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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1947941 - 09/24/03 12:41 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

no way!..really? thank you so much for telling me how things work around here...perhaps you missed the sarcasm in the post...hence the yellow "smirk" face.



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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1947969 - 09/24/03 12:46 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I think Rono was having a jolly with you mush.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleScratcher
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Phred]
    #1948031 - 09/24/03 01:06 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Wow, you spent all morning typing that out just for me?

Listen man, I knew the outcome of this little discussion before I typed the first word. Never once did I think for a second that I could out duel you in this forum because you are obviously a very intelligent person with a mother lode of factual knowledge. My understanding of the world around me cannot compete with yours and I freely admit it. I thought I'd give it a shot though and see what happens. I've been shot down in flames but it was fun while it lasted.

Here's the bottom line: I love the US people just as I love all of humanity. It is the US government that I loathe. Every day I turn on the TV and am sickened by their behavior. LIE after LIE after LIE. But I will admit that if you got GW alone in a room and injected him with truth syrum that he would probably tell you that he honestly does have noble intentions. That he honestly does believe in what he is doing. He has been handed the corrupt and greedy US system and he's dealing with it. IMO, here lies the problem though; the US goverment believes it is following the only path possible, there are no alternatives. I disagree. I believe that there is a path to US prosperity and security that does not involve violence and war and corporate greed. But aren't these things as American as it gets? Of course they are, America wrote the book on them. So in asking the US government to choose a peaceful path is, well, unAmerican. A peaceful planet is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination and I know this. I have almost come to accept it but I must tell you, it is not easy. I believe the future for our children and grandchildren is not a bright one. Because where does all of this thirst for money and power end? Seriously, what is the final outcome? Are we going to suddenly wake up one day in the future with a hellbent desire for LESS money and power? Sounds ridiculous doesn't it; wanting less. So again I ask you: where does it end? I would love to hear your opinion on this.


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InvisibleScratcher
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Registered: 01/05/00
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Phred]
    #1948036 - 09/24/03 01:09 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

PS You should have know I was going to cause you grief, I live just down the street from Rono.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1948048 - 09/24/03 01:12 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Don't be dragging me into your web of commie propaganda and lies... :wink:


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1948069 - 09/24/03 01:18 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

while it's true that acquiring an extensive knowledge of world events and mastery of history may take years, the principles of reason are something you can learn rather quickly, and if you're intelligent, can probably figure out on your own.

you will find that many people here have a decent grasp on history but not on reason. we spend alot less time here discussing concepts than we do current events. it's not just about knowledge, it's about interpretation. your humbleness is commendable, but don't sell yourself short. i'm sure you have the same capacity for reason as pinksharkmark does.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1948337 - 09/24/03 02:58 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

duh!

this thread is classic.

Scratcher is right.

the whole forensics angle in this forum
gets quite tedious at times....


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1948437 - 09/24/03 03:31 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Luvdem, do you see what I'm saying?



Yes, you're saying that because you didn't take the time to be prepared with your arguments that no-one should care. Sorry but it doesn't work that way and does your argument an injustice.




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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleScratcher
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1948760 - 09/24/03 04:52 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Enough talk, turn around and drop your pants so I can shove the business end of a pineapple up your ass.

How's THAT for a fancy comeback???


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1948775 - 09/24/03 04:55 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Scratcher said:
Enough talk, turn around and drop your pants so I can shove the business end of a pineapple up your ass.

How's THAT for a fancy comeback???



As lame as the rest of your posts.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1948983 - 09/24/03 05:58 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

sour grapes


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineClover
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1949878 - 09/24/03 10:22 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

America has no plans to rebuild anything.




No? How come?


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"Those sweet excesses I do adore."



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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1949954 - 09/24/03 10:55 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Scratcher writes:

Wow, you spent all morning typing that out just for me?

Naw. Twenty minutes, maybe? I am a ridiculously fast typer.

Never once did I think for a second that I could out duel you in this forum ...

Despite what many here seem to think, I don't see these discussions as "duels". Further, someone's depth of knowledge and even their level of intelligence means nothing if they are arguing the wrong side of an issue. I've had people tell me I'm a proficient debater, and they mean it as a sincere compliment. The fact is, I am not a proficient debater. Competent, perhaps -- but no more than that. A proficient debater can argue both sides of an opposing viewpoint with equal success. I can't do that. I could wrack my brains for days trying to craft a convincing argument for Socialism, for example, and come up blank. My only solace is that no one else has come up with one either.

Far from being flattered at being called a good debater, it bothers the hell out of me. Why? Because when someone sees his notions go down in flames at the hands of someone pigeonholed as a good debater, he seldom bothers to re-examine his premises. He just shakes his head (either angrily or in grudging admiration) and goes on believing what he believed before the discussion occurred. "I didn't lose because my beliefs are wrong, it's just that he's got a better command of the language than I do. Flashy rhetorical tricks, nothing more," as if I had just demonstrated some particularly clever conjuring trick or something equally entertaining but irrelevant to anything that matters.

IMO, here lies the problem though; the US goverment believes it is following the only path possible, there are no alternatives. I disagree. I believe that there is a path to US prosperity and security that does not involve violence and war...

There may be such a path. You can't think of one, though, and neither can I. There are times when a nation must war against those who would war against it. Some believe the recent invasions of Afghanistan and/or Iraq represent one (or two) of those times. Others don't. But to say there is never a time is to ignore reality.

