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OfflineRonoS
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Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq...
    #1943787 - 09/23/03 09:18 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Source

Last Updated Tue, 23 Sep 2003 7:06:40
NEW YORK - U.S. President George W. Bush is expected to ask the United Nations Tuesday to support the U.S. plan for a steady transition to Iraqi self-government.

Bush will speak at the opening of the 58th UN General Assembly session. He is expected to "stress the international community's opportunity and responsibility to help the people of Iraq and Afghanistan rebuild their countries," National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice said Monday night.
"He will also discuss the many ways the world will benefit from an Iraq and Afghanistan that are free, prosperous, modern and democratic," she said.

Bush may also reveal he has asked the president of the Iraqi Governing Council to prepare a timetable for transition to democracy.

Bush is expected to resist France's proposal to transfer sovereignty over Iraq to the Iraqi people as soon as possible.

Iraq must first write a new constitution and hold elections before the U.S. will cede control, Rice said.

Bush and French President Jacques Chirac will meet Tuesday. Chirac has said his country will not veto a planned UN resolution asking for more troops and financial support.

He said France might offer to train Iraqi police and soldiers but will not contribute any troops.

In a prepared address for Tuesday's opening of the General Assembly, UN Secretary General Kofi Annan urged nations to put aside their views on the Iraq war and unite to ensure stability and democracy in the country.

"Let me reaffirm the great importance I attach to a successful outcome in Iraq," Annan said.

"Subject to security considerations, the United Nations system is prepared to play its full part in working for a satisfactory outcome in Iraq, and to do so as part of an effort by the whole international community."

But Annan criticized the "pre-emptive" attack on Iraq, saying it could set precedents that resulted in a proliferation of the unilateral and lawless use of force, with or without credible justification."


So let me get this straight...Bush defies the U.N. by launching a pre-emptive attack against Iraq, then has the stones to ask for the U.N.'s help once he realizes that the U.S. can't do it alone....What an asshole.



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Edited by Rono (09/23/03 09:20 AM)


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1943794 - 09/23/03 09:23 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Actually, you have not gotten it straight at all. The new resolution would allow member nations to contribute to the rebuilding efforts in Iraq. It also asks the governing council, the Iraqis themselves, to come up with a timeline for creating a Constitution, and holding elections. The French 'proposal' is completely assinine. They want to turn over control of the country to a non-existant government.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1943797 - 09/23/03 09:26 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Indeed.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1943801 - 09/23/03 09:28 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Okay...then please answer the following questions yes or no

Did Bush defy the U.N. and launch a pre-emptive strike against Iraq?
Is Bush now asking for help from the U.N. to help rebuild Iraq?

Seems pretty clear cut to me...


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1943814 - 09/23/03 09:32 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

He's asking the rest of the world to participate in stabilizing Iraq, and subsequently the region. Or thats how its supposed to work.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1943816 - 09/23/03 09:33 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I understand that...and of course the rest of the world will help. But my point is that why is he now asking for the support of the U.N. if he wanted nothing to do with them when he attacked Iraq?


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1943825 - 09/23/03 09:40 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

He did want something to do with the UN. That is why he went to them in the first place. After 1441 he decided, along with the rest of the Coalition, that action had to be taken against Saddam, and that the UN was never going to take that action. I think a lot of Americans, including myself, got really pissed at the UN because of that. I don't think the President ever called for it to be disbanded or anything like that though. He has said all along that the UN has an important role to play in Iraq. Yesterday he said that he would like to see the UN help the Iraqis create their Constitution, and supervise elections. I think that is a great idea personally. It would help give the new government worldwide legitimacy.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1943844 - 09/23/03 09:50 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

So did he or did he not defy the U.N.?...yes or no.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1943855 - 09/23/03 09:53 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Of course he did. Are you saying that we should never work with the UN again because of one difference in opinion though? That wouldn't be very productive would it?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1943871 - 09/23/03 10:02 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

No...I'm saying that Bush is only supportive of the U.N. when it serves his needs. Would you disagree with that statement?


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Edited by Rono (09/23/03 11:18 AM)


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1943895 - 09/23/03 10:12 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I'd agree with that,
doesn't mean anything tho, for anybody to do something there has to be an incentive.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1943898 - 09/23/03 10:15 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You don't find his actions somewhat hipocritical? the U.N now has to funnel it's resources into cleaning up a mess that it was against in the first place....


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Edited by Rono (09/23/03 10:16 AM)


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1943909 - 09/23/03 10:21 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

It depends what way you look at it. Bush went to war without UN support which, in a way, undermined the authority (if they ever had any that is...) UN.
Now the UN has a chance to help restore freedom and independance to Iraq, IMO Bush shouldn't have to ask the UN should do its job for once...


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1943933 - 09/23/03 10:33 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Wage wars of aggression against helpless countries - get treated like an international pariah.

That's the treatment Bush dished out to Iraq, let him taste some of the same. Right now it's time for sanctions against the US, not time for helping Bush out of the hole he's in.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1944008 - 09/23/03 11:06 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Wage wars of aggression against helpless countries - get treated like an international pariah.

That's the treatment Bush dished out to Iraq, let him taste some of the same. Right now it's time for sanctions against the US, not time for helping Bush out of the hole he's in.





It was such a horrific thing to rid Iraq of Saddam. They were so much better off being slaughtered by the thousands. That is ridiculous.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1944016 - 09/23/03 11:09 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

no-one is saying Saddam was a great guy...and this isn't about Saddam..it's about Bush being a hipocrite.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1944046 - 09/23/03 11:19 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Alex is acting like the Iraqis are worse off than they were. The enire issue is about Saddam to begin with. You can call Bush a hipocrite until the cows come home Rondo. When the resolution passes, Iraq will be better off for it. I think he should be commended for going back to the UN personally. I also think that your position is based purely on hatred for Bush. If it was a left wing President doing the same thing would you feel the same way?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1944092 - 09/23/03 11:34 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yes I would...many of you need to seriously get past the assumption that I only critisize Bush because he is "right wing"....when in fact I only critisize him for his actions. I have stated many times that I dislike the Republicans just as much as the Democrats....for some reason anytime that someone critisizes Bush they are automatically branded a "commie"..many of you need to get past this.
Why do you suppose that Anti-American sentiment is at an all time high?
Are you so arrogant to think that it's only jealousy?

Do you think that it might actually have something to do with the way Bush is dealing with the rest of the world, and his "you're either with us or against us" mentality?


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1944122 - 09/23/03 11:44 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

The 'with us or against us' doctrine has to do with terrorism and that is it. What other position could a country have anyway?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1944131 - 09/23/03 11:46 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Canada did not go along with the Iraq war...are they now an enemy of the U.S.?...is Mexico? France? Germany? Russia?...etc...


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Edited by Rono (09/23/03 11:49 AM)


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1944172 - 09/23/03 11:57 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Going along with the war is not the same thing as harboring terrorists. That is the distinction. If you help the terrorist, your ass is grass. We never said the Swiss had to come fight with their little knives, or we would bomb them.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1944181 - 09/23/03 11:59 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

How was Iraq related to terrorism?...


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1944277 - 09/23/03 12:21 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I am not even going to answer that question. The same argument has happened time, and time again in this forum. Saddam's ties to terrorism are obvious.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1944285 - 09/23/03 12:23 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Does that mean that you are amoung the majority of Americans who think that Iraq had something to do with 9-11?


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1944291 - 09/23/03 12:25 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Not necessarily. I think that there is no proof of it yet. In the future there may or may not be. In case you did not know this Al Qeada is not the only terrorist organization in the world. 9-11 is not the only terrorist attack in world history either.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1944309 - 09/23/03 12:29 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You're right. Remember the contras?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1944321 - 09/23/03 12:32 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Al Qeada is not the only terrorist organization in the world.




Absolutely correct...but do you really want to go there?


