evidently out of context interpretation, this religio centric perversion is used by terrorists to justify the death of old people, children, other Muslims, etc. But mostly, Palestinians use such desperate fighting methods because they have no other means of resisting against the murderous occupation of Israel.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Zahid]
    #2061501 - 10/31/03 06:51 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"murderous occupation of Israel " - Explain how the actions ofthe arab nations the DAY After Isareal was made into a nation is such


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: lysergic]
    #2061546 - 10/31/03 07:10 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

They really ought to teach the history of the Israeli/Arab conflict in school.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 2 hours, 41 minutes
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Zahid]
    #2061553 - 10/31/03 07:12 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Man, in public school They didn't teach shit about world history. I swear I've had something like 6-7 years of American history.


--------------------
This space for rent

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2061866 - 10/31/03 10:37 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

And how good was what they taught you about your own history?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 2 hours, 41 minutes
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: trendal]
    #2062012 - 10/31/03 11:40 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Not sure.

I guess that depends on whether or not America is some kind of glowing god who's shit smells like roses and who has saved the world on more than one occasion.

Oh, and uh. FREEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM!!!!!!! (Which we invented BTW)


--------------------
This space for rent

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSanityIsOvrRated
Live for Today

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 218
Loc: NY
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2062141 - 11/01/03 01:02 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Are you saying you don't see a difference between 3500 people dying at almost the same time vs the same number dying over several months?

Are you saying you don't see a difference between collateral damage in a war zone vs a terrorist act?




http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/6800425.htm
"WASHINGTON - President Bush said Wednesday that there has been ``no evidence'' that Iraq's Saddam Hussein was involved in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, disavowing a link that had been hinted previously by his administration.

``No, we've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September the 11th,'' the president said after a meeting at the White House with lawmakers."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: SanityIsOvrRated]
    #2062345 - 11/01/03 05:54 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

You seem to have missed the point of my comments, the thrust of my posts are about how people perceive deaths. Not whether or not the Iraqis were involved in 9-11.

Go back and read them again and try to post something relative to whomever you decide to respond to next.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (11/01/03 06:50 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSanityIsOvrRated
Live for Today

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 218
Loc: NY
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2062805 - 11/01/03 01:46 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I've read all the posts in this thread thoroughly, thank you. My point is that this entire thread seems to perpetuate the myth that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. "Well, we're nice guys because we didn't intentionally murder citizens, not like those 911 bastards." The 15,000 killed in Iraq are not justified, period, becuase our reason for going to war was a lie. Where's those weapons of mass destruction? Where's the thousands of US citizens murdered by Iraqi extremists?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: SanityIsOvrRated]
    #2062935 - 11/01/03 03:06 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Huh? That made no sense, sanity.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: SanityIsOvrRated]
    #2064220 - 11/02/03 02:21 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Where's those weapons of mass destruction?

Luv's fave response to this is "just because they havn't found them doesn't mean they arn't there".

Which is the same argument people who believe in the Loch Ness monster and those who believe Elvis is still alive cling to...


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Xlea321]
    #2064368 - 11/02/03 05:11 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

actually, now the standard response seems to be: "it doesn't matter that there are no weapons of mass destruction, we went to war for humanitarian reasons."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePsilocybeingzz
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2064377 - 11/02/03 05:21 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"Where's those weapons of mass destruction?

Luv's fave response to this is "just because they havn't found them doesn't mean they arn't there".

Which is the same argument people who believe in the Loch Ness monster and those who believe Elvis is still alive cling to... "


SO!
SO!
true!

I cant wait until this sept 11 info comes out!

I hope hearing goes deep!

didnt bush get info, right AFTER the first plane hit, and he just sat there calm as if nothing happened???
or is this a bull????


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Xlea321]
    #2064399 - 11/02/03 05:53 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

And that contributed to the thread how?

So, can you debate what I say factually?
Can you show how not finding something proves it never existed?

Even better.... can you be honest enough to admit that I also said I don't know if they are there or not?



And judging by the way you seem to think you're being clever by bringing up Elvis and Nessie, I'd say you have an unhealthy fixation with them. I bet you have a picture of you with one of those cardboard likenesses you stick your head through making it appear as if your head is on his body.




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
Male
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 1,047
Loc: Wales (yes it is a countr...
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2064486 - 11/02/03 07:49 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

LOL, this thread has lot all real point. Clearly the left will only accept civilian deaths "authorised" ( I lack a more appropriate word) by Supreme Lord Kofi Annan....


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePsilocybeingzz
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2064544 - 11/02/03 09:03 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"Clearly the left will only accept civilian deaths "authorised" ( I lack a more appropriate word) by Supreme Lord Kofi Annan...."
and the right will take all they can get?

and by the way , how the fuck does your statement even make sense?
I know WHAT you mean , I just dont see how it applies to reality ??


