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OfflineZahid
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Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War
    #2052392 - 10/29/03 01:35 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Up to 15,000 people killed in invasion, claims thinktank

Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Wednesday October 29, 2003
The Guardian


As many as 15,000 Iraqis were killed in the first days of America's invasion and occupation of Iraq, a study produced by an independent US thinktank said yesterday. Up to 4,300 of the dead were civilian noncombatants.

The report, by Project on Defence Alternatives, a research institute from Cambridge, Massachussets, offers the most comprehensive account so far of how many Iraqis died.

The toll of Iraq's war dead covered by the report is limited to the early stages of the war, from March 19 when American tanks crossed the Kuwaiti border, to April 20, when US troops had consolidated their hold on Baghdad.

Researchers drew on hospital records, official US military statistics, news reports, and survey methodology to arrive at their figures.

They were also able to make use of two earlier studies on Iraq's war dead from Iraq Body Count, a website which has kept a running total of those killed, and the Campaign for Innocent Victims in Conflict, which has sought to count the dead and injured of the war in order to pursue compensation claims for their families.

The new report, which estimates Iraq's war dead at between 10,800 and 15,100, uses a far more rigorous definition of civilian than the other studies to arrive at a figure of between 3,200 and 4,300 civilian noncombatants.

It breaks down the combat deaths of up to 10,800 Iraqis who fought the American invasion. The figures include regular Iraqi troops, as well as members of the Ba'ath party and other militias.

The killing was concentrated - with heavy casualties at the southern entrances of Baghdad - but as many as 80% of the Iraqi army units survived the war relatively unscathed, in part because troops deserted.

As many as 5,726 Iraqis were killed in the US assault on Baghdad, when the streets of the Iraqi capital were strewn with the bodies of people trying to flee the fighting.

As many as 3,531 - more than half - of the dead in the assault on the capital were noncombatant civilians, according to the report.

Overall in Iraq, the ratio of civilian to military deaths is almost twice as high as it was in the last Gulf war in 1991. The overall toll of the first war was far higher - with estimates of 20,000 Iraqi soldiers and 3,500 civilians killed.

However, Operation Iraqi Freedom, as the US military calls this year's war, has proved far deadlier to Iraqi civilians both in absolute numbers, and in the proportion of noncombatant to military deaths.

The findings defy the reasoning that precision-guided weapons spare civilian lives. According to the author of the study, Carol Conetta, 68% of the munitions used in this war were precision-guided, compared with 6.5 % in 1991.

However, he argued yesterday that his report demonstrated that sophisticated weaponry did not necessarily offer protection to civilians in war zones.

"Many of the recent wars have been fought with the notion of a new type of warfare that produce very low civilian casualties. What we see here is that in fact we don't have that magic bullet," he said.

"In this war in particular we see that improved capabilities in precision attacks have been used to pursue more ambitious objectives rather than achieve lower numbers of civilian dead."

Counting the human cost

Total war dead (Iraq)

Between 10,800 and 15,100, with a midpoint of 12,950

Combatants killed (Iraq)

Between 7,600 and 10,800, with a midpoint of 9,200

Noncombatants killed (Iraq)

Between 3,200 and 4,300, with a midpoint of 3,750

War dead (Baghdad)

Between 4,376 and 5,726, with a midpoint of 5,051

Combatants killed (Baghdad)

Between 2,224 and 3,531, with a midpoint of 2,878

Noncombatants killed (Baghdad)

Between 1,990 and 2,357, with a midpoint of 2,174

? Source: Project on Defence Alternatives research

www.comw.org/pda


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Zahid]
    #2052689 - 10/29/03 03:23 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Wonder how much coverage that will get in the mainstream media...


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Xlea321]
    #2053384 - 10/29/03 12:48 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

3,500 Civilians killed in Gulf War
3,750 Civilians killed in Gulf War II (Using their mid-point value)

Unfortunate, yet unavoidable. Considering some of you have been suggesting the figure is 40,000 this is quite reassuring.

Quote:

Overall in Iraq, the ratio of civilian to military deaths is almost twice as high as it was in the last Gulf war in 1991. The overall toll of the first war was far higher - with estimates of 20,000 Iraqi soldiers and 3,500 civilians killed.




