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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: Xlea321]
    #2008395 -

It was requested he didn't make WMD, he hasn't made any. That's pretty comprehensive proof of compliance to me. Isn't it to you?

so the fact that nothing has been found in iraq (and even this is debatable) is enough to discout his history of bold defiance of weapons inspections for an entire decade? husseins compliance with inspections came and went throughout the decade, but the underlying reality was that he was always doing just as much as he could get away with. i think maybe it might have been bad timing to go to war with him when we did- it seems evident that he was, at the time, cooperating more than ever before. i don't think he was done though. he'd have been back at it again as soon as the heat was off.

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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: Xlea321]
    #2008399 -

But you agree the US helped sustain him in power once he was there? With full knowledge that he was a cruel dictator?

i don't know. i don't think that the US helped sustain his regime, but i'm really not sure. they did provide aid... how substantial it was, and what it's effects were on his grip on power, are things i must admit i know little about.

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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: ]
    #2008464 -

there- Saddam rose to power with CIA help!

If PBS says he did it with CIA help then I guess we could pretty much call this a proven fact now. Like I said, first result I checked off a google search had it.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/saddam/

This report presents an intimate portrait of Saddam Hussein's life, examining what has made him a master survivor -- from his days as a young hit man in the Ba'ath party to his rise to power with CIA help; from his successful exploitation of superpower rivalry in the 1970s to his miscalculations in invading Kuwait 20 years later; from CIA-backed coup attempts and internal rebellions against him throughout the 1990s to his successful standoff with U.N. weapons inspectors.

Will people start reseaching things for themselves before they start saying prove it.

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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: start25]
    #2008469 -

Again, the lesser of two evils. We had Saddam, who at this time wasn't pushing anti-Us sentiment, or funding Hamas suicide bombers, versus Iran, who hated us. 

Since the liberals hate America, I can see why they wouldn't want us acting to defend ourselves, but, tough shit :smile:


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: lysergic]
    #2008501 -

You guy's are fucking hilarious!!

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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: lysergic]
    #2008531 -

It's beyond being liberal or conservative or republican or democratiic anymore, at least for me, those are games and the people playing them are pawns. The war was a strategic move to topple the middle east, establish foreign markets, extend U.S. dominance, try to get a better footing in progressing the relationship between Israel/Palstine situation, remove a madman, and send a message to other lunatics like Kim Jung Iil. My problem with it is that one more peice of land falls into this socialist-NWO agenda. George Bush could have gotten away with this if he just didn't say WMD- they ahd plenty of other weapons and a terrible human rights record, and the war (much as I hate the military industrial complex) was fought brilliantly- don't let some quacks blowing up cars now tell you otherwise- it's obvious who they are. My point is that the CIA and American government have a history of getting involved with these dicators/extremists (even on U.S. soil in the case of extremist groups) and then a war results over it- too many times for it to be a coincidence for an intelligence agency.


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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: start25]
    #2008550 -

the ba'ath party gained power in iraq with the help of the CIA. the dictator at the time was looking like he was going communist, so they helped the ba'athists overthrow him. at the time, the ba'ath party was nothing like it later became. it had nothing to do with iran, and at the time, hussein was pretty low on the rungs of power. he worked his way up, and transformed the ba'ath party into his own oppressive regime, without US help.

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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: ]
    #2008594 -

hey I never said that the U.S. had anything to do with the direction he took his country, I simply stated that the CIA was involved with him before he took power, and helped him gain power- they wanted him in power. You're wrong man, just give it up. Just like they set up Ho Chi Mihn and started a silly war with him years later. Just been proven fact that we were involved with the Chilean coup in 1970, only we (the mass public) were kept in the dark about it for 33 years. And there's others too, and I could go into even more detail. The CIA or the United States Government/"elite philanthropists" want chaos, out of which comes their bullshit version of order.

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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: start25]
    #2008643 -

The CIA did not help Hussein to gain power. He managed that all by himself. Simply claiming they helped him doesn't make it so.

pinky


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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: Phred]
    #2008679 -

I just posted a PBS link with the exact wording "to his rise to power with CIA help."

Ok. the CIA fucking helped him. It isn't debatable. It isn't a conspiracy- fucking PBS reports it.

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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: ]
    #2008689 -

By "without U.S. help" do you mean before or after the war with Iran started?

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/2002/0923monster.htm

http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/features98/saddam.htm

http://www.jamesglaser.org/2003/p20030416.html

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0301c.pdf

http://www.freep.com/news/nw/saddam27_20030227.htm

It seems like you're trying to confuse the issue. No, the U.S. did not create Saddam from scratch. Yes, Saddam had already assumed his office before the U.S. began to take considerable interest in him. But YES the U.S. did support him and did help him come to POWER (and by power I mean absolute power, after he already was in office). We gave him money, plain and simple. (see links, please)

You want me to provide evidence? Do you look at the links I attach? No, obviously I don't have the reciepts from when we sold Saddam chemical agents. No, I don't have a printout of the record from when we gave him money. Oh, but wait, you don't have any WMD either, do you?

But still, you miss my point. I don't deny Saddam was a bad person. I don't deny that he had WMD. I don't even deny that he needed to be taken out of power. What I do deny is the notion that the U.S. didn't have a part in creating the problem in the first place. I also deny that, as you say, we would still be bothering with Saddam at all if Iraq wasn't sitting on top of all that oil.