Iraq is just another country america took over for resources just like afganistan(the pipeline between afganistan and pakistan wouldnt have anyhting to do with that war ..............right?????)

you can say right left and up and fucking down all you want, a whole country was attacked and taken over for finacial gain NOTHING MORE, dont give me some story about the KURDS or something america was in this for OIL!

right? left?
thats just fucking SICK







--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
Male
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 1,047
Loc: Wales (yes it is a countr...
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2064558 - 11/02/03 09:14 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

[quote
Quote:

LOL, this thread has lot all real point. Clearly the left will only accept civilian deaths "authorised" ( I lack a more appropriate word) by Supreme Lord Kofi Annan....




and by the way , how the fuck does your statement even make sense?
I know WHAT you mean , I just dont see how it applies to reality ??


]

Makes perfect sense to me. With the exception of "lot" instead of lost. It was a dig nothing more, you'll see quite a few of them...

Quote:

Iraq is just another country america took over for resources just like afganistan(the pipeline between afganistan and pakistan wouldnt have anyhting to do with that war ..............right?????)




Speculation, your take. Personally I think military action against Afghanistan had more to do with 9/11 than oil. As for Iraq I know where I stand and I see no reason to reiterate my position.

Quote:

you can say right left and up and fucking down all you want, a whole country was attacked and taken over for finacial gain NOTHING MORE, dont give me some story about the KURDS or something america was in this for OIL!




I've seen rants with more passion...

Quote:

right? left?
thats just fucking SICK




Without them how would you know what side of the road to drive on....


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2064567 - 11/02/03 09:17 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Without them how would you know what side of the road to drive on....



Or which way to turn?
Or which hand your watch goes on?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePsilocybeingzz
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2064573 - 11/02/03 09:21 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"Speculation, your take. Personally I think military action against Afghanistan had more to do with 9/11 than oil. As for Iraq I know where I stand and I see no reason to reiterate my position."

well then why was america going to attack afganistan in october BEFORE sept.11 happened
huh?????
explain that to me
please


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2064579 - 11/02/03 09:25 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Try responding to the person who made the statement you question.

In other words.... if you must use quick reply, at least use the persons name.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
Male
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 1,047
Loc: Wales (yes it is a countr...
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2064584 - 11/02/03 09:29 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

well then why was america going to attack afganistan in october BEFORE sept.11 happened




Previous administration.

Perhaps they share war plans....


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2064647 - 11/02/03 10:10 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Nope, Bush administration.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Xlea321]
    #2065127 - 11/02/03 01:28 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Hart Rudman Report...

Clinton did indeed recommend strategies on going after Bin Laden, only in a different country.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2065153 - 11/02/03 01:32 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

st0nedphucker said:
[quote
Quote:

LOL, this thread has lot all real point. Clearly the left will only accept civilian deaths "authorised" ( I lack a more appropriate word) by Supreme Lord Kofi Annan....




and by the way , how the fuck does your statement even make sense?
I know WHAT you mean , I just dont see how it applies to reality ??


]

Makes perfect sense to me. With the exception of "lot" instead of lost. It was a dig nothing more, you'll see quite a few of them...

Quote:

Iraq is just another country america took over for resources just like afganistan(the pipeline between afganistan and pakistan wouldnt have anyhting to do with that war ..............right?????)




Speculation, your take. Personally I think military action against Afghanistan had more to do with 9/11 than oil. As for Iraq I know where I stand and I see no reason to reiterate my position.

Quote:

you can say right left and up and fucking down all you want, a whole country was attacked and taken over for finacial gain NOTHING MORE, dont give me some story about the KURDS or something america was in this for OIL!




I've seen rants with more passion...

Quote:

right? left?
thats just fucking SICK




Without them how would you know what side of the road to drive on....
 







A war to win assets and help out a nation? This hasn't happened since... Oh.. wait... pretty much every war in world history :smile:


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Wolfowitz: Iraq war WAS about oil
( 1 2 3 all )
LearyfanS 3,544 45 06/23/03 01:08 AM
by recalcitrant
* Bets for Iraq war
( 1 2 all )
Buddha5254 1,666 25 03/17/03 01:40 PM
by EchoVortex
* Iraq War Quiz
( 1 2 all )
RonoS 2,866 21 03/27/03 12:51 PM
by Murex
* Iraq war recap
( 1 2 3 all )
iglou 2,871 43 08/08/03 04:55 AM
by ololiuqui
* Even Communist San Francisco Backs Iraq War Anonymous 796 8 04/09/03 03:45 PM
by Phred
* Question for pro-Iraq war guys
( 1 2 3 4 all )
LearyfanS 3,673 62 05/31/03 08:04 PM
by silversoul7
* DC protest OCT 26 against Iraq war
( 1 2 3 all )
Buddha5254 4,916 49 10/18/02 12:26 PM
by Innvertigo
* My thoughts, Iraq, war, and genocide Ellis Dee 1,785 14 03/18/03 04:11 AM
by Anonymous

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
4,903 topic views. 2 members, 3 guests and 26 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.045 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 14 queries.