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1944333 - 09/23/03 12:34 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I will go there all day long. I am not saying we have never made mistakes guys. I am saying that inaction is the worst possible thing we can all do.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1944336 - 09/23/03 12:35 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

"mistakes"? WTF? That's like Ted Bundy saying he made a "mistake".


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1944340 - 09/23/03 12:36 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, OK Alex. God I wish we would just close are fucking borders and let the rest of the world go fuck off and die sometimes.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1944428 - 09/23/03 01:06 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I'm sure there are many countries that wish the same thing...


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1944558 - 09/23/03 01:42 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Sure. They wish it until they need some free American money, or help repelling an agressor.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1944609 - 09/23/03 01:56 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Agressors such as the U.S. itself?...


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1944625 - 09/23/03 01:58 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, thats it. :rolleyes:


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1944795 - 09/23/03 02:38 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Let me ask you this then...which is the last country that you heard of that has conducted a pre-emptive strike against another sovereign nation?...


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1944809 - 09/23/03 02:44 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I haven't. Let's look at this another way.

Is the world a better place without Saddam running Iraq? Are Iraqis better off without him?


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1944834 - 09/23/03 02:51 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
I haven't. Let's look at this another way.

Is the world a better place without Saddam running Iraq? Are Iraqis better off without him?




Maybe you haven't been watching the news...but recently the U.S. launched a pre-emptive strike against Iraq (a sovereign nation) under the claim of imminent danger from WMD's that have never been found.

Personally I think the world would be a better place if Bush wasn't in power, and the world would better off without him. Does that give me the responsiblity to put a bullet in his head?


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Edited by Rono (09/23/03 02:52 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1944901 - 09/23/03 03:11 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Let me ask you this then...which is the last country that you heard of that has conducted a pre-emptive strike against another sovereign nation?...



Any country which has ever invaded another has conducted a pre-emptive strike.

You don't really need a list do you?


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1944916 - 09/23/03 03:18 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I asked what the last country was...not for a list.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1944954 - 09/23/03 03:31 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

you're from canada. why does this concern you?

it's not as though canadian dollars are being spent on this or canadian troops are being put in harms way.

as for this "oh, poor iraqis" crap... enough already. they just got their psycho dictator family ousted for them.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1944995 - 09/23/03 03:44 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

you're from canada. why does this concern you?



ummm....because this is the political forum, and the last time I checked I was still allowed to voice an opinion.

Quote:

it's not as though canadian dollars are being spent on this or canadian troops are being put in harms way.


Thank god...the last time we tried to help the U.S. out we got bombed by 'em....with no repercussions.

Quote:

as for this "oh, poor iraqis" crap... enough already. they just got their psycho dictator family ousted for them.



..only to be ruled by another Psycho from the U.S.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1945014 - 09/23/03 03:49 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"oh, poor iraqis" crap... enough already. they just got their psycho dictator family ousted for them.




Wouldnt you say the way the US have attacked Iraq without justiication is initiating force against the Iraqi people and impinging on their free will?



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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1945035 - 09/23/03 03:55 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

you're from canada. why does this concern you?

it's not as though canadian dollars are being spent on this or canadian troops are being put in harms way.


the Iraqis can say the same thing to us:

"you're from America. why does this concern you?

it's not as though Americans are being killed by our dictator and buried in our mass graves.

can't you give us a chance to take care of our own problems?
you do believe in self-determination don't you?"



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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1945050 - 09/23/03 03:58 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Self determination is all well and good. Ask the Shiites how that worked out for them.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1945063 - 09/23/03 04:01 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

what the hell are you talking about?
so, because the Shiites couldn't excercise their self determination, we have to do it for them? is that how it works? kind of self-defeating isn't it?


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1945070 - 09/23/03 04:03 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

No not really. When you try to revolt against a brutal dictator and his cousin burns thousands of you alive, it makes it kind of difficult. The people of Iraq had no hope of overthrowing Saddam. They tried and he slaughtered them for it.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1945077 - 09/23/03 04:06 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

so what's your point? there are millions of people in the world who live under dictators with no hope of overthrowing them. it doesn't mean we should do it for them.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1945080 - 09/23/03 04:08 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I think it does.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1945086 - 09/23/03 04:10 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

So now the reasons for war you are giving are a wish to liberate the Iraqi's and because the US was feeling a little on edge..

Im araid that these are not valid reasons to go to war.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1945138 - 09/23/03 04:25 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

There were many reasons, and we have discussed them all before. I didn't decide to do anything so whatever. Can we please get back to the President at the UN? What does everyone think about the proposed resolution, and the French opinion for example?


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1945162 - 09/23/03 04:32 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Obviously the U.S. is not going to give up control of Iraq any time soon...having said that...I think it's wrong for them to try and push Democracy on a country that is clearly opposed to it. The notion that Democracy is good for all nations is ridiculous...

I agree that control should be given to the Iraqi people as soon as possible and let them decide for themselves how they want to run their own country...The U.S. said they wanted to depose Hussein and that's all...(sure)...so fine, they did that...now get out.

The only support if any that should be provided is financial...although they wouldn't even need that once they have control of their own oil again.



--------------------
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1945234 - 09/23/03 04:49 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


French opinion for example?




The french opinion is great!
They are right about transferring power to the iraqi's in 6 to 9 months.
Do you all remeber the first month of war? Bush announced that power would be given back asap to the Iraqi's. They had a nice lil timetble for that.
The next month however, bush announced they wouldnt follow the timetable anymore and the tranfer of power was on hold (forever?).
Now dont start complaining about unforeseen problems with 'elements who support the old dictator and such'. You should have thought about that WHEN you invaded iraq. The situation now doesnt only look like an occupation, it is one.

I also dont like the cynic notes of Bush, things like 'The UN is only good at writing laws' wont help him getting UN approval.
I support a french veto, altough it seems they will abstain, however, i think there will be a domino effect, the french will abstain, the russians also expressed the intention to abstain and i think China will also abstain.
Pakistan, India and other countries wont be turned over to send money and/or troops when the bigger countries dont support bush's proposal.

Quote:


But he said France would vote for the resolution only if it included a deadline for the transfer of sovereignty and a timetable for the switch of power, as well as a "key role" for the United Nations.





I think this is a very reasonable proposal by the french.




--------------------
"These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..."
- Timothy Leary


Edited by Dava (09/23/03 04:52 PM)


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Dava]
    #1945368 - 09/23/03 05:29 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Here's the full text of Bush's speech, in case it hasn't already been posted.

Here are a few corkers:

"Events during the past two years have set before us the clearest of divides: ... between those who work for peaceful change, and those who adopt the methods of gangsters; between those who honor the rights of man, and those who deliberately take the lives of men and women and children without mercy or shame."

Was this on video? Did he say this with a straight face?

"...because a coalition of nations acted to defend the peace, and the credibility of the United Nations, Iraq is free..."

Get your wallets out everyone, Bush defied the UN in order to defend it's credibility!

"Across the world, nations are more secure because an ally of terror has fallen."

Really?

"We are dedicated to the defense of our collective security, and to the advance of human rights."

4 words: Guantanamo Bay, PATRIOT Act.

"The primary goal of our coalition in Iraq is self-government for the people of Iraq, reached by orderly and democratic process. This process must unfold according to the needs of Iraqis, neither hurried, nor delayed by the wishes of other parties."

I guess that's why the US wants to privatise Iraq, you know, cos it's in the best interests of the Iraqi people for foreign companies to own all of their services.

Iraq now has a Governing Council, the first truly representative institution in that country. Iraq's new leaders are showing the openness and tolerance that democracy requires, and they're also showing courage. Yet every young democracy needs the help of friends."

aah the irony, this 'truly representative' council that was elected by the Iraqi people...I mean hand picked by the Americans.

This guy is a master of doublespeak.




