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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 12 years, 25 days
Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL.
    #2006063 - 10/13/03 08:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Communism, however noble in intention, was a flawed system. Quite frankly, some people are just too greedy, selfish, and hungry for power to indefinitely maintain a system in which the masses surrender so much of their personal liberty for the greater good of society. When the state controls the market, decisions are made which ultimately sacrifice efficiency and the incentive to quality quickly erodes (particularly when people in a concurrent system have so much more "butter").
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Capitalism has endured because it accommodates for greed. In fact, it runs on it. This is not to say that there are no merits to a free market system. Obviously, if you work well within such a system, you can enjoy many material pleasures and technological advantages, and have more free time to pursue your individual interests. Unfortunately, if you don?t enjoy the blessings of circumstance and are not one with an intense drive to "succeed" you can easily become trapped in a life as human capital.
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The United States has risen to its current position in the world primarily because of the power and allure of capitalism. We are the richest country (all things considered), the most influential of nations, and consider ourselves, for the most part, to be a model for the world.
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One of the main aspects of our country, which we consider essential to our identity, and have used as a justification for many of our actions abroad, it that we stand for democracy. Democratic principles have been used, in part, as justification for pretty much every conflict the U.S. has been involved in during the past century. But are we really a "democracy," and what implications can we draw from a "democratic" system?
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The Process of Politics
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Integral to the democratic process is voting. In the U.S., every citizen, by birth, is guaranteed the right to vote. We elect our representatives and they make the decisions relevant to the daily and future management of our country. If we don?t like the decisions they make, or the decisions we think they will make, we just vote against them in the upcoming election.
This sounds like a pretty straightforward, fair process. But is it?
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One of the main requirements, if not the main requirement for political participation is money. Money may not make the world go round, but without it, your chances of becoming a politician are slim to none. This is particularly true in our two-party system, where each side tries to "out-market" the other. If you want people to listen to your ideas, you have to pay to have them properly promulgated.
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Money, however, is essential for more than just a career in politics. If you don?t want to run for office, but would rather just influence someone who already is in office, you better be extremely lucky, or extremely wealthy. Politicians generally want to remain politicians. The ability to contribute millions of dollars to a politician?s future campaign will definitely increase your chances of persuading him or her to vote in your favor. It?s true that a politician has to be concerned with public opinion, and will shy away from voting in a way that may evoke an unfavorable response from his/her constituency. But with enough money, it?s easy to make the public forget about any given vote, if they ever knew about it in the first place.
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Some politicians are faced with term limits. These individuals may be less likely to pay attention to campaign contributions, but even they may be swayed by the promise of a prestigious career with a private company, especially if it involves very little work (i.e. as an "advisor" or "consultant").
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The power of money is particularly relevant as the political office becomes more prestigious. In the race for and maintenance of the presidency, for example, it is paramount (although political affiliation is integral as well).
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Money can also influence information. What the public knows about a particular candidate or issue is almost entirely influenced by what they see on TV, or read in the newspaper. If you have enough money, and if it is in the corporate controlled media?s best interest to promote you, your public image can be made quite favorable. It can become as much an issue of what is printed as what is not printed.
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So, who really runs the country? Some would say it?s the people. Those slightly less na?ve would say it?s the politicians on behalf of the people. Ultimately, however, it is (admittedly, with some rare exceptions) those with money. Democracy, then, seems to be a system best suited to those with money. If you have money, you have influence. For the people, by the people? Get a job.
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But what does that have to do with Kyrgyzstan?
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The United States has, for some time now, been attempting to instill "democracy" into other parts of the world. The masses who support these actions typically believe that America is acting as a noble entity, concerned with spreading the blessings of freedom and liberty to all the people of the world. (Ahh, how nice!) Beneath the surface though, righteousness is, again, merely the guise of greed.
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The corporate controlled American political system has now begun to sneak out into the rest of the world. "Globalization" is just an excuse for companies to tap into new markets and to seek new ways of producing products for less than their competitors, often at the expense of the native population. "Democracy" is just a way to force foreign governments to open their doors to corporate control. This is not a conspiracy, per say, but it is a trend that is consciously being promoted. The government is not trying to spread democracy to liberate the foreign masses, they?re just responding to the influence of the corporate elites who want to make more money.
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Additionally, we are now witnessing the rise of the Multi-National Mega-Corporation (MNMC). These companies are so diverse in their holdings, and so powerful in their influence, that they are beginning to dwarf actual nation-states in their position in world affairs. MNMC?s have the distinct advantage of transcending the traditional nation-state in that they don?t actually exist within any defined set of borders and are far less visible in their doings. The MNMC is also able to carry out it?s will via actual governments. By using their financial clout, MNMC?s can influence government policy to their advantage (deregulating industries, easing labor laws, etc.) and can even play a part in a government?s use of force against another country (if that country won't comply with the MNMC).
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Many people around the world view the United States as a nation bent on imperialism. Many feel the U.S. is an evil empire lusting for world domination. Those with power have tried to band together to gain leverage (as in the EU, for example). The powerless strike at us any way they can (terrorism).
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I definitely believe that there is much validity to the distrust and animosity towards "America", but I feel that it misses the point. The U.S. government is no longer an autonomous state-authority. The "democracy" which has for so long distinguished our country has now led to it?s almost complete loss of true power. The government of our country has been purchased, essentially, by the current band of top MNMC?s. They control our political system, directly and indirectly, and they also control the information that the public receives via the mainstream media. They may not have ultimate power over everything, but, to be sure, that which is most relevant to their interests they invest in heavily.
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So what are you trying to say?
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If the United States government appears to be imperialistic, think again. The United States is only the means. It?s the super-wealthy elites who are imperialistic. They continue to band together, forming larger and larger MNMC?s with an ever increasing amount of control. Their quest for world domination is a quest to monopolize all available profit. It is only their continued positioning to outdo one another that keeps them somewhat in check. Eventually, however, their merging will lead to a handful of super MNMC?s that will, effectively, run the world. It will be the complete opposite of a communist planet. And who can say how truly terrible that day will be?
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Conspiracy theory? Think again. Look around you. Show me one thing that isn?t "sponsored". Even this war is one big commercial?and trust me, it too is sponsored. In our corporate society, people are encouraged to either work super hard to make someone else even richer, or to submit to a life of minimum-wage servitude. The gap between the two groups in terms of power and prosperity continues to widen.
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The war with Iraq was (is) not about America vs. Saddam's regime. It?s not even about America really. It?s about controlling an essential element of the means of production?oil, gaining access to new markets, and positioning our forces to eventually do the same to some other "hostile" regime nearby.
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Somewhere, some small band of super wealthy elites are licking their lips and grinding their greedy little teeth as they rub their fat hands together in delight. Soon they will control even more. The U.S. is just their tool. For now, it?s quite the cash cow, and oh what a strong and righteous cow it has been.
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One more thing: Saying the media is liberal is like saying that the people that work at McDonald?s are liberal. It doesn?t matter how left wing the ones feeding you that shit are, the ones you really should be worried about, the ones you don?t see, the ones who actually call the shots, are about as liberal as this website is conservative.


