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InvisibleScratcher
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Registered: 01/05/00
Posts: 2,323
Loc: eH
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: shakta]
    #1946170 - 09/23/03 09:33 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

shakta,

From what I read of your posts, the meat of your arguement is that this whole war was justified because Saddam is an evil man and he killed lots of his own people and they are better off now than they were before. If this is all you got then you are a victim of your own government's propoganda and you don't even know it. Here's a newsflash for you: human rights attrocities are being committed by evil men in government positions all over the world EVERY SINGLE DAY. And it's nothing new, it's been happening for thousands of years and I see no reason for it to ever stop, it's in our nature. That being said, do you see your government invading other countries around the world because they have people living under brutal dictators? No, of course not. Then why do they have such an interest in the well being of the Iraqis? Hmmm. Let me ask you this: there are approximately 190 countries in the world; are you gonna sit there with a straight face and tell me that of these 190 countries, the ONE that poses the biggest threat to US security and has the most evil regime just HAPPENS to be the country with the second largest recoverable oil reserves on the planet? Nailing those 2/190 odds was a COOINCIDENCE? You really need to look deeper into your governments actions to get a better understanding of the big picture. You must realize that your government insults your intelligence every day with it's simple explanations of it's intentions, goals, and objectives. There is more to this than terrorists and WMDs. The information is out there, you just have to go looking for it with an open mind.

Back to the topic of this thread, I have commented to myself many times in the last week that Bush has some of the biggest balls in modern day history. To stand up and ask for the UN's help in solving his problems caused by a war that it never supported is sickening. And to actually say that it's our RESPONSIBILITY to send our soldiers over there to die for this cause!!?? To make mega-rich American corporations even richer!!?? The topper though is his little remark about it 'being in our best interest' to help rebuild Iraq. In other words, help us out and maybe we'll give ya a little slice of this big fat oil pie we just stole from the window sill. How American to think that you can bribe anyone with cash.

Also, one other thing I want to point out to anyone who believes the US government is on a glorious and righteous crusade to FREE the Islamic people: it will never work. It CAN'T work. The fundamental principles of a democrocy and the fundamental principles of Islam conflict with each other on a large scale. Funny how this little technicality just doesn't get discussed much on FOX News. If the US really believes (of course it doesn't) that the Islamic people are going to sit back and watch their religion be torn apart and taken away from them and not do anything about it then they are dead wrong. Their religion is more important to them than life itself which means that they are willing to die for it. Can you say the same?

This is going to be THE global clash of the 21st century. Unfortunately, this is exactly what the US government wants: more terrorists. Every terrorist act just gives them more public support to go in and do whatever they so desire. Sure terrorism is horrific but always keep in mind: not every country can have trillion dollar defence budgets.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1946400 - 09/23/03 10:57 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Scratcher writes:

Here's a newsflash for you: human rights attrocities are being committed by evil men in government positions all over the world EVERY SINGLE DAY. And it's nothing new, it's been happening for thousands of years and I see no reason for it to ever stop, it's in our nature.

Correct. And free nations have the right, but not the obligation, to come to the aid of those affected by such tyrants. Recently, the US, the UK, Spain, Australia, etc. chose to aid those in Iraq. Perhaps next year Germany and France and Sweden may choose to come to the aid of Rwandans.

That being said, do you see your government invading other countries around the world because they have people living under brutal dictators?

Not since the whole Panama thing, no.

Nailing those 2/190 odds was a COOINCIDENCE?

Here's a few more coincidences -- it was also the only one of 190 post WWII countries to invade two of its neighbors in less than a decade, and lob missiles at a third. It was one of the only two out of 190 countries known to have used chemical weapons during a conflict (the other being Iran). It was the only one of 190 countries to refuse to fulfill (over a twelve year grace period) even a single one of the terms of the conditional surrender agreement signed to prevent it from being overrun and stripped of all weapons.

That's some pretty long odds to overcome. Coincidence?

Also, one other thing I want to point out to anyone who believes the US government is on a glorious and righteous crusade to FREE the Islamic people: it will never work. It CAN'T work. The fundamental principles of a democrocy and the fundamental principles of Islam conflict with each other on a large scale.

Ummm... last time I checked, Turkey was still Muslim, and still a democracy.

Sure terrorism is horrific but always keep in mind: not every country can have trillion dollar defence budgets.