--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Edame]
    #1945415 - 09/23/03 05:43 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Everything you posted that he sad made sense to me. I guess I just am not as good a smart ass as you though. :wink:


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1945543 - 09/23/03 06:17 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

That's pinko commie peacenik to you. :grin:

I'm not the only one who seems to think Bush's speech was a load of horseshit (and I love that headline).
http://slate.msn.com/id/2088799/

Quote:

Bush to World: Drop Dead!
The president lays an egg at the U.N.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Tuesday, September 23, 2003, at 2:23 PM PT

Has an American president ever delivered such a bafflingly impertinent speech before the General Assembly as the one George W. Bush gave this morning?

Here were the world's foreign ministers and heads of state, anxiously awaiting some sign of an American concession to realism?even the sketchiest outline of a plan to share not just the burden but the power of postwar occupation in Iraq. And Bush gave them nothing, in some ways less than nothing.

In the few seconds he devoted to that subject, he cited only three areas in which the role of the United Nations (or any other nations) should be expanded: writing an Iraqi constitution, training a new corps of civil servants, and supervising elections. None of these notions is new.

Otherwise, Bush's message can be summarized as follows: The U.S.-led occupation authority is doing good work in Iraq; you should come help us; if you don't, you're on the side of the terrorists.

The speech seemed cobbled from the catchphrases of last year's playbook, as if Bush were trying to replicate the success of his previous appearance before the General Assembly?his September 2002 speech, which roused the Security Council to warn Saddam Hussein of "serious consequences"?without showing the slightest recognition that the old words have grown stale and sour.

Bush dredged out the familiar formula?weapons of mass destruction plus terrorism equals the enemy in Iraq?forgetting, or perhaps not caring, that it didn't persuade the United Nations back in November, when Saddam was still in power, and couldn't hope to win backers now.

He described the guerrilla war, still ongoing, as a battle against "terrorists and holdouts of the previous regime"?ignoring a recent finding of the U.S. intelligence community that the main, and most rapidly growing, threat these days comes from ordinary Iraqis, resentful of the occupation.

He laid out the context of the battle as a contest between "those who work for peaceful change and those who adopt the methods of gangsters." Yet it is hard to see how Bush's pre-emptive-war doctrine fits the former category, and it's painful to observe that many Iraqis would say the U.S. occupation?whose soldiers have pounded down so many doors in the middle of the night?fits the latter.

He acknowledged no mistakes, either in the intelligence that preceded the war or in the planning (or lack thereof) that followed it.

He did acknowledge that "some of the sovereign nations of this assembly disagreed" with his decision to go to war, but added that it is time to move on. "Every young democracy needs the help of friends," he said. "All nations of goodwill should step forward and provide that support."

He painted the United States as following the true principles of the U.N. charter, which call on all nations to "stand with the people of Afghanistan and Iraq," as they build freedom. As for a timetable for turning over power, he said only that the process should be "neither hurried nor delayed."

"The United States of America is committed to the U.N.," Bush added, "by giving meaning to its ideals"?but not, apparently, by sharing authority with its constituents.

Bush spent the remainder of the speech exhorting his fellow leaders to join forces against nuclear proliferation, AIDS, and the international sex-slave trade. Such sentiments would be inoffensively bromidic in a typical address before the General Assembly. But Bush cheapened the causes by linking them with the unfinished business in Iraq. All of these issues, he said in his conclusion?Iraq, terrorism, and WMD, as well as AIDS and teen sex-slaves?require "urgent attention and moral clarity."

The rest of the world's leaders, who had remained conspicuously silent throughout the speech, greeted its conclusion with, at best, polite applause, which is the most it deserved. By comparison, the droningly convoluted speech that followed, by French President Jacques Chirac, was a model of perspicacity.

One section of Bush's speech is worth very serious note. "Success of a free Iraq," he said, "will be watched and noted throughout the region." A free and democratic Iraq would provide a shining example that could transform the Middle East, and "a transformed Middle East would benefit the entire world."

Bush is absolutely right on this point, which is why he needs to get over his hang-ups about France, the Security Council, and the diplomatic disasters of last November, and to get serious about working out a common solution to the much bigger disaster that looms in Iraq. His speech could, and should, have signaled a new opening. Instead, it seemed to close off every option.
Fred Kaplan writes the "War Stories" column for Slate.


 


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (09/23/03 06:18 PM)


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Edame]
    #1945632 - 09/23/03 06:42 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Cangratulations, you found an article on the internet that agrees with you.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1945805 - 09/23/03 07:31 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Wouldnt you say the way the US have attacked Iraq without justiication is initiating force against the Iraqi people and impinging on their free will?

was the force directed against the iraqi people or against their government?

was the ba'ath regime a democratically elected government?

using force against tyrants and thugs who terrorize those inside and outside of their borders is hardly an unjust use of force.

now... america is not the world's government, and we really have no place interfering with another nation's domestic issues, no matter how fucked up they may be. if iraq posed no military threat to the united states, it was a bad call in my opinion to go to war with them....

i'm just sick of hearing the 'no blood for oil!' argument. seriously. unless we're talking about american blood, it's a ridiculous argument.


Edited by mushmaster (09/23/03 07:39 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1945818 - 09/23/03 07:36 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

using force against tyrants and thugs who terrorize those inside and outside of their borders is hardly an unjust use of force.




It is when you go in under false pretenses(WMD's).


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1945859 - 09/23/03 07:49 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

When you try to revolt against a brutal dictator and his cousin burns thousands of you alive, it makes it kind of difficult. The people of Iraq had no hope of overthrowing Saddam.

The people were poor and disempowered by a decade of economic sanctions.



--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Xochitl]
    #1945903 - 09/23/03 08:03 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

The people were poor and disempowered by a decade of economic sanctions.

are you trying to make the case that sanctions kept the iraqi people too poor and weak to rise up against hussein?

... and if you want to talk about the economic impact the sanctions had on the ba'ath government, it might be instructive to examine the total amount spent by the hussein family building and maintaining such things mansions and yachts, or hoarded as cash since they went into effect.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1946170 - 09/23/03 09:33 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

shakta,

From what I read of your posts, the meat of your arguement is that this whole war was justified because Saddam is an evil man and he killed lots of his own people and they are better off now than they were before. If this is all you got then you are a victim of your own government's propoganda and you don't even know it. Here's a newsflash for you: human rights attrocities are being committed by evil men in government positions all over the world EVERY SINGLE DAY. And it's nothing new, it's been happening for thousands of years and I see no reason for it to ever stop, it's in our nature. That being said, do you see your government invading other countries around the world because they have people living under brutal dictators? No, of course not. Then why do they have such an interest in the well being of the Iraqis? Hmmm. Let me ask you this: there are approximately 190 countries in the world; are you gonna sit there with a straight face and tell me that of these 190 countries, the ONE that poses the biggest threat to US security and has the most evil regime just HAPPENS to be the country with the second largest recoverable oil reserves on the planet? Nailing those 2/190 odds was a COOINCIDENCE? You really need to look deeper into your governments actions to get a better understanding of the big picture. You must realize that your government insults your intelligence every day with it's simple explanations of it's intentions, goals, and objectives. There is more to this than terrorists and WMDs. The information is out there, you just have to go looking for it with an open mind.

Back to the topic of this thread, I have commented to myself many times in the last week that Bush has some of the biggest balls in modern day history. To stand up and ask for the UN's help in solving his problems caused by a war that it never supported is sickening. And to actually say that it's our RESPONSIBILITY to send our soldiers over there to die for this cause!!?? To make mega-rich American corporations even richer!!?? The topper though is his little remark about it 'being in our best interest' to help rebuild Iraq. In other words, help us out and maybe we'll give ya a little slice of this big fat oil pie we just stole from the window sill. How American to think that you can bribe anyone with cash.

