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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947098 - 09/24/03 06:11 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Force was targeted at the Iraqi government not the Iraqi people.





splitting hairs and possibly not even true anyway.

Quote:

Sadly thats true which is very unfortunate in some cases...




So you admit the US are guilty of warcrimes?

Quote:

In terms of effectivess and speed then it was the most efficient, intelligent decision? I cannot comment on that.




Hardly. Insurgency against the Iraqi government could have been aided by the West over the last 10 years. We chose not to take that route.

Quote:

On the basis of Iraq posing a direct military threat then I would agree.




If you believe Powell's words in 2001 it would have been hard for Iraq to pose any threat.

I know you supported the War. How do you still justify it?


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947124 - 09/24/03 06:31 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

splitting hairs and possibly not even true anyway.




Mere speculation

Quote:

So you admit the US are guilty of warcrimes?




Personally, no....

Quote:

Hardly. Insurgency against the Iraqi government could have been aided by the West over the last 10 years. We chose not to take that route.




Saddam has dealt with uprisings before there was no guarantee even one aided by the west would suceed.

Quote:


If you believe Powell's words in 2001 it would have been hard for Iraq to pose any threat.




I don't believe Powell's words especially such vacuous statements

Quote:

I know you supported the War. How do you still justify it?




Saddam was a dictator who tortured and starved his own people. Thats good enough justification for me...











--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
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Last seen: 7 months, 16 days
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947148 - 09/24/03 06:50 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

But unfortunately its not good enough justification to start a war which you have already conceeded.

When the US went to the UN to get the UN mandate they focused on the issue of WMDs, not human rights. The whole plight of the Iraqi's is merely a carefully prepared fall back posistion.

Before the war you would have been happy to bang on about WMDs and how all of the libbies would be proved wrong once the war was over etc.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947155 - 09/24/03 06:58 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

But unfortunately its not good enough justification to start a war which you have already conceeded.




I haven't conceeded anything, I said IMO it is justification enough to start a war.

Quote:

When the US went to the UN to get the UN mandate they focused on the issue of WMDs, not human rights. The whole plight of the Iraqi's is merely a carefully prepared fall back posistion.





Again mere speculation with no real basis other than your opinion..

Quote:

Before the war you would have been happy to bang on about WMDs and how all of the libbies would be proved wrong once the war was over etc.




Thats simply an assumption, one that I find that very insulting  :shake:


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947165 - 09/24/03 07:05 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

When the US went to the UN to get the UN mandate they focused on the issue of WMDs, not human rights.




Is not mere speculation. I admit there is no proof that the plight of the Iraqi's was a fall back posistion. But you cannot deny the focus was on WMDs.

Quote:

Thats simply an assumption, one that I find that very insulting





Oh so you never believed a word of the WMD story and never thought it was sufficient justification for war in Iraq? Yeah right.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947175 - 09/24/03 07:13 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Is not mere speculation. I admit there is no proof that the plight of the Iraqi's was a fall back posistion. But you cannot deny the focus was on WMDs.




My statement was in response to your "fall back" comment.

Quote:

Oh so you never believed a word of the WMD story and never thought it was sufficient justification for war in Iraq? Yeah right.




My my aren't we getting petulant.


--------------------
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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947195 - 09/24/03 07:29 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

My statement was in response to your "fall back" comment.




So why did you quote my statement about the focus on WMDs in your post? Cheap tactic that.

Quote:

My my aren't we getting petulant.




Is that the best you can come up with? Consider your arguments dismantled. Dont come back without a cogent argument backed up by sources.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947204 - 09/24/03 07:38 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

So why did you quote my statement about the focus on WMDs in your post? Cheap tactic that.




I quoted your entire statement. If you view that to be some form of tactic then you are clearly putting too much thought into something so simple.

Quote:

Is that the best you can come up with? Consider your arguments dismantled. Dont come back without a cogent argument backed up by sources.




You appear to be somewhat delusional. You haven't dismantled anything you have simply spouted your personal opinions. My support of the war was based primarily on a human rights basis, whether or not you believe that to be the case does not concern me or have any bearing on the points raised in this thread.

And as to treat you with the same contempt you have shown me

consider you ramblings dismantled



--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947283 - 09/24/03 08:36 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

So you supported the war solely on a humanitarian basis and werent swayed one little bit by the WMD argument?


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947322 - 09/24/03 09:03 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I see your attempts to find a post that contradicts my previous statement failed :wink:.
After all that we end up right back where we began....

My support of the war was, and still is, based mainly on a humanitarian basis. My use of the word primarily was indicative of that. The possibility that Saddam possessed WMD's was indeed a contributory factor but in no way was it the main one...

BTW, I admire your tanasity somewhat....


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947330 - 09/24/03 09:11 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You dont have any posts in P&L before june this year. If you had been here around March I know you would have been on the WMD band wagon.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1947333 - 09/24/03 09:13 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

There there its ok.... *pat* *pat*


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1947401 - 09/24/03 09:48 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I see your attempts to find a post that contradicts my previous statement failed

You're a very unusual right-winger then stoned. Pretty much every right-winger on the board was constantly hammering on about Iraq's "thousands of tons" of WMD. The bullshit was literally endless. "Do you want to lay choking from VX gas before you will finally see Saddam is a threat" yada yada.