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There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 12 years, 25 days
Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: havatampa]
    #2006127 - 10/13/03 08:28 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Food for thought:
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Did you know that Saddam Hussein was once given the key to the city of Detroit?
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Did you know that Saddam came to power, largely, with the unofficial backing of the U.S., who used him as a means of striking at the Iranians?
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Did you know that the weapons of mass destruction Saddam possessed were often either American made or based on American (donated) technology?
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Did you know he used these weapons against the Iranians with the silent backing of our government?
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Did you know that tens of thousands of Iranians were subsequently slaughtered with such chemical agents?
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Did you know that our oil money helped Saddam maintain his power?
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Did you know that as a result of the post Gulf War (1) embargo against Iraq, instigated primarily by the U.S, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi women and children lost their lives? (True, Saddam could have bent to our will and avoided all those deaths, but we know that wasn't Saddam's style well before we enforced the sactions)
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Did you know that when asked about the tragedy, about the thousandS and thousandS of innocent people who had died, former Secretary of State Madeline Albright said, "That's a price we're willing to pay."?
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Did you know that Israel has weapons of mass destruction?
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Do you know how the Arabs feel about that?
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Do you know whose tax dollars pay for many of the Israeli bullets that end up in Palestinian childrens' heads?
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Did you know that during Saddam's reign there were regimes elsewhere that were even more murderous and "evil", which the United States did little to stop (e.g. Uganda, Rwanda, Indonesia, Cambodia, Sudan, etc.)?
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Did you know that Vice President Cheney's former company Haliburton (which, according to a recent article in the NY Times, he still has financial ties to) was awarded the first oil-related contract in Iraq, before the war was even over, without even having to bid?
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Do you know how much longer the world will tolerate our hypocrisy and continue to believe in our "good intentons"?
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Do you know that the only reason I ask these things is because I love my country and don't want to see it destroy itself?
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Those who blindly follow this administration as it greedily herds us off a cliff are about as unpatriotic as can be. Those who stand up and say, "enough of this bullshit!", those are the true patriots.