Also, one other thing I want to point out to anyone who believes the US government is on a glorious and righteous crusade to FREE the Islamic people: it will never work. It CAN'T work. The fundamental principles of a democrocy and the fundamental principles of Islam conflict with each other on a large scale. Funny how this little technicality just doesn't get discussed much on FOX News. If the US really believes (of course it doesn't) that the Islamic people are going to sit back and watch their religion be torn apart and taken away from them and not do anything about it then they are dead wrong. Their religion is more important to them than life itself which means that they are willing to die for it. Can you say the same?

This is going to be THE global clash of the 21st century. Unfortunately, this is exactly what the US government wants: more terrorists. Every terrorist act just gives them more public support to go in and do whatever they so desire. Sure terrorism is horrific but always keep in mind: not every country can have trillion dollar defence budgets.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1946400 - 09/23/03 10:57 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Scratcher writes:

Here's a newsflash for you: human rights attrocities are being committed by evil men in government positions all over the world EVERY SINGLE DAY. And it's nothing new, it's been happening for thousands of years and I see no reason for it to ever stop, it's in our nature.

Correct. And free nations have the right, but not the obligation, to come to the aid of those affected by such tyrants. Recently, the US, the UK, Spain, Australia, etc. chose to aid those in Iraq. Perhaps next year Germany and France and Sweden may choose to come to the aid of Rwandans.

That being said, do you see your government invading other countries around the world because they have people living under brutal dictators?

Not since the whole Panama thing, no.

Nailing those 2/190 odds was a COOINCIDENCE?

Here's a few more coincidences -- it was also the only one of 190 post WWII countries to invade two of its neighbors in less than a decade, and lob missiles at a third. It was one of the only two out of 190 countries known to have used chemical weapons during a conflict (the other being Iran). It was the only one of 190 countries to refuse to fulfill (over a twelve year grace period) even a single one of the terms of the conditional surrender agreement signed to prevent it from being overrun and stripped of all weapons.

That's some pretty long odds to overcome. Coincidence?

Also, one other thing I want to point out to anyone who believes the US government is on a glorious and righteous crusade to FREE the Islamic people: it will never work. It CAN'T work. The fundamental principles of a democrocy and the fundamental principles of Islam conflict with each other on a large scale.

Ummm... last time I checked, Turkey was still Muslim, and still a democracy.

Sure terrorism is horrific but always keep in mind: not every country can have trillion dollar defence budgets.

Which country has a trillion dollar defence budget? I thought the US had the world's largest defense budget.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1946544 - 09/23/03 11:49 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Amen Scratcher. Indeed far from being a "threat" Powell said in Feb 2001 that Iraq had been successfully contained and had been unable to produce any WMD. A sentiment Rice echoed in July of the same year.

?We have been able to keep weapons from going into Iraq,? Powell said during a Feb 11, 2001 interview with ?Face the Nation. ?We have been able to keep the sanctions in place to the extent that items that might support weapons of mass destruction development have had some controls on them? it's been quite a success for ten years??

Saddam?s ?forces are about one-third their original size. They don't really possess the capability to attack their neighbors the way they did ten years ago,? Powell said during the meeting with Fischer.

"Containment has been a successful policy, and I think we should make sure that we continue it until such time as Saddam Hussein comes into compliance with the agreements he made at the end of the (Gulf) war.?


Here's Rumsfield lying:

In just sieven short months, beginning as early as February 2001, Bush administration officials said Iraq went from being a threat only to its own people to posing an imminent threat to the world. Indeed, in a Feb. 12, 2001 interview with the Fox News Channel Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said: ?Iraq is probably not a nuclear threat at the present time.?

But Rumsfeld testified before the House Armed Services Committee on Sept. 18, 2002 that Iraq is close to acquiring the materials needed to build a nuclear bomb?




--------------------
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1946554 - 09/23/03 11:51 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I found it interesting that Americans will be partnering (or assisting) in writing a constitution for Iraq. How does this conflict with the belief in religion in conjunction with politics that is the norm for Middle Eastern countries? The infrastructure is having to be rebuilt, but who is involved with implementing it? (If rebuilding is indeed our goal.)



--------------------
"Those sweet excesses I do adore."



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Clover]
    #1946568 - 09/23/03 11:58 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

America has no plans to rebuild anything. Just look at Afghanistan. A government minister there said "We have no money for reconstruction". The puppet dictator installed by the US is too terrified to leave his office without 42 american special forces guards and the country is ruled by savage warlords as bad, if not worse, than the Taliban.

Take all talk of "rebuilding iraq" with a huge pinch of salt.


--------------------
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OfflineZahid
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1946590 - 09/24/03 12:07 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Hamid Karzai himself said not too long ago that he wished the Taliban still had some influence since they did manage to bring some unity to Afghanistan.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Phred]
    #1946721 - 09/24/03 01:16 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Recently, the US, the UK, Spain, Australia, etc. chose to aid those in Iraq



The US choosing to help those in Iraq is like a bank robber slipping a 20 spot into the pocket of the security guard on his way out the door. Seriously, what were they supposed to do, let all the Iraqis die of starvation? That's bad PR, can't do that. Still doesn't change the fact that the US government doesn't give a shit about the Iraqi people and never has. If every single Iraqi disappeared tomorrow Washington would throw a fucking party.

Quote:

Not since the whole Panama thing, no.



If you're refering to the removal of Noriega then I hope you're joking. He was nothing but a pawn. Why is it so hard for some people to believe that the US does what it wants, when it wants, and for it's own interests? EVERYTHING it does is for it's own interests, ignoring this fact and believing that compassion and humanity have anything to do with it is pure ignorance and, I might add, arrogance.

Quote:

Here's a few more coincidences -- it was also the only one of 190 post WWII countries to invade two of its neighbors in less than a decade, and lob missiles at a third. It was one of the only two out of 190 countries known to have used chemical weapons during a conflict (the other being Iran). It was the only one of 190 countries to refuse to fulfill (over a twelve year grace period) even a single one of the terms of the conditional surrender agreement signed to prevent it from being overrun and stripped of all weapons.



All great points but you're missing the bigger point that emcompasses them all: it is the US who has created this environment over the past 50 years. Is it some kind of big secret that the US has given Iraq and Afghanistan billions of dollars in "aid" in the past? Do you actually believe this money was spent on food??? Or how about the arms scandals? Are you telling me that these actions were for anything other than US interests? It has been known for DECADES that the big global showdown at the end of the age of oil was to take place in the middle east so why is it surprising that the US has taken steps to create enemies out of these uncooperative countries?

Quote:

Ummm... last time I checked, Turkey was still Muslim, and still a democracy



A democracy and an 'American style' democracy should never be confused. You and I both know that any democracy set up in a country being occupied by the US will have all of the strings pulled by those in Washington. The Iraqis themselves will not control their oil or, for that matter, their destiny any time soon and only a fool believes otherwise but that is what is being pumped into our heads by pentagon spokesmen on a daily basis via CNN.

Quote:

Which country has a trillion dollar defence budget? I thought the US had the world's largest defense budget.



You're right, what I said insinuated a trillion for one year but I was refering to the build up between the last two wars. I believe the past years budget was around 380 billion. I stand by the point I was making.

pink, I know your knitpick style of debating and to be honest, it's this kind of thing that keeps me from coming here too often, I just don't have the time or energy on most days. The bottom line is you should acknowledge the overall point a person is trying to make instead of always trying to make them look intellectually inferior to you.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1946951 - 09/24/03 03:55 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pink, I know your knitpick style of debating and to be honest, it's this kind of thing that keeps me from coming here too often, I just don't have the time or energy on most days.



Ah, so accuracy and facts mean little to you? Perhaps then it's just as well.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Phred]
    #1946962 - 09/24/03 04:14 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

it was also the only one of 190 post WWII countries to invade two of its neighbors in less than a decade,




Which it did with the blessing of the US on both occasions.

Quote:

It was one of the only two out of 190 countries known to have used chemical weapons during a conflict (the other being Iran).




