Home | Community | Message Board


High Mountain Compost
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

PhytoExtractum Shop: Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder

Jump to first unread post. Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,256
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 9 months, 24 days
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1944995 - 09/23/03 03:44 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

you're from canada. why does this concern you?



ummm....because this is the political forum, and the last time I checked I was still allowed to voice an opinion.

Quote:

it's not as though canadian dollars are being spent on this or canadian troops are being put in harms way.


Thank god...the last time we tried to help the U.S. out we got bombed by 'em....with no repercussions.

Quote:

as for this "oh, poor iraqis" crap... enough already. they just got their psycho dictator family ousted for them.



..only to be ruled by another Psycho from the U.S.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 16 days
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1945014 - 09/23/03 03:49 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"oh, poor iraqis" crap... enough already. they just got their psycho dictator family ousted for them.




Wouldnt you say the way the US have attacked Iraq without justiication is initiating force against the Iraqi people and impinging on their free will?



--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1945035 - 09/23/03 03:55 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

you're from canada. why does this concern you?

it's not as though canadian dollars are being spent on this or canadian troops are being put in harms way.


the Iraqis can say the same thing to us:

"you're from America. why does this concern you?

it's not as though Americans are being killed by our dictator and buried in our mass graves.

can't you give us a chance to take care of our own problems?
you do believe in self-determination don't you?"



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1945050 - 09/23/03 03:58 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Self determination is all well and good. Ask the Shiites how that worked out for them.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1945063 - 09/23/03 04:01 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

what the hell are you talking about?
so, because the Shiites couldn't excercise their self determination, we have to do it for them? is that how it works? kind of self-defeating isn't it?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1945070 - 09/23/03 04:03 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

No not really. When you try to revolt against a brutal dictator and his cousin burns thousands of you alive, it makes it kind of difficult. The people of Iraq had no hope of overthrowing Saddam. They tried and he slaughtered them for it.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1945077 - 09/23/03 04:06 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

so what's your point? there are millions of people in the world who live under dictators with no hope of overthrowing them. it doesn't mean we should do it for them.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1945080 - 09/23/03 04:08 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I think it does.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 16 days
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1945086 - 09/23/03 04:10 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

So now the reasons for war you are giving are a wish to liberate the Iraqi's and because the US was feeling a little on edge..

Im araid that these are not valid reasons to go to war.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1945138 - 09/23/03 04:25 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

There were many reasons, and we have discussed them all before. I didn't decide to do anything so whatever. Can we please get back to the President at the UN? What does everyone think about the proposed resolution, and the French opinion for example?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,256
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 9 months, 24 days
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1945162 - 09/23/03 04:32 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Obviously the U.S. is not going to give up control of Iraq any time soon...having said that...I think it's wrong for them to try and push Democracy on a country that is clearly opposed to it. The notion that Democracy is good for all nations is ridiculous...

I agree that control should be given to the Iraqi people as soon as possible and let them decide for themselves how they want to run their own country...The U.S. said they wanted to depose Hussein and that's all...(sure)...so fine, they did that...now get out.

The only support if any that should be provided is financial...although they wouldn't even need that once they have control of their own oil again.



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDava
journeyman
Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 80
Loc: Belgium
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1945234 - 09/23/03 04:49 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


French opinion for example?




The french opinion is great!
They are right about transferring power to the iraqi's in 6 to 9 months.
Do you all remeber the first month of war? Bush announced that power would be given back asap to the Iraqi's. They had a nice lil timetble for that.
The next month however, bush announced they wouldnt follow the timetable anymore and the tranfer of power was on hold (forever?).
Now dont start complaining about unforeseen problems with 'elements who support the old dictator and such'. You should have thought about that WHEN you invaded iraq. The situation now doesnt only look like an occupation, it is one.

I also dont like the cynic notes of Bush, things like 'The UN is only good at writing laws' wont help him getting UN approval.
I support a french veto, altough it seems they will abstain, however, i think there will be a domino effect, the french will abstain, the russians also expressed the intention to abstain and i think China will also abstain.
Pakistan, India and other countries wont be turned over to send money and/or troops when the bigger countries dont support bush's proposal.

Quote:


But he said France would vote for the resolution only if it included a deadline for the transfer of sovereignty and a timetable for the switch of power, as well as a "key role" for the United Nations.





I think this is a very reasonable proposal by the french.