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There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


Edited by havatampa (10/14/03 10:22 AM)


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Offlinestart25
member
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 111
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: havatampa]
    #2006198 - 10/13/03 08:51 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

That's a great list, I saved it. After reading your posts, I'm curious, do you believe there is a force driving us toward one world government, or do you believe it's solely corporate greed trying to tap new markets.

And you're right on with money buying politicians and elections (i mean most people know this but just gloss over it). I think it's funny that Grey Davis, who like every other politician, pandered to the special interests groups that donated to him, was the one politician challenged after he had the balls to call Bush on deregulating the energy comapnies (also on Bush's undermining of the EPA), really the single cause of a lot of power issues lately- then he gets recalled, kind of fishy to me.

I really identify more with the REAL republican ideology, but is there an honest republican leader other than guys like Ron Paul that get no media attention.

Also, you said that a lot of the weapons going around the middle east are american- so true, American arms dealers had been (maybe still are) selling arms to many nations, I remember hearing at one point (can't back it up for sure thought) American arms companies were selling both to Israel and Palestinian militants!


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OfflineBigcaps
I am not notusing drugs.

Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 175
Loc: Let me die in my hole
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: havatampa]
    #2006228 - 10/13/03 09:03 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Politics is just that, politics, we stab each other in the back, then wipe the blood off on their best friend's shoulder, the strive for fame has dug us into a hole we can never get out of. Humans are so worried about what they need, and who they can save, for their own self gratitude of course. In example, we belive the freedom of speach is the last step in the march of victory to freedom. We forgot that although the right to free speach is an important victory in the battle against OLD restraints, modern man is in the position where most, if not all, of what "he" thinks and says are the things that every one else thinks and says; that he has not aquired the ability to think originaly -thats is- for himself - which alone gives meaning to his claim that nobody can interfere with the expression of his thoughts. We are so proud that we have over comed the external authorities, who tell us what to do and where to be. But we have neglected the role of anonymous authorities such as public opinion "and "common sense", which are so powerful becase of our profound readiness to submit to the expectations of everybody has about ourselfs and our equally profound fear to be diffrent. We are so occupied with the growth of freedoms outside of ourselfs, and are blinded to the inner restraints, complusions, and fears. Until we figure these things out, and fight to gain our own freedom, we will never be able to work together to create something diffrent from our current hell on earth.

As far as the media goes, its who you want to belive, right wingers who will say anything to get you on thier side, or the lefters, (www.indymedia.org) who will do ANYTHING to prove a rightwing nut wrong. They both have their dirty tricks. But if you ask me, the media is NOT liberal, I didn't think that was a debatable issue.


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: havatampa]
    #2006396 - 10/13/03 10:00 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Hitler was Time's man of the year for being good.

Ford gave him 50 grand a year cuz of his great efforts.

Hitler saved millions of people from depression.

Yep him and saddam. great guys

Did you know that asking painfully obvious questions tailored to suit your own motives does not make you look smarter?


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/13/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: start25]
    #2007187 - 10/14/03 02:30 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

An article regarding US arms in Iraq

IN A SIX-MONTH investigation, teams of immigration agents tracking what was left of Iraq?s military have found signs not of Iraqi violations but of something entirely different ? weapons components that appeared to have been made in the United States, which would be illegal to sell to Baghdad.
?We?ve gotten approximately 14 good leads on U.S. companies that may have been involved in illegal transactions of material that wound up in Iraq,? Michael Garcia, director of the Homeland Security Department?s new Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), said in an interview.
Specialists said weapons smuggling was notoriously difficult to investigate because agents can seldom trace a sale all the way to the final buyer. It took three years, for example, to build a case against a California liquor dealer, Fadi Boutros, who was eventually convicted in 1999 of trying to buy military-grade night-vision goggles for Iraq.
In addition, arms shipments usually go through several countries before reaching their destination, complicating the paper trail for investigators.
Since the United States launched its war to disarm Iraqi President Saddam Hussein in March, teams of U.S. inspectors ? like the U.N. teams before them ? have found no clear evidence to back U.S. and British claims Saddam had secret caches of weapons of mass destruction.


....snip


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Anonymous

Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: havatampa]
    #2007833 - 10/14/03 10:22 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Did you know that Saddam came to power, largely, with the unofficial backing of the U.S., who used him as a means of striking at the Iranians?

proof?

here's something you may find interesting:

"Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Find out how you can help support Wikipedia's phenomenal growth.

General Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr (1914 - 1982) was President of Iraq from 1968 to 1979.