Weapons supplied in large part by the US.

Quote:

It was the only one of 190 countries to refuse to fulfill (over a twelve year grace period) even a single one of the terms of the conditional surrender agreement signed to prevent it from being overrun and stripped of all weapons.






Colin Powell said that Iraq had been unable to build an army or manufacture wmd for 10 years in 2001. So it would they seem, as suggested by other sources, that Iraq did in fact comply with the surrender agreement to a much higher level than has been suggested by some factions in the US government.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1946986 - 09/24/03 04:43 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

The first two points in reference to the US supporting/supplying they have no real relevance....



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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1946991 - 09/24/03 04:45 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Hows that then?


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1946996 - 09/24/03 04:50 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

They are valid points but I dont see how you can use them to justify your argument. I wont go into to detail but those decisions were not made the current administration....


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1946999 - 09/24/03 04:54 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

What arguement am I trying to justify exactly?


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947007 - 09/24/03 04:59 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Well to me it appeared you were using them to illustrate the current administrations hypocisy therefore they have no relevance.

And on a sidenote why are people starting to spell argument with an e.....


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947035 - 09/24/03 05:17 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Well you might have a point if it werent for the fact the alot of the current administration were involved at a high level with the same administration which gave the ok for Iraq to attack Kuwait and also sold them weapons.

As for "arguement" it was a simple typo.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947057 - 09/24/03 05:28 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Are you referring to Bush snr cronies?


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1947059 - 09/24/03 05:29 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

was the force directed against the iraqi people or against their government?





Both or only government targets would have been hit and only government officials would have been killed.

Quote:

was the ba'ath regime a democratically elected government?





Irrelevant. You cannot attack a sovereign nation for that reason.

Quote:

using force against tyrants and thugs who terrorize those inside and outside of their borders is hardly an unjust use of force.





Hmm. Not convinced by that line of reasoning. However, even if it could be called just was it the most efficient and intelligent means of aiding the Iraqi people?

Quote:

if iraq posed no military threat to the united states, it was a bad call in my opinion to go to war with them....






Seems like it was a very bad call then.

Quote:

i'm just sick of hearing the 'no blood for oil!' argument. seriously. unless we're talking about american blood, it's a ridiculous argument.






Do you honestly think that oil didnt play a major part in the reasons for this war? And why is the argument only not ridiculous if it is american blood we are talking about??


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1947061 - 09/24/03 05:30 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

... and if you want to talk about the economic impact the sanctions had on the ba'ath government, it might be instructive to examine the total amount spent by the hussein family building and maintaining such things mansions and yachts, or hoarded as cash since they went into effect.




Which is exactly why the sanctions were a bad idea.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947070 - 09/24/03 05:41 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Both or only government targets would have been hit and only government officials would have been killed.




Force was targeted at the Iraqi government not the Iraqi people.

Quote:

Irrelevant. You cannot attack a sovereign nation for that reason.




Sadly thats true which is very unfortunate in some cases...

Quote:

Hmm. Not convinced by that line of reasoning. However, even if it could be called just was it the most efficient and intelligent means of aiding the Iraqi people?




In terms of effectivess and speed then it was the most efficient, intelligent decision? I cannot comment on that.

Quote:

Seems like it was a very bad call then.




On the basis of Iraq posing a direct military threat then I would agree.




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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947093 - 09/24/03 06:05 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Bolton. Perle has always been there or there abouts as well.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947098 - 09/24/03 06:11 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Force was targeted at the Iraqi government not the Iraqi people.





splitting hairs and possibly not even true anyway.

Quote:

Sadly thats true which is very unfortunate in some cases...




So you admit the US are guilty of warcrimes?

Quote:

In terms of effectivess and speed then it was the most efficient, intelligent decision? I cannot comment on that.




Hardly. Insurgency against the Iraqi government could have been aided by the West over the last 10 years. We chose not to take that route.

Quote:

On the basis of Iraq posing a direct military threat then I would agree.




If you believe Powell's words in 2001 it would have been hard for Iraq to pose any threat.

I know you supported the War. How do you still justify it?


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947124 - 09/24/03 06:31 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

splitting hairs and possibly not even true anyway.




Mere speculation

Quote:

So you admit the US are guilty of warcrimes?




Personally, no....

Quote:

Hardly. Insurgency against the Iraqi government could have been aided by the West over the last 10 years. We chose not to take that route.




Saddam has dealt with uprisings before there was no guarantee even one aided by the west would suceed.

Quote:


If you believe Powell's words in 2001 it would have been hard for Iraq to pose any threat.




I don't believe Powell's words especially such vacuous statements

Quote:

I know you supported the War. How do you still justify it?




Saddam was a dictator who tortured and starved his own people. Thats good enough justification for me...











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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947148 - 09/24/03 06:50 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

But unfortunately its not good enough justification to start a war which you have already conceeded.

When the US went to the UN to get the UN mandate they focused on the issue of WMDs, not human rights. The whole plight of the Iraqi's is merely a carefully prepared fall back posistion.

Before the war you would have been happy to bang on about WMDs and how all of the libbies would be proved wrong once the war was over etc.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947155 - 09/24/03 06:58 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

But unfortunately its not good enough justification to start a war which you have already conceeded.




I haven't conceeded anything, I said IMO it is justification enough to start a war.

Quote:

When the US went to the UN to get the UN mandate they focused on the issue of WMDs, not human rights. The whole plight of the Iraqi's is merely a carefully prepared fall back posistion.





Again mere speculation with no real basis other than your opinion..

Quote:

Before the war you would have been happy to bang on about WMDs and how all of the libbies would be proved wrong once the war was over etc.




Thats simply an assumption, one that I find that very insulting  :shake:


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947165 - 09/24/03 07:05 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

When the US went to the UN to get the UN mandate they focused on the issue of WMDs, not human rights.




Is not mere speculation. I admit there is no proof that the plight of the Iraqi's was a fall back posistion. But you cannot deny the focus was on WMDs.

Quote:

Thats simply an assumption, one that I find that very insulting





Oh so you never believed a word of the WMD story and never thought it was sufficient justification for war in Iraq? Yeah right.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947175 - 09/24/03 07:13 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Is not mere speculation. I admit there is no proof that the plight of the Iraqi's was a fall back posistion. But you cannot deny the focus was on WMDs.




My statement was in response to your "fall back" comment.

Quote:

Oh so you never believed a word of the WMD story and never thought it was sufficient justification for war in Iraq? Yeah right.




My my aren't we getting petulant.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947195 - 09/24/03 07:29 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

My statement was in response to your "fall back" comment.




So why did you quote my statement about the focus on WMDs in your post? Cheap tactic that.

Quote:

My my aren't we getting petulant.




Is that the best you can come up with? Consider your arguments dismantled. Dont come back without a cogent argument backed up by sources.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947204 - 09/24/03 07:38 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

So why did you quote my statement about the focus on WMDs in your post? Cheap tactic that.




I quoted your entire statement. If you view that to be some form of tactic then you are clearly putting too much thought into something so simple.

Quote:

Is that the best you can come up with? Consider your arguments dismantled. Dont come back without a cogent argument backed up by sources.




You appear to be somewhat delusional. You haven't dismantled anything you have simply spouted your personal opinions. My support of the war was based primarily on a human rights basis, whether or not you believe that to be the case does not concern me or have any bearing on the points raised in this thread.

And as to treat you with the same contempt you have shown me

consider you ramblings dismantled



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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947283 - 09/24/03 08:36 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

So you supported the war solely on a humanitarian basis and werent swayed one little bit by the WMD argument?


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947322 - 09/24/03 09:03 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I see your attempts to find a post that contradicts my previous statement failed :wink:.
After all that we end up right back where we began....

My support of the war was, and still is, based mainly on a humanitarian basis. My use of the word primarily was indicative of that. The possibility that Saddam possessed WMD's was indeed a contributory factor but in no way was it the main one...