This is open to interpretation, the Iraqi's put up a better fight? Coalition forces were not as effective this time round? Neither???

Quote:

However, Operation Iraqi Freedom, as the US military calls this year's war, has proved far deadlier to Iraqi civilians both in absolute numbers, and in the proportion of noncombatant to military deaths.




LOL, "has proved far deadlier to Iraqi Civilians"...
Perhaps this could have something to do with the fact that the Gulf War was fought in Kuwait and Gulf War II being fought in Iraq?...

Quote:

Wonder how much coverage that will get in the mainstream media...




The Guardian... what do you class as mainstream media then?



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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineBhairabas
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2053976 - 10/29/03 05:02 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Funny how when 4000 civilians die in another country nonone say's anything.. But if Americans die it's the single worsed catastrophe ever seen.. Don't expect anyone to take responsibilty..


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Bhairabas]
    #2053992 - 10/29/03 05:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bhairabas said:
Funny how when 4000 civilians die in another country nonone say's anything.. But if Americans die it's the single worsed catastrophe ever seen.. Don't expect anyone to take responsibilty..



Golly, could it be because the Iraqis died in a war zone (rightly or wrongly, and the Americans died by an act of terrorism when it wasn't expected.

Could it be because the Iraqis died over a period of months while the Americans died in a period of minutes?

Next time you try to compare apples and oranges, make sure they aren't already rotten.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBhairabas
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2054010 - 10/29/03 05:19 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Apple's,orange's?? All I see is people dead.. Maybe their different to you..


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Bhairabas]
    #2054013 - 10/29/03 05:21 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bhairabas said:
Apple's,orange's?? All I see is people dead.. Maybe their different to you..



Weak try but it's not that the people are different, it's the manner in which they died.

Read it again, perhaps you'll get it the second time.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblethescientist
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2054078 - 10/29/03 05:48 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

luvdemshrooms. your posts make me crazy. i cant understand how you possibly support your views. whats your age, ethnic background and education? jus curious.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2054095 - 10/29/03 05:54 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Unfortunate, yet unavoidable.

Don't be silly. The invasion of Iraq was completely avoidable.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: thescientist]
    #2054130 - 10/29/03 06:08 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Are you saying you don't see a difference between 3500 people dying at almost the same time vs the same number dying over several months?

Are you saying you don't see a difference between collateral damage in a war zone vs a terrorist act?

I hope that's not what your saying because if it is... you were crazy long before reading anything I've ever written.

And I come up with my views using a fairly strict interpretation of the constitution, the libertarian party platform, reading, listening, and here's the one several here find to be a foreign concept..... thinking. Add to that a desire to have proof of wrongdoing, a hesitancy to leap to conclusion, a desire for honesty, a love of facts, and a dislike for liars and cheats. I believe in personal responsibility, I have a desire to do the right thing and an expectation that others do the same.


My age? Old enough to know that some of what I believed when young was wrong and that I in fact, did not have all the answers. (a lesson many here need to learn)

Ethnic background? I was born here in America so that would make me a native american.

Edjumakashun? I'm fucking omnipotent so I don kneed know edjumakashun.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2054156 - 10/29/03 06:19 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Are you saying you don't see a difference between 3500 people dying at almost the same time vs the same number dying over several months?

What is the difference? It took the Nazi's years to kill 6 million jews, does the time it takes to kill innocent people really make any difference to them or their families?

Are you saying you don't see a difference between collateral damage in a war zone vs a terrorist act?

So because George Bush sees fit to make Baghdad a "war zone" it's ok to kill civilians there? Sorry, I don't buy it.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: Xlea321]
    #2054172 - 10/29/03 06:25 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What is the difference? It took the Nazi's years to kill 6 million jews, does the time it takes to kill innocent people really make any difference to them or their families?



The difference is (as I've stated before, the time frame, and no.... it doesn't make any difference to the victims or their families. To them, dead is dead. It does however make a difference to most others and to the press.

Rightly or wrongly that's how it is.



Quote:

So because George Bush sees fit to make Baghdad a "war zone" it's ok to kill civilians there? Sorry, I don't buy it.