A leading member of the Ba'ath Party he orchestrated the 1963 coup that overhthrew Iraq's military leader Muhammad Najib ar-Ruba'i. A few months later the Ba'athists were in turn deposed by another coup. In 1967 a third coup occurred and the Ba'athists returned to power, installing al-Bakr as Iraqi's fourth president.

Al-Bakr is best known for appointing Saddam Hussein as his Vice President. As the president got older, more and more authority was gradually delegated to Hussein, and by the mid 70's the vice president had established virtual de facto rule over the entire nation.

On July 16, 1979 the 65-year-old Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr stepped down and Saddam Hussein assumed the presidency in a move that was widely regarded as little more than a formality."

Wikipedia: Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr

the US-friendly shah of iran did not fall until 1979.

Did you know that the weapons of mass destruction Saddam possessed were often either American made or based on American (donated) technology?

i would like to see a catalogue of these weapons technologies, and the dates when they were given to hussein.

Did you know that our oil money helped Saddam maintain his power?

does this mean that we purchased oil from him? the horror!

Did you know that as a result of the post Gulf War (1) embargo against Iraq, instigated primarily by the U.S, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi women and children lost their lives? (True, Saddam could have bent to our will and avoided all those deaths, but we know that wasn't Saddam's style well before we enforced the sactions)

wow. the second part of that (in paranthesis) was strikingly honest. i would like to ask the author what should have been done, back in the 90's, about hussein's non-compliance.

Did you know that when asked about the tragedy, about the thousandS and thousandS of innocent people who had died, former Secretary of State Madeline Albright said, "That's a price we're willing to pay."?

ah... there it is. the infamous madeline albright quote...

Do you know whose tax dollars pay for many of the Israeli bullets that end up in Palestinian childrens' heads?

absurdity. the questions of whether israel is too heavey-handed in its fight against arab terrorism, and whether or not it's getting a little out of line, are far deeper questions than can be summed up by "isreali bullets that end up in palestinian childrens' heads".

israel itself spends 9 billion of its own funds on its military per year anyway, far more than it receives in US aid.

here's an article about US aid to israel:  Oh so much money...

Did you know that during Saddam's reign there were regimes elsewhere that were even more murderous and "evil", which the United States did little to stop (e.g. Uganda, Rwanda, Indonesia, Cambodia, Sudan, etc.)?

they weren't sitting ontop of oil. this is important for two reasons:

1. without a massive source of revenue, like hussein had, such regimes cannot become very powerful on the international playing field.

2. there is no self-serving reason for the US to attack such countries.
there: the united states attacked iraq because it felt iraq was not only threatening the safety of the US and that of the region (read israel), but threatening our access to oil as well. we attacked for selfish reasons. doesn't change the fact that millions of iraqi people were freed from hussein.

we are not the world's policeman. we are not a liberation-for-free armed force. it was not in our interests to get involved in rwanda, sudan, cambodia, etc. is it our job to topple ruthless dictators everywhere, out of the kindness of our hearts?

Did you know that Vice President Cheney's former company Haliburton (which, according to a recent article in the NY Times, he still has financial ties to) was awarded the first oil-related contract in America without even having to bid?

i don't recall reading that. halliburton was founded in 1919 and is one of the world's largest and most capable oil infrastructure contractors. it makes sense to contract them for the job. i can't think of another company better suited. can you? can the author of this list?

Do you know how much longer the world will tolerate our hypocrisy and continue to believe in our "good intentons"?

pppbbbbthhththh.  :razz:


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Offlinestart25
member
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 111
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: ]
    #2007909 - 10/14/03 11:10 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Did you know that Saddam came to power, largely, with the unofficial backing of the U.S., who used him as a means of striking at the Iranians?

proof?


I don't have proof, though I'm sure I could find something on the web. I thought this was almost common knowledge, I think the CIA was an instrument in saddam getting into power because they "thought" he would be less extremist and a tool of the U.S.- good call guys.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: start25]
    #2007958 - 10/14/03 11:44 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The CIA have always referred to the installation of Saddam in power as "our favourite coup".


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: ]
    #2007963 - 10/14/03 11:46 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i would like to ask the author what should have been done, back in the 90's, about hussein's non-compliance.

So where are the WMD? Exactly what didn't Saddam comply with?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: start25]
    #2008212 - 10/14/03 02:05 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I don't have proof, though I'm sure I could find something on the web. I thought this was almost common knowledge, I think the CIA was an instrument in saddam getting into power because they "thought" he would be less extremist and a tool of the U.S.- good call guys.

hussein slowly grabbed more and more power through the 70's until he was pretty much in charge. in 1979 the old and ailing ba'ath president stepped down and appointed hussein the head of the state, which he for the most part was already.

at the time the ba'ath party came to power, and at the time hussein was gaining control of the party, the US had a friendly government in iran. the idea that the CIA 'installed' hussein just doesn't make any sense. he climbed the ranks of the ba'ath party all on his own, before khomeini gained control of iran.