Which country has a trillion dollar defence budget? I thought the US had the world's largest defense budget.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1946544 - 09/23/03 11:49 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Amen Scratcher. Indeed far from being a "threat" Powell said in Feb 2001 that Iraq had been successfully contained and had been unable to produce any WMD. A sentiment Rice echoed in July of the same year.

?We have been able to keep weapons from going into Iraq,? Powell said during a Feb 11, 2001 interview with ?Face the Nation. ?We have been able to keep the sanctions in place to the extent that items that might support weapons of mass destruction development have had some controls on them? it's been quite a success for ten years??

Saddam?s ?forces are about one-third their original size. They don't really possess the capability to attack their neighbors the way they did ten years ago,? Powell said during the meeting with Fischer.

"Containment has been a successful policy, and I think we should make sure that we continue it until such time as Saddam Hussein comes into compliance with the agreements he made at the end of the (Gulf) war.?


Here's Rumsfield lying:

In just sieven short months, beginning as early as February 2001, Bush administration officials said Iraq went from being a threat only to its own people to posing an imminent threat to the world. Indeed, in a Feb. 12, 2001 interview with the Fox News Channel Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said: ?Iraq is probably not a nuclear threat at the present time.?

But Rumsfeld testified before the House Armed Services Committee on Sept. 18, 2002 that Iraq is close to acquiring the materials needed to build a nuclear bomb?




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OfflineClover
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1946554 - 09/23/03 11:51 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I found it interesting that Americans will be partnering (or assisting) in writing a constitution for Iraq. How does this conflict with the belief in religion in conjunction with politics that is the norm for Middle Eastern countries? The infrastructure is having to be rebuilt, but who is involved with implementing it? (If rebuilding is indeed our goal.)



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"Those sweet excesses I do adore."



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Clover]
    #1946568 - 09/23/03 11:58 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

America has no plans to rebuild anything. Just look at Afghanistan. A government minister there said "We have no money for reconstruction". The puppet dictator installed by the US is too terrified to leave his office without 42 american special forces guards and the country is ruled by savage warlords as bad, if not worse, than the Taliban.

Take all talk of "rebuilding iraq" with a huge pinch of salt.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1946590 - 09/24/03 12:07 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Hamid Karzai himself said not too long ago that he wished the Taliban still had some influence since they did manage to bring some unity to Afghanistan.


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InvisibleScratcher
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Phred]
    #1946721 - 09/24/03 01:16 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Recently, the US, the UK, Spain, Australia, etc. chose to aid those in Iraq



The US choosing to help those in Iraq is like a bank robber slipping a 20 spot into the pocket of the security guard on his way out the door. Seriously, what were they supposed to do, let all the Iraqis die of starvation? That's bad PR, can't do that. Still doesn't change the fact that the US government doesn't give a shit about the Iraqi people and never has. If every single Iraqi disappeared tomorrow Washington would throw a fucking party.

Quote:

Not since the whole Panama thing, no.



If you're refering to the removal of Noriega then I hope you're joking. He was nothing but a pawn. Why is it so hard for some people to believe that the US does what it wants, when it wants, and for it's own interests? EVERYTHING it does is for it's own interests, ignoring this fact and believing that compassion and humanity have anything to do with it is pure ignorance and, I might add, arrogance.

Quote:

Here's a few more coincidences -- it was also the only one of 190 post WWII countries to invade two of its neighbors in less than a decade, and lob missiles at a third. It was one of the only two out of 190 countries known to have used chemical weapons during a conflict (the other being Iran). It was the only one of 190 countries to refuse to fulfill (over a twelve year grace period) even a single one of the terms of the conditional surrender agreement signed to prevent it from being overrun and stripped of all weapons.



All great points but you're missing the bigger point that emcompasses them all: it is the US who has created this environment over the past 50 years. Is it some kind of big secret that the US has given Iraq and Afghanistan billions of dollars in "aid" in the past? Do you actually believe this money was spent on food??? Or how about the arms scandals? Are you telling me that these actions were for anything other than US interests? It has been known for DECADES that the big global showdown at the end of the age of oil was to take place in the middle east so why is it surprising that the US has taken steps to create enemies out of these uncooperative countries?

Quote:

Ummm... last time I checked, Turkey was still Muslim, and still a democracy



A democracy and an 'American style' democracy should never be confused. You and I both know that any democracy set up in a country being occupied by the US will have all of the strings pulled by those in Washington. The Iraqis themselves will not control their oil or, for that matter, their destiny any time soon and only a fool believes otherwise but that is what is being pumped into our heads by pentagon spokesmen on a daily basis via CNN.