Since I didn't say it's OK to kill civilians anywhere, there's nothing for you to buy.

Funny how you get worked up over ACCIDENTAL collateral deaths but don't appear to care much about those killed by those cowardly scumbag Palestinian homicide bombers.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineorizon
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2054535 - 10/29/03 08:46 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I'm backin up luvdemshrooms on this one...he knows what hes talking about and has the facts to back it up. I dont want to see anybody die but there is a difference between people dyeing from terrorist acts and people who are accidentally killed in a war zone. The people who attacked the world trade center were deliberately focusing there fire on civilians. Im not at all saying a life here is more important than a life over there...but if the east coast was declared a war zone that staying put or running around in the streets is asking for trouble. I also would like to add that those statistics may be far from the truth. I know that there were Iraqi soldiers dressed up in civilian clothes that drove civilian buses and cars armed with guns or bombs which were used for suicide collisions. I remember watching the news when the US went in and they were saying how hard it was to seperate civilians and soldiers on the battlefield. I remember one incedent where a whole mini-bus was filled with soldiers dressed in civilian clothes...and they used this disguise to get close eneouph to US soldiers to unload there fire. The US didnt even see it coming cause they thought they were just citezens fleeing the city. So how do the people who are counting tally up the numbers that were actually killed? Are the Sadaam supporters armed with guns shooting at US soldiers considered a civilian just because they are not dressed in official Iraqi army uniform?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: orizon]
    #2054570 - 10/29/03 08:59 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I'm backin up luvdemshrooms on this one



DUCK!!!!  :lol:



Quote:

So how do the people who are counting tally up the numbers that were actually killed? Are the Sadaam supporters armed with guns shooting at US soldiers considered a civilian just because they are not dressed in official Iraqi army uniform?



Good questions.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2054579 - 10/29/03 09:06 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Are you saying you don't see a difference between 3500 people dying at almost the same time vs the same number dying over several months?

Oh, I see...it's ok to kill a lot of people if you just spread it out:smirk:


As far as "accidental collateral deaths" goes...

"Smart bombs" aren't that smart and probably don't reduce civilian deaths too much.

How many bombs did the US drop on Baghdad alone in the war? 40,000? 60,000? I stopped counting after the third day of the war.


All this to kill a "dictator", who by definition is not in power by the will of the People. 15,000 Iraqi men and women along with hundreds of American soldiers may have died to cause "regime change".

If your government turned into a dictatorship (just imagine it did, ok) how would you feel when your family members started to die as a result of another country's ideas for "regime change"?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: trendal]
    #2054603 - 10/29/03 09:15 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Oh, I see...it's ok to kill a lot of people if you just spread it out.    :smirk:




*sigh*

You're shitting me. I can't believe this is necessary. Show me where I said it was OK.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2054616 - 10/29/03 09:18 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

It looks like you are trying to justify the deaths of Iraqi civilians because they happened in a war zone during a month's time.

Sorry, that's just what I got from your statements. :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2054969 - 10/29/03 10:46 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"So how do the people who are counting tally up the numbers that were actually killed? Are the Sadaam supporters armed with guns shooting at US soldiers considered a civilian just because they are not dressed in official Iraqi army uniform?"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Good questions."



try reading the article...

The new report, which estimates Iraq's war dead at between 10,800 and 15,100, uses a far more rigorous definition of civilian than the other studies to arrive at a figure of between 3,200 and 4,300 civilian noncombatants.

It breaks down the combat deaths of up to 10,800 Iraqis who fought the American invasion. The figures include regular Iraqi troops, as well as members of the Ba'ath party and other militias.


--------------------
Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #2054982 - 10/29/03 10:48 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

JonnyOnTheSpot said:
It breaks down the combat deaths of up to 10,800 Iraqis who fought the American invasion. The figures include regular Iraqi troops, as well as members of the Ba'ath party and other militias.





Do you think that the baathists keep name and photo records of all their members. There would no way to tell if a dead body wearing civillian clothes is really a civillian.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Study Finds Up to 15,000 Killed in Iraq War [Re: d33p]
    #2054987 - 10/29/03 10:50 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

There would no way to tell if a dead body wearing civillian clothes is really a civillian.



Exactly


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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