As I have stated here on several occasions, even at this late date I remain unconvinced it was correct for the US, the UK, Spain, Australia, Italy et al to have used military action to oust Hussein at this time. Certainly the rest of the world had no qualms about leaving the Iraqis to their fate. Maybe they were correct to wash their hands of the whole mess. It was only Iraqis being killed, after all (at least since 1991), and killed by their own sovereign government at that. Too bad, so sad, not our problem.

But aren't these things as American as it gets? Of course they are, America wrote the book on them.

I'd have a hard time thinking of many nations where there is no greed, violence, or history of warfare. Is it not more accurate to ask "aren't these things as human as it gets"?

A peaceful planet is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination and I know this. I have almost come to accept it but I must tell you, it is not easy.

No, it's not.

I believe the future for our children and grandchildren is not a bright one.

This makes you no different from most of humanity throughout most of recorded history.

Because where does all of this thirst for money and power end? Seriously, what is the final outcome? Are we going to suddenly wake up one day in the future with a hellbent desire for LESS money and power?

Unlikely. However, some want money and power, some want money or power, and a few (a very few) want neither. This too is nothing new.

So again I ask you: where does it end? I would love to hear your opinion on this.

You would? Okay then -- let me preface my answer with a couple observations:

It is a peculiar conceit of the chattering classes who inhabit the ivory towers of our time (and I am definitely not saying you are one of them) that we can do without money. We can't. Likewise, in a world full of predators (and even outright loonies), to renounce power is foolish. Those with no power are prey.

It is another peculiar conceit of these same self-styled intellectuals that all violent people are reasonable -- that there is always some way to reason with anyone, that there is always some way to avoid the use of force. This is a misapprehension of reality so blatant that only an intellectual could believe it. The Osama bin Ladens and Saddam Husseins and Yasser Arafats (to name but three -- I realize other posters could expand on the list) of the world cannot be reasoned with. Further, they need not be reasoned with. The only proper thing to do with people like that is to kill them. They have demonstrated unmistakably on so many occasions that their preferred method of interaction with other humans is through force. It is therefore just and appropriate that their own preferred method be used whenever dealing with them. 'Who lives by the sword shall die by it".

I normally try very hard to see the other person's point of view, but to me this is so self-evident a truth I must admit I gave up trying to change my mind about it years ago. I keep hoping to hear a new argument to show me wrong. Who knows -- it may happen some day, perhaps even in this very forum.

So... where will it end? Let's take the points one by one:

The quest for money ("greed", if you prefer) will end when technology is sufficiently advanced that every human's every need and want can be fulfilled by robots or nanoreplicators or something similar -- non-human producers of goods and providers of services so cheap and universally available that no human is required to provide for his own wants by his own effort. Until that time, the current laws of nature will continue to apply -- specifically that the existence of humans is maintained by productive human effort. The current battle between opposing socio-political systems boils down to -- whose effort should support whose existence?

The quest for power will end when technology is sufficiently advanced that every human can be issued at birth a "protector drone" or something similar. Imagine a little gizmo the size of a grape which hovers over your head at all times. Whenever another human attempts to initiate force against you, the drone zaps him with a stunner, knocking him out for five minutes or so. Until that time, the current laws of nature will continue to apply -- those too powerless to protect themselves are at risk of being harmed unless they can persuade others more powerful to protect them.

Until technology reaches the stage where robotic producers and protector drones are everywhere, the next best thing is for the people of every country to demand (and settle for nothing less) a government which will leave them free to attempt to provide for their own needs while protecting them from those who would prevent them from making that attempt. The problems we face today stem from the sad fact that not enough people are insisting on that. Until they do, not a lot will change.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: lysergic]
    #1950303 - 09/25/03 02:32 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe if we tell these other nations that we are cutting off all humanitarian aide to them (Russia), and demanding payment of all loans owed (France, Germany, Russia),




I dont think the US would have to balls to do that. It might tempt all the countries you owe TRILLIONS to to demand payment as well and then you would be truly fucked.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1950353 - 09/25/03 03:25 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I thinks its interesting how Russia have agreed to support a new resolution for more international support.
But will not pledge any troops, or any funds (not suprising really...)
And what do they get for their arduous work and tireless efforts....
Some lucrative contracts, im sure if we chuck enough of them France's way they'll be a little more supportive too.

Now there's a sure fire way of gaining support from the UNSC....


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


Edited by st0nedphucker (09/25/03 03:26 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1950468 - 09/25/03 05:50 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

So you are starting to catch on then are you? The Yanks wont be tossing any lucrative contracts to anyone because they went in there to make sure they get the pick of them...or was it to free the Iraqi people?  :smirk: 


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1950962 - 09/25/03 12:05 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, we are spending over 150 billion to make a couple billion. <Tard voice>That makes sense!</Tard voice>


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1950968 - 09/25/03 12:07 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

The difference is that the billions that are being spent are being paid for by the tax payers...the billions that are being made will be lining the pockets of Bush and Cheney's oil buddies...make sense now?


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1950982 - 09/25/03 12:10 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yes.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1951012 - 09/25/03 12:16 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Not really. Especially considering the Halliburton contract has been put up for bid for no reason other than to appease people like yourself.


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General Interest >> Political Discussion

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