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OfflineBhairabas
Stranger

Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 889
Loc: Toronto Canada
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: ]
    #2008214 - 10/14/03 02:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It's not cvommon knoledge to people who block out knowledge they don't want to hear..


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OfflineBhairabas
Stranger

Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 889
Loc: Toronto Canada
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: ]
    #2008215 - 10/14/03 02:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It's not common knoledge to people who block out knowledge they don't want to hear..


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Anonymous

Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: Bhairabas]
    #2008226 - 10/14/03 02:16 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

it isn't "common knowledge", it's a common myth. the idea that the CIA installed hussein to mess with iran is inconsistant with easily verified historical events. the fact is that hussein climbed the ranks of the ba'ath party on his own, during a time when there was a US-friendly government in iran.

now... as for those that block out knowledge they don't want to hear...


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 12 years, 25 days
Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: Xlea321]
    #2008298 - 10/14/03 02:49 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I would like to thank all those who have responded to my initial post. Perhaps, as some of you have suggested, I have no idea what I?m talking about and am just trying to sound smart. Or perhaps, as most of you seem to have indicated, there is some truth to my assertions. Either way, I would like to offer a rebuttal to some of the comments attempting to debunk my claims.

?Hitler was Time's man of the year for being good.?

This was used, I think, as a justification for why we shouldn?t care that Saddam was supported by our government. First of all, two wrongs don?t make a right. Secondly, having the endorsement of a magazine or even that of a corporation such as GM is not tantamount to the financial and technological support we gave Saddam. Hitler was never given the key to the city of Detroit, nor was he given money by our government to kill the Jews.

?Did you know that asking painfully obvious questions tailored to suit your own motives does not make you look smarter??

It is not logical to attack the person making the argument. In organized debate, it is the sign of a weak position. Besides, aren?t you doing the very same thing by asking that question? Not trying to get into a tit for tat, just a comment.

?On July 16, 1979 the 65-year-old Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr stepped down and Saddam Hussein assumed the presidency in a move that was widely regarded as little more than a formality? the US-friendly shah of Iran did not fall until 1979.?

There is a difference between taking office and gaining POWER. We helped Saddam come to power, even if he had already positioned himself to assume that office. Furthermore, why do you think he was such a shoe-in that it was merely a formality for him to take office? Perhaps because he had red, white, and blue friends in high place? I?m not suggesting we put Saddam in power to fight Iran, but we did influence him to strike at the Iranians by helping him gain and maintain POWER (realpolitik).

?i would like to see a catalogue of these weapons technologies, and the dates when they were given to hussein.?

So would I. Unfortunately, I don?t have access to the Pentagon?s records regarding under the table agreements. Perhaps we should ask Oliver North to help us get them.

?i would like to ask the author what should have been done, back in the 90's, about hussein's non-compliance.?

How about something which wouldn?t have caused 100,000 + innocent women and helpless little children to die miserable deaths? Is that too much to ask?

?israel itself spends 9 billion of its own funds on its military per year anyway, far more than it receives in US aid.?

Do you know how much money we give Israel? I do not support Palestinian terrorism, but I do think that the only difference between the Palestinians and the Jews in that area that the Jews are the ones wearing shoes (thanks, in part, to our tax money).
Check out this site for more info: www.is-pal.net/usaid.htm

?halliburton was founded in 1919 and is one of the world's largest and most capable oil infrastructure contractors. it makes sense to contract them for the job.?

First of all, check out this website: http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=6288

Halliburton doesn?t even make the Pentagon?s top ten list. Furthermore, here is an article about Cheney?s continued involvement with this company: http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/25/news/companies/cheney/?cnn=yes



Look, I don?t know how you?ve come to the conclusions that you have. Maybe it?s because you were raised in a conservative household and have just never questioned things as an independent individual. Maybe it?s because the government?s story seems so convincing. Maybe you feel scared that people will think you are unpatriotic if you question the government. Maybe you are just still blinded by anger after what happened on Sept. 11. Or, maybe you just don?t want to think about it because it?s too unpleasant.

Whatever it is, I understand. I don?t hate you for believing what you believe and I forgive you if you have animosity towards those who stray from the herd. The point is, while many Americans agree with you, most of the world does not. The most important question we need to ask is not ?how do we keep people from hurting us?? it?s ?how do we keep people from hating us??