--------------------
"These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..."
- Timothy Leary


Edited by Dava (09/23/03 04:52 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Dava]
    #1945368 - 09/23/03 05:29 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Here's the full text of Bush's speech, in case it hasn't already been posted.

Here are a few corkers:

"Events during the past two years have set before us the clearest of divides: ... between those who work for peaceful change, and those who adopt the methods of gangsters; between those who honor the rights of man, and those who deliberately take the lives of men and women and children without mercy or shame."

Was this on video? Did he say this with a straight face?

"...because a coalition of nations acted to defend the peace, and the credibility of the United Nations, Iraq is free..."

Get your wallets out everyone, Bush defied the UN in order to defend it's credibility!

"Across the world, nations are more secure because an ally of terror has fallen."

Really?

"We are dedicated to the defense of our collective security, and to the advance of human rights."

4 words: Guantanamo Bay, PATRIOT Act.

"The primary goal of our coalition in Iraq is self-government for the people of Iraq, reached by orderly and democratic process. This process must unfold according to the needs of Iraqis, neither hurried, nor delayed by the wishes of other parties."

I guess that's why the US wants to privatise Iraq, you know, cos it's in the best interests of the Iraqi people for foreign companies to own all of their services.

Iraq now has a Governing Council, the first truly representative institution in that country. Iraq's new leaders are showing the openness and tolerance that democracy requires, and they're also showing courage. Yet every young democracy needs the help of friends."

aah the irony, this 'truly representative' council that was elected by the Iraqi people...I mean hand picked by the Americans.

This guy is a master of doublespeak.




--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Edame]
    #1945415 - 09/23/03 05:43 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Everything you posted that he sad made sense to me. I guess I just am not as good a smart ass as you though. :wink:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1945543 - 09/23/03 06:17 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

That's pinko commie peacenik to you. :grin:

I'm not the only one who seems to think Bush's speech was a load of horseshit (and I love that headline).
http://slate.msn.com/id/2088799/

Quote:

Bush to World: Drop Dead!
The president lays an egg at the U.N.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Tuesday, September 23, 2003, at 2:23 PM PT

Has an American president ever delivered such a bafflingly impertinent speech before the General Assembly as the one George W. Bush gave this morning?

Here were the world's foreign ministers and heads of state, anxiously awaiting some sign of an American concession to realism?even the sketchiest outline of a plan to share not just the burden but the power of postwar occupation in Iraq. And Bush gave them nothing, in some ways less than nothing.

In the few seconds he devoted to that subject, he cited only three areas in which the role of the United Nations (or any other nations) should be expanded: writing an Iraqi constitution, training a new corps of civil servants, and supervising elections. None of these notions is new.

Otherwise, Bush's message can be summarized as follows: The U.S.-led occupation authority is doing good work in Iraq; you should come help us; if you don't, you're on the side of the terrorists.

The speech seemed cobbled from the catchphrases of last year's playbook, as if Bush were trying to replicate the success of his previous appearance before the General Assembly?his September 2002 speech, which roused the Security Council to warn Saddam Hussein of "serious consequences"?without showing the slightest recognition that the old words have grown stale and sour.

Bush dredged out the familiar formula?weapons of mass destruction plus terrorism equals the enemy in Iraq?forgetting, or perhaps not caring, that it didn't persuade the United Nations back in November, when Saddam was still in power, and couldn't hope to win backers now.

He described the guerrilla war, still ongoing, as a battle against "terrorists and holdouts of the previous regime"?ignoring a recent finding of the U.S. intelligence community that the main, and most rapidly growing, threat these days comes from ordinary Iraqis, resentful of the occupation.

He laid out the context of the battle as a contest between "those who work for peaceful change and those who adopt the methods of gangsters." Yet it is hard to see how Bush's pre-emptive-war doctrine fits the former category, and it's painful to observe that many Iraqis would say the U.S. occupation?whose soldiers have pounded down so many doors in the middle of the night?fits the latter.

He acknowledged no mistakes, either in the intelligence that preceded the war or in the planning (or lack thereof) that followed it.

He did acknowledge that "some of the sovereign nations of this assembly disagreed" with his decision to go to war, but added that it is time to move on. "Every young democracy needs the help of friends," he said. "All nations of goodwill should step forward and provide that support."

He painted the United States as following the true principles of the U.N. charter, which call on all nations to "stand with the people of Afghanistan and Iraq," as they build freedom. As for a timetable for turning over power, he said only that the process should be "neither hurried nor delayed."