Quote:

Which country has a trillion dollar defence budget? I thought the US had the world's largest defense budget.



You're right, what I said insinuated a trillion for one year but I was refering to the build up between the last two wars. I believe the past years budget was around 380 billion. I stand by the point I was making.

pink, I know your knitpick style of debating and to be honest, it's this kind of thing that keeps me from coming here too often, I just don't have the time or energy on most days. The bottom line is you should acknowledge the overall point a person is trying to make instead of always trying to make them look intellectually inferior to you.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1946951 - 09/24/03 03:55 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pink, I know your knitpick style of debating and to be honest, it's this kind of thing that keeps me from coming here too often, I just don't have the time or energy on most days.



Ah, so accuracy and facts mean little to you? Perhaps then it's just as well.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Phred]
    #1946962 - 09/24/03 04:14 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

it was also the only one of 190 post WWII countries to invade two of its neighbors in less than a decade,




Which it did with the blessing of the US on both occasions.

Quote:

It was one of the only two out of 190 countries known to have used chemical weapons during a conflict (the other being Iran).




Weapons supplied in large part by the US.

Quote:

It was the only one of 190 countries to refuse to fulfill (over a twelve year grace period) even a single one of the terms of the conditional surrender agreement signed to prevent it from being overrun and stripped of all weapons.






Colin Powell said that Iraq had been unable to build an army or manufacture wmd for 10 years in 2001. So it would they seem, as suggested by other sources, that Iraq did in fact comply with the surrender agreement to a much higher level than has been suggested by some factions in the US government.


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Always Smi2le


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1946986 - 09/24/03 04:43 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

The first two points in reference to the US supporting/supplying they have no real relevance....



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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1946991 - 09/24/03 04:45 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Hows that then?


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1946996 - 09/24/03 04:50 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

They are valid points but I dont see how you can use them to justify your argument. I wont go into to detail but those decisions were not made the current administration....


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1946999 - 09/24/03 04:54 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

What arguement am I trying to justify exactly?


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947007 - 09/24/03 04:59 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Well to me it appeared you were using them to illustrate the current administrations hypocisy therefore they have no relevance.

And on a sidenote why are people starting to spell argument with an e.....


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947035 - 09/24/03 05:17 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Well you might have a point if it werent for the fact the alot of the current administration were involved at a high level with the same administration which gave the ok for Iraq to attack Kuwait and also sold them weapons.

As for "arguement" it was a simple typo.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947057 - 09/24/03 05:28 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Are you referring to Bush snr cronies?


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1947059 - 09/24/03 05:29 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

was the force directed against the iraqi people or against their government?





Both or only government targets would have been hit and only government officials would have been killed.

Quote:

was the ba'ath regime a democratically elected government?





Irrelevant. You cannot attack a sovereign nation for that reason.

Quote:

using force against tyrants and thugs who terrorize those inside and outside of their borders is hardly an unjust use of force.





Hmm. Not convinced by that line of reasoning. However, even if it could be called just was it the most efficient and intelligent means of aiding the Iraqi people?

Quote:

if iraq posed no military threat to the united states, it was a bad call in my opinion to go to war with them....






Seems like it was a very bad call then.

Quote:

i'm just sick of hearing the 'no blood for oil!' argument. seriously. unless we're talking about american blood, it's a ridiculous argument.






Do you honestly think that oil didnt play a major part in the reasons for this war? And why is the argument only not ridiculous if it is american blood we are talking about??


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1947061 - 09/24/03 05:30 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

... and if you want to talk about the economic impact the sanctions had on the ba'ath government, it might be instructive to examine the total amount spent by the hussein family building and maintaining such things mansions and yachts, or hoarded as cash since they went into effect.




Which is exactly why the sanctions were a bad idea.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947070 - 09/24/03 05:41 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Both or only government targets would have been hit and only government officials would have been killed.




Force was targeted at the Iraqi government not the Iraqi people.

Quote:

Irrelevant. You cannot attack a sovereign nation for that reason.




Sadly thats true which is very unfortunate in some cases...

Quote:

Hmm. Not convinced by that line of reasoning. However, even if it could be called just was it the most efficient and intelligent means of aiding the Iraqi people?




In terms of effectivess and speed then it was the most efficient, intelligent decision? I cannot comment on that.

Quote:

Seems like it was a very bad call then.




On the basis of Iraq posing a direct military threat then I would agree.




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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947093 - 09/24/03 06:05 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Bolton. Perle has always been there or there abouts as well.


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