I admit that I may be wrong, but please, please consider that I may be right.


Related Sites:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/
http://pnacrevealed.com/



--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Anonymous

Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: Xlea321]
    #2008301 - 10/14/03 02:50 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

what didn't Saddam comply with?

7 August 1991 International inspectors discover a previously unknown and unexpectedly sophisticated facility for the production of centrifuges for use in uranium enrichment outside of Baghdad. US officials say the operation is one of four approaches followed by Iraq in its attempt to develop nuclear weapons. (Washington Post, 8 August 1991, A30)

8 August 1991 Iraq reveals that it tried to hide 17.6 pounds of irradiated nuclear fuel from UN inspectors. (Washington Times, 9 August 1991, 7)

23 September 1991 Iraq detains 44 UN inspectors for 13 hours after they discover documents detailing Iraqi nuclear weapons program. Iraq releases inspectors after confiscating suspect documents, charges that UN team leader David Kay works for US intelligence. Three days later, Iraq agrees to release documents. (CRS, 31 March 1992, 17)

25 January 1992 UN Secretary General releases report to Security Council highlighting Iraqi recalcitrance in complying with UN resolutions regarding its weapons programs, military activities, and financial disclosures. (CRS, 31 March 1992, 33)

5 February 1992 UN Security Council votes to extend economic sanctions against Iraq because of "serious evidence" revealing Iraqi non-compliance with UN resolutions. (Washington Post, 6 February 1992, A21)

1 March 1992 After Iraq refuses to destroy ballistic missile manufacturing equipment, British Foreign Secretary Douglas Hurd hints that UK will not rule out the use of air strikes to force Iraqi compliance with UN resolutions. Press reports assert that Bush administration is also considering using a military strike to coerce Iraq into complying with UN demands to dismantle its ballistic missile production facilities. (CRS, 31 March 1992, 39)

11 March 1992 The UN Security Council charges Iraq with noncompliance with Resolution 687, because of its continued refusal to reveal the whereabouts of all its nuclear, chemical, biological weapons and production facilities. Russian ambassador in Washington endorses the use of military force to compel Iraq to destroy its weapons of mass destruction. (Washington Post, 12 March 1992, A1; CRS, 31 March 1992, 42-43)

14 March 1992 US officially threatens to use military measures to force Iraqi compliance with UN demands. (CRS, 31 March 1992, 44)

9 August 1994 Hussein Kamel Hassan, son-in-law of Saddam Hussein and senior member of the ruling circle in Baghdad, defects to Jordan and attempts to form an anti-Ba'ath resistance movement. Kamel reveals extensive details of Iraq's continuing biological, nuclear, and missile programs to UN and US intelligence officials. (Oldaker 1996, 2)

7 December 1995 United Nations officials disclose that Jordan has seized a cache of Russian-made missile guidance systems that were being smuggled into Iraq across the Jordanian border. Russian officials deny any involvement in the shipment. (National Public Radio, 7 December 1995; Washington Post, 15 December 1995, A30)

7 March 1996 Jordan announces that it has seized another shipment of military spare parts en route to Baghdad. (New York Times, 8 March 1996, A12)

24 October 1997 The UN Security Council passes a US, UK-backed resolution condemning Iraq for continuing to hinder UNSCOM weapons inspectors and threatening a travel ban on responsible Iraqi officials if the obstruction continues. In response, the Iraqi National Assembly calls for the suspension of ties with UNSCOM until the UN sets a timetable for lifting sanctions; Iraq announces American inspectors will be given one week to leave the country. (Journal of Commerce, 27 October 1997, 8A; Financial Times, 29 October 1997, 8; Washington Post, 30 October 1997, A01)

End October 1997 Iraq refuses entry to three Americans on a team of UN arms inspectors, and warns Iraqi anti-aircraft guns might fire upon US U-2 spy planes if surveillance flights continue. The UN sends a high-level diplomatic mission to resolve the budding crisis and Iraq delays the expulsion order against the American inspectors. (Washington Post, 3 November 1997, A1; Financial Times, 5 November 1997, 6)

12 November 1997 The UN Security Council unanimously approves a travel ban for senior Iraqi officials and demands that Iraq stop interfering with UN weapons inspectors. Iraq insists that the weapons teams have fewer Americans. When Iraq refuses to comply with UN demands, the weapons inspectors leave the country. Fears mount that Iraq could revive chemical and biological weapons programs without the oversight of the international community. Russia and France push for a diplomatic solution to the crisis, while Washington does not rule out a resort to the use of force. The United States increases its military presence in the Gulf. (Washington Post, 13 November 1997, A1; Washington Post, 18 November 1997, A22)