The same right-wingers who have all gone very quiet on WMD now.


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1947475 - 09/24/03 10:24 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting how the UN Secretary General doesn't seem jilted by Bush's refusal to postpone the war. Kofi thinks that the entire UN needs to be in on the rebuilding of Iraq.

Maybe if we tell these other nations that we are cutting off all humanitarian aide to them (Russia), and demanding payment of all loans owed (France, Germany, Russia), and inform them we will be taxing all of t heir goods an import tax of 1500%, maybe they'll come crawling back to us :-)


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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InvisibleScratcher
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1947600 - 09/24/03 11:13 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ah, so accuracy and facts mean little to you? Perhaps then it's just as well.




Funny, I just knew it was only a matter of time till I had you on my ass too.

THIS is my point about knitpicking:

Lets say I make a statement saying that drinking and driving is bad because it kills 1000 people a year in a particular country. Along comes the knitpicker with his Google search engine and he blasts my ignorance because in reality I had my facts mixed up and it was actually only 750 people being killed each year is said country. Sure, he's totally right but does that change the point of my statement??? Is drinking and driving now NOT bad because it's only 750 instead of 1000? This is the knitpicking mentality that I can't stand around here. Certain people here have 'mental giant' syndrome and it gets annoying.

Luvdem, do you see what I'm saying? Was it clear enough? It has nothing to do with facts, it has to do with picking apart a person's ability to convey their thoughts and opinions which noone is perfect at.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Scratcher]
    #1947782 - 09/24/03 12:01 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Scratcher writes:

The US choosing to help those in Iraq is like a bank robber slipping a 20 spot into the pocket of the security guard on his way out the door.

Huh?

Seriously, what were they supposed to do, let all the Iraqis die of starvation? That's bad PR, can't do that.

This potentially "bad PR" didn't faze the UN, did it? How exactly did the UN (or for that matter, any other country) prevent the starvation (and worse) of the Iraqi people?

Still doesn't change the fact that the US government doesn't give a shit about the Iraqi people and never has.

Nor does the UN. Nor do the NGOs and relief agencies bugging out of Iraq at an ever-increasing pace. Nor does France, nor Germany, nor Canada, nor Sweden. At least the US government's version of "not-giving-a-shit" had a positive effect on the Iraqi people. The inaction of everyone else did nothing. In the case of the UN's sanctions, it actually made things worse for the Iraqi people.

Why is it so hard for some people to believe that the US does what it wants, when it wants, and for it's own interests? EVERYTHING it does is for it's own interests, ignoring this fact and believing that compassion and humanity have anything to do with it is pure ignorance and, I might add, arrogance.

Well, DUH! And this makes it different from other countries exactly how? Further, the actions a nation takes in its own interests often benefit others -- i.e. Iraqis. Regardless of which motivations you personally believe led to the ousting of the Ba'athist regime in Iraq, how does this change the fact that the Iraqi people are no longer victims of that regime?

And to believe that compassion and humanity have nothing to do with it is pure ignorance, and, I might add, spiteful.

If every single Iraqi disappeared tomorrow Washington would throw a fucking party.

Oh, please. A little less hysteria, a little more fact, if you can.

All great points but you're missing the bigger point that emcompasses them all: it is the US who has created this environment over the past 50 years. Is it some kind of big secret that the US has given Iraq and Afghanistan billions of dollars in "aid" in the past?

You'd be hard pressed to find a single nation in the developing world to whom the US hasn't given billions of dollars of aid over the past 50 years. What's your point? Interesting how you feel it was the US's assistance of poorer nations through donations of food and money (and in the case of Afghanistan, arms with which to oust Soviet invaders) which "created" this "environment", rather than the rise of fanatical militant Islamism. Why is it that when the US provides aid to a country, everything from then on which goes wrong with that country is the fault of the US. Was the US the only country who provided aid to Afganistan and Iraq? Nope. Do they get blamed for the future actions of the leaders of Afghanistan and Iraq? Nope.

Here's something you might want to do in your spare time -- look up the countries who provided Iraq's armaments, then get back to us about who you think "created this environment".

Do you actually believe this money was spent on food???

In the case of Afghanistan, some of the money was spent on food, yes. In fact, some of it was in the form of actual food rather than dollars. In the case of Iraq, I would be interested in seeing how much aid the US sent to Iraq from 1991 to 2003. In the case of the other dozens and dozens of nations to whom the US gives money, I would like to hear your proposals on how the US is to ensure the money is spent on what it is supposed to be spent on. This is a universal complaint with foreign aid, not limited to Iraq and Afghanistan. If, for example, the government of a recipient country lines the pockets of its top officials with foreign aid money, is the donor country to simply stop providing aid? I would have no problem with that personally, but I'm guessing I'm in a minority, here.