"The United States of America is committed to the U.N.," Bush added, "by giving meaning to its ideals"?but not, apparently, by sharing authority with its constituents.

Bush spent the remainder of the speech exhorting his fellow leaders to join forces against nuclear proliferation, AIDS, and the international sex-slave trade. Such sentiments would be inoffensively bromidic in a typical address before the General Assembly. But Bush cheapened the causes by linking them with the unfinished business in Iraq. All of these issues, he said in his conclusion?Iraq, terrorism, and WMD, as well as AIDS and teen sex-slaves?require "urgent attention and moral clarity."

The rest of the world's leaders, who had remained conspicuously silent throughout the speech, greeted its conclusion with, at best, polite applause, which is the most it deserved. By comparison, the droningly convoluted speech that followed, by French President Jacques Chirac, was a model of perspicacity.

One section of Bush's speech is worth very serious note. "Success of a free Iraq," he said, "will be watched and noted throughout the region." A free and democratic Iraq would provide a shining example that could transform the Middle East, and "a transformed Middle East would benefit the entire world."

Bush is absolutely right on this point, which is why he needs to get over his hang-ups about France, the Security Council, and the diplomatic disasters of last November, and to get serious about working out a common solution to the much bigger disaster that looms in Iraq. His speech could, and should, have signaled a new opening. Instead, it seemed to close off every option.
Fred Kaplan writes the "War Stories" column for Slate.


 


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (09/23/03 06:18 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Edame]
    #1945632 - 09/23/03 06:42 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Cangratulations, you found an article on the internet that agrees with you.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1945805 - 09/23/03 07:31 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Wouldnt you say the way the US have attacked Iraq without justiication is initiating force against the Iraqi people and impinging on their free will?

was the force directed against the iraqi people or against their government?

was the ba'ath regime a democratically elected government?

using force against tyrants and thugs who terrorize those inside and outside of their borders is hardly an unjust use of force.

now... america is not the world's government, and we really have no place interfering with another nation's domestic issues, no matter how fucked up they may be. if iraq posed no military threat to the united states, it was a bad call in my opinion to go to war with them....

i'm just sick of hearing the 'no blood for oil!' argument. seriously. unless we're talking about american blood, it's a ridiculous argument.


Edited by mushmaster (09/23/03 07:39 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1945818 - 09/23/03 07:36 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

using force against tyrants and thugs who terrorize those inside and outside of their borders is hardly an unjust use of force.




It is when you go in under false pretenses(WMD's).


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1945859 - 09/23/03 07:49 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

When you try to revolt against a brutal dictator and his cousin burns thousands of you alive, it makes it kind of difficult. The people of Iraq had no hope of overthrowing Saddam.

The people were poor and disempowered by a decade of economic sanctions.



--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Xochitl]
    #1945903 - 09/23/03 08:03 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

The people were poor and disempowered by a decade of economic sanctions.

are you trying to make the case that sanctions kept the iraqi people too poor and weak to rise up against hussein?

... and if you want to talk about the economic impact the sanctions had on the ba'ath government, it might be instructive to examine the total amount spent by the hussein family building and maintaining such things mansions and yachts, or hoarded as cash since they went into effect.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]

PhytoExtractum Shop: Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Scratcher's question Phred 584 6 09/30/03 07:54 AM
by sirreal
* Bush seeks UN support Xlea321 895 6 10/04/02 02:15 PM
by Frog31337
* Most Americans Believe Bush 'Stretched Truth' on Iraq Zahid 575 3 07/03/03 09:04 PM
by Anonymous
* UN bombing in Iraq luvdemshrooms 462 1 08/25/03 02:02 PM
by wingnutx
* Bush PLANS on controlling Iraq and its resources... GabbaDj 431 2 02/13/03 03:40 AM
by Xlea321
* 60% of Brits despise Bush and do not want him in UK mjshroomer 881 13 12/22/03 10:41 AM
by G a n j a
* US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible"
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Edame 5,455 79 08/19/03 08:29 AM
by GernBlanston
* Iraq Lenore 901 2 12/06/01 08:17 PM
by Innvertigo

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
6,158 topic views. 6 members, 0 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic ]
Search this thread:
Edabea
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2020 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.097 seconds spending 0.028 seconds on 17 queries.