21 November 1997 After intense diplomacy by Security Council members, particularly Russia, Iraq agrees to allow UN weapon inspectors back into the country. Russia agrees to push for concessions, such as the easing of the UN sanctions, in return. The Security Council rebuffs a Russian request to declare Iraq free of nuclear weapons and nearly free of prohibited missiles. (Washington Post, 21 November 1997, A1; New York Times, 22 November 1997, A1)

16 January 1998 A weapons inspection team leaves Iraq after being barred for three days from conducting an inspection. The UN Security Council deplores Iraq's decision, which constitutes a clear violation of UN resolutions. (CRS, 6 March 1998, 3)

17 January 1998 Saddam Hussein announces that Iraq will expel all weapons inspectors if sanctions against Iraq are not removed within six months. (CRS, 6 March 1998, 3)

29 April 1998 UNSCOM chief arms inspector Richard Butler reveals that experts discovered mustard gas in Iraqi artillery shells found at an ammunitions depot in 1996. The discovery raises new questions about similar shells that remain unaccounted for. (New York Times, 29 April 1998, A10)

23 July 1998 Iraqi authorities refuse to give UNSCOM documents that list weapons used by the Iraqi Air Force during the war with Iran. (Washington Post, 24 July 1998, A28)

5 August 1998 Iraq restricts activities of IAEA and orders an end to all UNSCOM inspections, except for those specifically approved by the Iraqi government. It allows long distance monitoring with video camera, as well as air, water and soil sampling, to continue. President Hussein demands that UNSCOM be restructured, Butler replaced, and that UNSCOM move its headquarters out of the United States. (Financial Times, 6 August 1998, 1; USIS, 6 August 1998; New York Times, 15 September 1998, A3; Wall Street Journal, 2 October 1998, A16)

9 September 1998 In the face of Iraqi intransigence on inspections, UN Security Council votes to end periodic reviews of the sanctions on Iraq, meaning they will not be lifted. (Reuters, 27 September 1998; New York Times, 10 September 1998, A10)

14 September 1998 Iraq's National Assembly threatens to end all cooperation with inspectors unless the Security Council resumes regular reviews of the sanctions. (New York Times, 15 September 1998, A3)

31 October 1998 Iraq stops all cooperation with weapons inspectors, banning arms inspectors from visiting sites that have already been inspected and were being monitored by UNSCOM. Baghdad says sensors and monitors placed in sites can continued operating and also exempt the IAEA from its latest decision. (Financial Times, 2 November 1998, 1; Wall Street Journal, 2 November 1998, A4)

5 November 1998 The UN Security Council votes unanimously to condemn Iraq for its stance towards the weapons inspectors. Russia and China stress that the resolution does not mention the use of force to make Iraq comply. (New York Times, 6 November 1998, A1; Washington Post, 6 November 1998, A31)

20 November 1998 Shortly after UNSCOM inspectors resume their duties in Iraq, the Iraqi government refuses to provide 12 documents relating to weapons inventories. Iraqi Deputy Foreign Minister Riyadh al-Qaysi accuses the inspectors of "unjustifiably" prolonging their work, thereby extending the embargo. (Washington Post, 24 November 1998, A25; 18 November 1998, A33; Financial Times, 24 November 1998, 6)

15 December 1998 Butler reports to the UN that Iraq continues to block it from performing its duties. Of the 12 sets of documents asked for by Butler immediately following the crisis, Iraq has handed over only one, and that one does not appear to meet UNSCOM's demands. (Washington Post, 16 December 1998, A16; New York Times, 16 December 1998, A4)

16 December 1998 Without consulting the UN Security Council, US President Clinton and UK Prime Minister Blair initiate military action against Iraq. Some Republican congressmen and politicians, including Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott, criticize the timing of the action, which comes the day before the House of Representatives is scheduled to begin debate on articles of impeachment against the President. Other Republican congressmen, however, join with Democratic leaders in supporting the attack. On the first night of "Operation Desert Fox", over 200 cruise missiles are fired at Iraqi targets. (New York Times, 17 December 1998, A1; Washington Post, 17 December 1998, A1)

21 December 1998 Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Aziz reiterates earlier statements that the weapons inspection regime is finished as a result of the bombing. He claims 62 officers and soldiers were killed, 180 injured, and that civilian casualties were "much higher." The American military disputes the claim there was much damage to civilian sites, emphasizing that the US had left "dual use" civilian-military sites off the target list to avoid hurting civilians. (New York Times, 22 December 1998, A14; Washington Post, 22 December 1998, A31)