It has been known for DECADES that the big global showdown at the end of the age of oil was to take place in the middle east so why is it surprising that the US has taken steps to create enemies out of these uncooperative countries?

Afghanistan has no oil. And the entire world, not just the US, treated the Taliban's Afghanistan as an outcast. You remember of course that it was recognized by exactly three countries out of 190. And correct me if I am wrong, but haven't we heard ad nauseum in this forum that Hussein's Iraq was the farthest thing from a US enemy and that he was anything but uncooperative -- until he invaded Kuwait, and managed to goad the UN to actually take actions against him?

A democracy and an 'American style' democracy should never be confused.

Neither should ever be confused with Ba'athist Iraq, that's for sure. Nice attempt at a dodge, by the way.

Look, your contention was, "it (democracy) will never work. It CAN'T work. The fundamental principles of a democrocy and the fundamental principles of Islam conflict with each other on a large scale." All I did was point out that it can in fact work -- it can even work without an America there to impose it. I'm sure you didn't deliberately overlook Turkey -- it was an oversight. No biggie.

The Iraqis themselves will not control their oil or, for that matter, their destiny any time soon and only a fool believes otherwise but that is what is being pumped into our heads by pentagon spokesmen on a daily basis via CNN.

Ah. The "argument from intimidation" ploy -- "Only a fool would believe".... "Everyone with a brain can see" ... "All informed people know".... followed by a bald-faced statement with no basis in fact. It is your opinion, unsupported by any evidence, that the US government is lying when they say the Iraqis (rather than Hussein and his relatives) will own their oil and their destiny. If you choose to believe that, fine. That doesn't make those who believe the Iraqis will govern themselves and own their oil reserves fools.

pink, I know your knitpick style of debating and to be honest, it's this kind of thing that keeps me from coming here too often, I just don't have the time or energy on most days.

1) You are of course free to ignore my posts. Others do.
2) Since when is pointing out factual errors "nitpicking"; or adding a few more examples about coincidence?
3) Did I express any unsupported opinions? Nope. Did you? Yup -- quite a few:

In your opinion, shakta is a victim of his own government's propoganda and he doesn't even know it.
In your opinion, democracy will never work in a Muslim country.
In your opinion, for Muslims, their religion is more important to them than life itself which means they are willing to die for it -- lumping peaceful Muslims in with the jihadists.
In your opinion, the US government wants more terrorists.
In your opinion, every terrorist act just gives them more public support to go in and do whatever they so desire -- whatever that may be.

In response, all I did was add to your list of coincidences, provide another instance where the US removed a dictatorial thug, asked which country had a trillion dollar defense budget, and provided an example of a Muslim democracy right next door to Iraq. If you choose to characterize this as "nitpicking", I guess your expression of yet another opinion was to be expected.

The bottom line is you should acknowledge the overall point a person is trying to make...

Why should I acknowledge the overall points you were trying to make when you neglected to support them with anything other than your own arbitrary pronouncements occasionally "bolstered" by incorrect "facts"?

As near as I can tell, the "overall points" you were trying to make are:

- the US government doesn't give a damn about the rights of Iraqis, or even of Americans
- the US government will seize Iraq's oil and keep the Iraqi people subjugated
- no country should ever free the inhabitants of another country from oppression unless they can prove to every other country in the world that their action yields no benefit to them whatsoever
- democracy can never work in an Islamic country
- the US government secretly wants there to be as many terrorists as possible so it can seize control of its own citizenry to prevent them from doing .... what?

Did I miss anything?

...instead of always trying to make them look intellectually inferior to you.

If having someone politely provide factual corrections makes you feel intellectually inferior, you have my sympathy. And by the way, none of the points I brought up indicate any intellectual superiority. They are all points regular readers of this forum know already -- not because we are smarter than average, just because they have been discussed here before. Hell, I even stole most of them from other posters.

By the way, I fully agree with your observation from the first post in this thread, "The information is out there, you just have to go looking for it with an open mind."

The information is indeed out there, and I apologize for offending you by providing some.

pinky


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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Phred]
    #1947828 - 09/24/03 12:11 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

an excellent post.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: ]
    #1947891 - 09/24/03 12:25 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I agree..Scratchers post was excellent... :smirk:


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1947910 - 09/24/03 12:30 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Bravo Scratch!  :thumbup:


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq... [Re: Rono]
    #1947926 - 09/24/03 12:37 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

_________________________________________________________
Re: Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq...[Re: pinksharkmark]
_________________________________________________________

see. i was talking to pinksharkmark. you see how it says, "[Re:  pinksharkmark ]" in the title of my post?

when you make a post in an existing thread, you have to choose who to reply to. that "Re:" is short for is "regarding". this tells you that my response was regarding pinksharkmark's post, not starter's. if you respond to me, your post will say, "[Re: mushmaster] in the title. isn't this exciting?

see that? it's true what they say. you really do learn something new every day.

edit: here you go...  :smirk:


Edited by mushmaster (09/24/03 12:43 PM)


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