BTW, I admire your tanasity somewhat....


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947330 - 09/24/03 09:11 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You dont have any posts in P&L before june this year. If you had been here around March I know you would have been on the WMD band wagon.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947333 - 09/24/03 09:13 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

There there its ok.... *pat* *pat*


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947401 - 09/24/03 09:48 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I see your attempts to find a post that contradicts my previous statement failed

You're a very unusual right-winger then stoned. Pretty much every right-winger on the board was constantly hammering on about Iraq's "thousands of tons" of WMD. The bullshit was literally endless. "Do you want to lay choking from VX gas before you will finally see Saddam is a threat" yada yada.

The same right-wingers who have all gone very quiet on WMD now.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1947475 - 09/24/03 10:24 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting how the UN Secretary General doesn't seem jilted by Bush's refusal to postpone the war. Kofi thinks that the entire UN needs to be in on the rebuilding of Iraq.

Maybe if we tell these other nations that we are cutting off all humanitarian aide to them (Russia), and demanding payment of all loans owed (France, Germany, Russia), and inform them we will be taxing all of t heir goods an import tax of 1500%, maybe they'll come crawling back to us :-)


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1947600 - 09/24/03 11:13 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ah, so accuracy and facts mean little to you? Perhaps then it's just as well.




Funny, I just knew it was only a matter of time till I had you on my ass too.

THIS is my point about knitpicking:

Lets say I make a statement saying that drinking and driving is bad because it kills 1000 people a year in a particular country. Along comes the knitpicker with his Google search engine and he blasts my ignorance because in reality I had my facts mixed up and it was actually only 750 people being killed each year is said country. Sure, he's totally right but does that change the point of my statement??? Is drinking and driving now NOT bad because it's only 750 instead of 1000? This is the knitpicking mentality that I can't stand around here. Certain people here have 'mental giant' syndrome and it gets annoying.

Luvdem, do you see what I'm saying? Was it clear enough? It has nothing to do with facts, it has to do with picking apart a person's ability to convey their thoughts and opinions which noone is perfect at.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1947782 - 09/24/03 12:01 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Scratcher writes:

The US choosing to help those in Iraq is like a bank robber slipping a 20 spot into the pocket of the security guard on his way out the door.

Huh?

Seriously, what were they supposed to do, let all the Iraqis die of starvation? That's bad PR, can't do that.

This potentially "bad PR" didn't faze the UN, did it? How exactly did the UN (or for that matter, any other country) prevent the starvation (and worse) of the Iraqi people?

Still doesn't change the fact that the US government doesn't give a shit about the Iraqi people and never has.

Nor does the UN. Nor do the NGOs and relief agencies bugging out of Iraq at an ever-increasing pace. Nor does France, nor Germany, nor Canada, nor Sweden. At least the US government's version of "not-giving-a-shit" had a positive effect on the Iraqi people. The inaction of everyone else did nothing. In the case of the UN's sanctions, it actually made things worse for the Iraqi people.

Why is it so hard for some people to believe that the US does what it wants, when it wants, and for it's own interests? EVERYTHING it does is for it's own interests, ignoring this fact and believing that compassion and humanity have anything to do with it is pure ignorance and, I might add, arrogance.

Well, DUH! And this makes it different from other countries exactly how? Further, the actions a nation takes in its own interests often benefit others -- i.e. Iraqis. Regardless of which motivations you personally believe led to the ousting of the Ba'athist regime in Iraq, how does this change the fact that the Iraqi people are no longer victims of that regime?

And to believe that compassion and humanity have nothing to do with it is pure ignorance, and, I might add, spiteful.

If every single Iraqi disappeared tomorrow Washington would throw a fucking party.

Oh, please. A little less hysteria, a little more fact, if you can.

All great points but you're missing the bigger point that emcompasses them all: it is the US who has created this environment over the past 50 years. Is it some kind of big secret that the US has given Iraq and Afghanistan billions of dollars in "aid" in the past?

You'd be hard pressed to find a single nation in the developing world to whom the US hasn't given billions of dollars of aid over the past 50 years. What's your point? Interesting how you feel it was the US's assistance of poorer nations through donations of food and money (and in the case of Afghanistan, arms with which to oust Soviet invaders) which "created" this "environment", rather than the rise of fanatical militant Islamism. Why is it that when the US provides aid to a country, everything from then on which goes wrong with that country is the fault of the US. Was the US the only country who provided aid to Afganistan and Iraq? Nope. Do they get blamed for the future actions of the leaders of Afghanistan and Iraq? Nope.

Here's something you might want to do in your spare time -- look up the countries who provided Iraq's armaments, then get back to us about who you think "created this environment".

Do you actually believe this money was spent on food???

In the case of Afghanistan, some of the money was spent on food, yes. In fact, some of it was in the form of actual food rather than dollars. In the case of Iraq, I would be interested in seeing how much aid the US sent to Iraq from 1991 to 2003. In the case of the other dozens and dozens of nations to whom the US gives money, I would like to hear your proposals on how the US is to ensure the money is spent on what it is supposed to be spent on. This is a universal complaint with foreign aid, not limited to Iraq and Afghanistan. If, for example, the government of a recipient country lines the pockets of its top officials with foreign aid money, is the donor country to simply stop providing aid? I would have no problem with that personally, but I'm guessing I'm in a minority, here.

It has been known for DECADES that the big global showdown at the end of the age of oil was to take place in the middle east so why is it surprising that the US has taken steps to create enemies out of these uncooperative countries?

Afghanistan has no oil. And the entire world, not just the US, treated the Taliban's Afghanistan as an outcast. You remember of course that it was recognized by exactly three countries out of 190. And correct me if I am wrong, but haven't we heard ad nauseum in this forum that Hussein's Iraq was the farthest thing from a US enemy and that he was anything but uncooperative -- until he invaded Kuwait, and managed to goad the UN to actually take actions against him?

A democracy and an 'American style' democracy should never be confused.

Neither should ever be confused with Ba'athist Iraq, that's for sure. Nice attempt at a dodge, by the way.

Look, your contention was, "it (democracy) will never work. It CAN'T work. The fundamental principles of a democrocy and the fundamental principles of Islam conflict with each other on a large scale." All I did was point out that it can in fact work -- it can even work without an America there to impose it. I'm sure you didn't deliberately overlook Turkey -- it was an oversight. No biggie.

The Iraqis themselves will not control their oil or, for that matter, their destiny any time soon and only a fool believes otherwise but that is what is being pumped into our heads by pentagon spokesmen on a daily basis via CNN.

Ah. The "argument from intimidation" ploy -- "Only a fool would believe".... "Everyone with a brain can see" ... "All informed people know".... followed by a bald-faced statement with no basis in fact. It is your opinion, unsupported by any evidence, that the US government is lying when they say the Iraqis (rather than Hussein and his relatives) will own their oil and their destiny. If you choose to believe that, fine. That doesn't make those who believe the Iraqis will govern themselves and own their oil reserves fools.

pink, I know your knitpick style of debating and to be honest, it's this kind of thing that keeps me from coming here too often, I just don't have the time or energy on most days.

1) You are of course free to ignore my posts. Others do.
2) Since when is pointing out factual errors "nitpicking"; or adding a few more examples about coincidence?
3) Did I express any unsupported opinions? Nope. Did you? Yup -- quite a few:

In your opinion, shakta is a victim of his own government's propoganda and he doesn't even know it.
In your opinion, democracy will never work in a Muslim country.
In your opinion, for Muslims, their religion is more important to them than life itself which means they are willing to die for it -- lumping peaceful Muslims in with the jihadists.
In your opinion, the US government wants more terrorists.
In your opinion, every terrorist act just gives them more public support to go in and do whatever they so desire -- whatever that may be.