30 November 1999 Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz visits Moscow in effort to ensure Russia's continued opposition to renewed weapons inspections. (Financial Times, 1 December 1999, 4; New York Times, 6 December 1999, A12)

15 December 1999 Iraq refuses to allow IAEA inspectors to check Iraq's uranium stockpile as required under the 1968 nuclear nonproliferation treaty. (New York Times, 15 December 1999, A13; 16 December 1999, A5)

19 December 1999 Iraq officially rejects resolution 1284 and demands unconditional lifting of sanctions. (Washington Post, 19 December 1999, A54)

8 January 2000 Chinese Foreign Minister Tang Jiaxuan urges visiting Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz to cooperate with UN weapons inspections. (Washington Post, 8 January 2000, A14)

26 November 2001 President Bush declares that countries developing weapons of mass destruction could be a target in the US war against terrorism. He warns Iraq to let UN weapons inspectors back into the country or face the consequences. (New York Times, 27 November 2002, A1; Washington Post, 27 November 2001, A7)

January 2002 Iraq allows IAEA into the country for an inspection of a nuclear research center. The move comes at a time when Iraq is seeking to revive dialogue with the UN. However, since 1998 Iraq has not allowed IAEA to conduct more wide-ranging inspections necessary to verify that Iraq has no weapons-grade material. (Wall Street Journal, 28 January 2002, A10)

July 23, 2002 Following third round of unsuccessful talks with Iraq on 5-6 July, UN Secretary General Kofi Annan announces that he will not hold further talks until Baghdad shows some willingness to readmit UN arms inspectors. (Washington Post, 6 July 2002, A13; 24 July 2002, A14)

http://207.238.152.36/research/topics/sanctions/iraq.htm


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Anonymous

Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: havatampa]
    #2008337 - 10/14/03 03:05 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

There is a difference between taking office and gaining POWER. We helped Saddam come to power, even if he positioned himself to assume that office. Furthermore, why do you think he was such a shoe-in that it was merely a formality for him to take office? Perhaps because he had red, white, and blue friends in high place? I?m not suggesting we put Saddam in power to fight Iran, but we did influence him to strike at the Iranians by helping him gain and maintain POWER (realpolitik).

if the US did help hussein to power (still waiting on proof of this... or even evidense.. hell, even a motive maybe?) in order to influence him to strike iran, this would be awfully strange, as that during his climb to power, there was a US-friendly regime in iran.

So would I. Unfortunately, I don?t have access to the Pentagon?s records regarding under the table agreements. Perhaps we should ask Oliver North to help us get them.

so your proof of your allegations lies where?

How about something which wouldn?t have caused 100,000 + innocent women and helpless little children to die miserable deaths? Is that too much to ask?

something like the military action undertaken several months ago?

Look, I don?t know how you?ve come to the conclusions that you have.

mostly what i've been doing is asking you how you've come to the conclusions you have. as far as me making conclusions, i think i was pretty good about citing sources. you were not.

Look, I don?t know how you?ve come to the conclusions that you have. Maybe it?s because you were raised in a conservative household and have just never questioned things as an independent individual. Maybe it?s because the government?s story seems so convincing. Maybe you feel scared that people will think you are unpatriotic if you question the government. Maybe you are just still blinded by anger after what happened on Sept. 11. Or, maybe you just don?t want to think about it because it?s too unpleasant.

come off it. what i've done here is mostly just stated verifiable historical facts and asked you to cite sources.

it may interest you to know that i've actually held a similar take on things as you seem to at one point in my life. i've been a socialist before. i've been an anarchist. i've lined up with the america haters, the bush haters, and the capitalism haters. i've sympathized with hussein's iraq. i've involved myself in anti-government\police activities in the past that i'd rather not even talk about on an internet message board.

i've seen enough debate, had enough time to think, and been exposed to enough truth to see the logical failings of positions i've held in the past. i think the way i do now not because my eyes are closed, but because they are open. give me a break, and come off your high horse. you don't know me at all.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: ]
    #2008350 - 10/14/03 03:09 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It was requested he didn't make WMD, he hasn't made any. Which part of that isn't compliance?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: ]
    #2008359 - 10/14/03 03:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

if the US did help hussein to power

But you agree the US helped sustain him in power once he was there? With full knowledge that he was a cruel dictator?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,727
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: Xlea321]
    #2008388 - 10/14/03 03:27 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
It was requested he didn't make WMD



It was also mandatory he provide proof the weapons had been destroyed. He did not do so.

Quote:

, he hasn't made any.



Proof? Don't bother, I know you don't have any.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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