In response, all I did was add to your list of coincidences, provide another instance where the US removed a dictatorial thug, asked which country had a trillion dollar defense budget, and provided an example of a Muslim democracy right next door to Iraq. If you choose to characterize this as "nitpicking", I guess your expression of yet another opinion was to be expected.

The bottom line is you should acknowledge the overall point a person is trying to make...

Why should I acknowledge the overall points you were trying to make when you neglected to support them with anything other than your own arbitrary pronouncements occasionally "bolstered" by incorrect "facts"?

As near as I can tell, the "overall points" you were trying to make are:

- the US government doesn't give a damn about the rights of Iraqis, or even of Americans
- the US government will seize Iraq's oil and keep the Iraqi people subjugated
- no country should ever free the inhabitants of another country from oppression unless they can prove to every other country in the world that their action yields no benefit to them whatsoever
- democracy can never work in an Islamic country
- the US government secretly wants there to be as many terrorists as possible so it can seize control of its own citizenry to prevent them from doing .... what?

Did I miss anything?

...instead of always trying to make them look intellectually inferior to you.

If having someone politely provide factual corrections makes you feel intellectually inferior, you have my sympathy. And by the way, none of the points I brought up indicate any intellectual superiority. They are all points regular readers of this forum know already -- not because we are smarter than average, just because they have been discussed here before. Hell, I even stole most of them from other posters.

By the way, I fully agree with your observation from the first post in this thread, "The information is out there, you just have to go looking for it with an open mind."

The information is indeed out there, and I apologize for offending you by providing some.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Phred]
    #1947828 - 09/24/03 12:11 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

an excellent post.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1947891 - 09/24/03 12:25 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I agree..Scratchers post was excellent... :smirk:


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1947910 - 09/24/03 12:30 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Bravo Scratch!  :thumbup:


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1947926 - 09/24/03 12:37 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

_________________________________________________________
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq...[Re: pinksharkmark]
_________________________________________________________

see. i was talking to pinksharkmark. you see how it says, "[Re:  pinksharkmark ]" in the title of my post?

when you make a post in an existing thread, you have to choose who to reply to. that "Re:" is short for is "regarding". this tells you that my response was regarding pinksharkmark's post, not starter's. if you respond to me, your post will say, "[Re: mushmaster] in the title. isn't this exciting?

see that? it's true what they say. you really do learn something new every day.

edit: here you go...  :smirk:


Edited by mushmaster (09/24/03 12:43 PM)


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1947941 - 09/24/03 12:41 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

no way!..really? thank you so much for telling me how things work around here...perhaps you missed the sarcasm in the post...hence the yellow "smirk" face.



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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1947969 - 09/24/03 12:46 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I think Rono was having a jolly with you mush.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Phred]
    #1948031 - 09/24/03 01:06 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Wow, you spent all morning typing that out just for me?

Listen man, I knew the outcome of this little discussion before I typed the first word. Never once did I think for a second that I could out duel you in this forum because you are obviously a very intelligent person with a mother lode of factual knowledge. My understanding of the world around me cannot compete with yours and I freely admit it. I thought I'd give it a shot though and see what happens. I've been shot down in flames but it was fun while it lasted.

Here's the bottom line: I love the US people just as I love all of humanity. It is the US government that I loathe. Every day I turn on the TV and am sickened by their behavior. LIE after LIE after LIE. But I will admit that if you got GW alone in a room and injected him with truth syrum that he would probably tell you that he honestly does have noble intentions. That he honestly does believe in what he is doing. He has been handed the corrupt and greedy US system and he's dealing with it. IMO, here lies the problem though; the US goverment believes it is following the only path possible, there are no alternatives. I disagree. I believe that there is a path to US prosperity and security that does not involve violence and war and corporate greed. But aren't these things as American as it gets? Of course they are, America wrote the book on them. So in asking the US government to choose a peaceful path is, well, unAmerican. A peaceful planet is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination and I know this. I have almost come to accept it but I must tell you, it is not easy. I believe the future for our children and grandchildren is not a bright one. Because where does all of this thirst for money and power end? Seriously, what is the final outcome? Are we going to suddenly wake up one day in the future with a hellbent desire for LESS money and power? Sounds ridiculous doesn't it; wanting less. So again I ask you: where does it end? I would love to hear your opinion on this.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Phred]
    #1948036 - 09/24/03 01:09 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

PS You should have know I was going to cause you grief, I live just down the street from Rono.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1948048 - 09/24/03 01:12 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Don't be dragging me into your web of commie propaganda and lies... :wink:


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1948069 - 09/24/03 01:18 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

while it's true that acquiring an extensive knowledge of world events and mastery of history may take years, the principles of reason are something you can learn rather quickly, and if you're intelligent, can probably figure out on your own.

you will find that many people here have a decent grasp on history but not on reason. we spend alot less time here discussing concepts than we do current events. it's not just about knowledge, it's about interpretation. your humbleness is commendable, but don't sell yourself short. i'm sure you have the same capacity for reason as pinksharkmark does.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1948337 - 09/24/03 02:58 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

duh!

this thread is classic.

Scratcher is right.

the whole forensics angle in this forum
gets quite tedious at times....


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1948437 - 09/24/03 03:31 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Luvdem, do you see what I'm saying?



Yes, you're saying that because you didn't take the time to be prepared with your arguments that no-one should care. Sorry but it doesn't work that way and does your argument an injustice.




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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1948760 - 09/24/03 04:52 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Enough talk, turn around and drop your pants so I can shove the business end of a pineapple up your ass.

How's THAT for a fancy comeback???


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1948775 - 09/24/03 04:55 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Scratcher said:
Enough talk, turn around and drop your pants so I can shove the business end of a pineapple up your ass.

How's THAT for a fancy comeback???



As lame as the rest of your posts.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1948983 - 09/24/03 05:58 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

sour grapes


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1949878 - 09/24/03 10:22 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

America has no plans to rebuild anything.




No? How come?


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1949954 - 09/24/03 10:55 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Scratcher writes:

Wow, you spent all morning typing that out just for me?

Naw. Twenty minutes, maybe? I am a ridiculously fast typer.

Never once did I think for a second that I could out duel you in this forum ...

Despite what many here seem to think, I don't see these discussions as "duels". Further, someone's depth of knowledge and even their level of intelligence means nothing if they are arguing the wrong side of an issue. I've had people tell me I'm a proficient debater, and they mean it as a sincere compliment. The fact is, I am not a proficient debater. Competent, perhaps -- but no more than that. A proficient debater can argue both sides of an opposing viewpoint with equal success. I can't do that. I could wrack my brains for days trying to craft a convincing argument for Socialism, for example, and come up blank. My only solace is that no one else has come up with one either.

Far from being flattered at being called a good debater, it bothers the hell out of me. Why? Because when someone sees his notions go down in flames at the hands of someone pigeonholed as a good debater, he seldom bothers to re-examine his premises. He just shakes his head (either angrily or in grudging admiration) and goes on believing what he believed before the discussion occurred. "I didn't lose because my beliefs are wrong, it's just that he's got a better command of the language than I do. Flashy rhetorical tricks, nothing more," as if I had just demonstrated some particularly clever conjuring trick or something equally entertaining but irrelevant to anything that matters.

IMO, here lies the problem though; the US goverment believes it is following the only path possible, there are no alternatives. I disagree. I believe that there is a path to US prosperity and security that does not involve violence and war...

There may be such a path. You can't think of one, though, and neither can I. There are times when a nation must war against those who would war against it. Some believe the recent invasions of Afghanistan and/or Iraq represent one (or two) of those times. Others don't. But to say there is never a time is to ignore reality.

As I have stated here on several occasions, even at this late date I remain unconvinced it was correct for the US, the UK, Spain, Australia, Italy et al to have used military action to oust Hussein at this time. Certainly the rest of the world had no qualms about leaving the Iraqis to their fate. Maybe they were correct to wash their hands of the whole mess. It was only Iraqis being killed, after all (at least since 1991), and killed by their own sovereign government at that. Too bad, so sad, not our problem.

But aren't these things as American as it gets? Of course they are, America wrote the book on them.

I'd have a hard time thinking of many nations where there is no greed, violence, or history of warfare. Is it not more accurate to ask "aren't these things as human as it gets"?

A peaceful planet is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination and I know this. I have almost come to accept it but I must tell you, it is not easy.

No, it's not.

I believe the future for our children and grandchildren is not a bright one.

This makes you no different from most of humanity throughout most of recorded history.

Because where does all of this thirst for money and power end? Seriously, what is the final outcome? Are we going to suddenly wake up one day in the future with a hellbent desire for LESS money and power?

Unlikely. However, some want money and power, some want money or power, and a few (a very few) want neither. This too is nothing new.

So again I ask you: where does it end? I would love to hear your opinion on this.

You would? Okay then -- let me preface my answer with a couple observations:

It is a peculiar conceit of the chattering classes who inhabit the ivory towers of our time (and I am definitely not saying you are one of them) that we can do without money. We can't. Likewise, in a world full of predators (and even outright loonies), to renounce power is foolish. Those with no power are prey.

It is another peculiar conceit of these same self-styled intellectuals that all violent people are reasonable -- that there is always some way to reason with anyone, that there is always some way to avoid the use of force. This is a misapprehension of reality so blatant that only an intellectual could believe it. The Osama bin Ladens and Saddam Husseins and Yasser Arafats (to name but three -- I realize other posters could expand on the list) of the world cannot be reasoned with. Further, they need not be reasoned with. The only proper thing to do with people like that is to kill them. They have demonstrated unmistakably on so many occasions that their preferred method of interaction with other humans is through force. It is therefore just and appropriate that their own preferred method be used whenever dealing with them. 'Who lives by the sword shall die by it".

I normally try very hard to see the other person's point of view, but to me this is so self-evident a truth I must admit I gave up trying to change my mind about it years ago. I keep hoping to hear a new argument to show me wrong. Who knows -- it may happen some day, perhaps even in this very forum.

So... where will it end? Let's take the points one by one:

The quest for money ("greed", if you prefer) will end when technology is sufficiently advanced that every human's every need and want can be fulfilled by robots or nanoreplicators or something similar -- non-human producers of goods and providers of services so cheap and universally available that no human is required to provide for his own wants by his own effort. Until that time, the current laws of nature will continue to apply -- specifically that the existence of humans is maintained by productive human effort. The current battle between opposing socio-political systems boils down to -- whose effort should support whose existence?

The quest for power will end when technology is sufficiently advanced that every human can be issued at birth a "protector drone" or something similar. Imagine a little gizmo the size of a grape which hovers over your head at all times. Whenever another human attempts to initiate force against you, the drone zaps him with a stunner, knocking him out for five minutes or so. Until that time, the current laws of nature will continue to apply -- those too powerless to protect themselves are at risk of being harmed unless they can persuade others more powerful to protect them.

Until technology reaches the stage where robotic producers and protector drones are everywhere, the next best thing is for the people of every country to demand (and settle for nothing less) a government which will leave them free to attempt to provide for their own needs while protecting them from those who would prevent them from making that attempt. The problems we face today stem from the sad fact that not enough people are insisting on that. Until they do, not a lot will change.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: lysergic]
    #1950303 - 09/25/03 02:32 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe if we tell these other nations that we are cutting off all humanitarian aide to them (Russia), and demanding payment of all loans owed (France, Germany, Russia),




I dont think the US would have to balls to do that. It might tempt all the countries you owe TRILLIONS to to demand payment as well and then you would be truly fucked.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1950353 - 09/25/03 03:25 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I thinks its interesting how Russia have agreed to support a new resolution for more international support.
But will not pledge any troops, or any funds (not suprising really...)
And what do they get for their arduous work and tireless efforts....
Some lucrative contracts, im sure if we chuck enough of them France's way they'll be a little more supportive too.

Now there's a sure fire way of gaining support from the UNSC....


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


Edited by st0nedphucker (09/25/03 03:26 AM)


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1950468 - 09/25/03 05:50 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

So you are starting to catch on then are you? The Yanks wont be tossing any lucrative contracts to anyone because they went in there to make sure they get the pick of them...or was it to free the Iraqi people?  :smirk: 


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1950962 - 09/25/03 12:05 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, we are spending over 150 billion to make a couple billion. <Tard voice>That makes sense!</Tard voice>


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1950968 - 09/25/03 12:07 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

The difference is that the billions that are being spent are being paid for by the tax payers...the billions that are being made will be lining the pockets of Bush and Cheney's oil buddies...make sense now?


--------------------
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1950982 - 09/25/03 12:10 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yes.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1951012 - 09/25/03 12:16 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Not really. Especially considering the Halliburton contract has been put up for bid for no reason other than to appease people like yourself.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1951031 - 09/25/03 12:20 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

why non-americans care which american companies american taxpayers pay to rebuild iraq is beyond me anyway.

we're rebuilding their infrastructure (you can be sure it'll be better than it was before the war), and footing the bill for it, and people are raising hell on the grounds of which company gets the contract to do it.

amazing.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1951045 - 09/25/03 12:24 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Becuase obviously the majority of Americans don't realize what is happening in their own country...


--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1951057 - 09/25/03 12:27 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

well i'm glad you're concerned. i am too. i really don't care which company gets the contract for it though. what bothers me is that american taxpayers are going to have to foot the bill for this military adventure and its aftermath.


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1951292 - 09/25/03 02:06 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Are we all just ignoring the fact that Kofi Annan SUPPORTS the UN's role in rebuilding? He doesn't seem upset that we went in tehre without "permission", at least not so much that hes going to fuck the Iraqi people over to prove some imaginary point


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1951293 - 09/25/03 02:06 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Double post, sorry :smile:


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


Edited by lysergic (09/25/03 02:13 PM)


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: lysergic]
    #1951332 - 09/25/03 02:22 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Of course the UN is going to help out..what choice do they have?...Let Iraq wither and die?


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1951391 - 09/25/03 02:43 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Ha. That is a good one. If they don't help out we will pay for it as usual.


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1951541 - 09/25/03 03:28 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yes...the American tax payers will pay for it...now aren't you glad Iraq is "liberated"?


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1952253 - 09/25/03 07:27 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

you aren't in the least bit concerned that multimillion
dollar contracts are going, without public bid, to companies
that used to employ our pres and vice pres?

conflicto de interesto, amigo.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: afoaf]
    #1954011 - 09/26/03 10:31 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
you aren't in the least bit concerned that multimillion
dollar contracts are going, without public bid, to companies
that used to employ our pres and vice pres?

conflicto de interesto, amigo.




How about the fact that Haliburton has had the same kind of contract with the government since before Bush was elected?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1954051 - 09/26/03 10:54 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Do you mean when Cheney was working for them?...


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlined33p
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1954057 - 09/26/03 10:57 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Clinton took up the up rear from the boys of enron every sunday at 5:30 est.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1954204 - 09/26/03 11:53 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Do you mean when Cheney was working for them?...




What is your point Rono? Cheney was not part of the government then at all.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: afoaf]
    #1954311 - 09/26/03 12:33 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

No conflict of interest here afoaf. Move along, nothing to see.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1954321 - 09/26/03 12:36 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Quote:

Rono said:
Do you mean when Cheney was working for them?...




What is your point Rono? Cheney was not part of the government then at all.




Please tell me that I don't have to explain it to you...


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1954457 - 09/26/03 01:12 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

No, you do have to explain it to me. Haliburton has had these support contracts with the government since before Bush and CHENEY were ever elected. They have the experience from the first war as well. What is your point exactly?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1954532 - 09/26/03 01:38 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

FYI, Cheney was part of the Bush, Sr. administration as well.


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