The point of my post was that our "good intentions" are usually just a cover for our secret (corporate) interests and that control over decisions relating to foreign policy is shifting more and more from an informed general public to the hands of elite mega-corporations. Who are you defending??? The very same people who would exploit you in an instant? The very same people who would send you to die because they miscalculated 20 years ago?

I've lived for several years in Turkey and I've seen some of the things I'm talking about first hand. If we continue down our present course, we will destroy ourselves. I approach this conversation from a perspective of love and concern, not hatred and anger. Above all, remember that.


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There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.

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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: start25]
    #2008931 -

start25 writes:

I just posted a PBS link with the exact wording "to his rise to power with CIA help."

It may interest you to know that not everything PBS states is factual.

Ok. the CIA fucking helped him.

The CIA did not help him rise to power. That he did on his own. Once he had consolidated his position as the supreme authority in Iraq, I have no doubt that the US provided him intelligence (some of which may have been gathered by the CIA) which he put to good use in his war with Iran. But that is not what we are discussing here.

It isn't debatable. It isn't a conspiracy- fucking PBS reports it.

Your faith in the infallibility of the media is touching, but misplaced.

Ask yourself this -- how did the CIA "help" him? Did they intimidate voters in Iraq, or finance a pro-Saddam election campaign? No, that can't be it -- he was not elected. Did they murder political rivals of his? No, there have never been claims (even by the Noam Chomskys of the world) that the CIA was ever involved in any "wet work" in pre-Saddam Iraq. Help us out here -- what is your theory on the specific actions the CIA performed to help Hussein seize power?

pinky


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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: havatampa]
    #2008944 -

Love?

Yer talking to some of the wrong people.

So, what would it take for some of you:

silversoul
Alex
Gern
Leary
Zahid
and so on and so forth

To get off this mind rotting bulletinboard and start doing something? Im not saying you arent doing anything.. Im not judging.. dont get all defensive.

Im saying.. let's start a revolution. From my vantage, I dont understand why we cant. What else do you have to do?

Any other volunteers? Any ideas? Let's turn all of this wasted effort fighting with the same 5 people who have alot of time on their hands, into bringing our collective abilities together to effect a change.

What do you think?

What has been the downfall of past and even current movements?

Let's deconstruct and reconstruct people. We are running out of time.


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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: Phred]
    #2008976 -

secret agents, propaganda, a thought out plan on how to get Saddam into power when they planned on staging the coup when Saddam was studying law in Cairo, financial backing, promising of weapons. They also selceted the bathist party as well in 1963 to foil Russia's control and bring them to power- all done with CIA, American funding, and American groundwork- so they were already involved with the bathists to begin with, before Saddam ever came on the scene. You're wrong man, flat out wrong. And the reason I said that about PBS is because any information that people disbelieve they say some conspiracy quack came up- i thought that since you don't read alternative news sources that you may take PBS more seriously. Obviously you just want to be right. well, sorry, you're wrong, the CIA was highly involved not only in bringing saddam to power, but even the bathist party almost 20 years earlier.

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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2008978 -

i must say i agree with just about everything you said. its wut ive been thinking for a while. but the real question is wut the fuck can one do about it. :frown:


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Mice have feelings

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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: JameZTheNewbie]
    #2009021 -

Here are some ideas:

www.adbusters.org -- they have a kick ass magazine and adbusters tv. They accept submissions. Im working on a bathroom book that can be included as an insert in their magazine. It covers a wide variety of topics related to the govt and economy with simple diagrams and wording ( not childish) -- just reviving the art of memes.

They also brought back the idea of culture jamming -- tagging billboards, putting gas hog stickers on SUVs.. flying the corporate american flag.

Im also working on an ad for a prescription drug to combat affluenza, all procter and gamble/ eli lily style.

So, there are so options of creative things that anyone could do. Even if they didnt do it for adbusters, you could go stick your creations up in your local malls, on street signs.. etc. ( a website would be a good thing to have with this tactic)

#2, Most walmarts have to allow solicitors on their property. If you notice, they usually have signs outside that say something to this effect
Let's get a platform, make a handout.. make a website.. and use the shroomery to network with people all over the US who can give the handouts to their geographic area. You could give them out on campus, at a concert... whereever. But the way I figure, the shroomery has people from all over, why not use that to our advantage.

Of course that means, we must pick a topic of focus and not let it get diluted and spiral out of control like most movements do. I've got a shitload of links to various guides and experiences that we could maybe filter and fiber through.

#3, toying with this idea.. but working within the system.. everyone always swears this is the way it must be done and maybe they are correct. I want to incorporate a movement. Like Peace(tm). I want to use and abuse the laws of corporate personhood in realtion to the ever growing Patriot Act..

I think there are alot of options out there and technology makes even more possible. If you could get this started, you could align with fringe groups to accomplish even more.


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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: start25]
    #2009048 -

start25 writes:

secret agents, propaganda, a thought out plan on how to get Saddam into power when they planned on staging the coup when Saddam was studying law in Cairo, financial backing, promising of weapons.

So you can't answer the question. I thought not.

They also selceted the bathist party as well in 1963 to foil Russia's control and bring them to power- all done with CIA, American funding, and American groundwork- so they were already involved with the bathists to begin with, before Saddam ever came on the scene.

There is credible evidence that the US preferred the Ba'athist party as it existed in the early Sixties to other alternatives in Iraq at that same time, yes. It would not surprise me to hear that CIA agents would have had a hand in the transfer of useful information and perhaps even funds to the Ba'athist party.

You're wrong man, flat out wrong.

Saying so is easy. Back it up with some facts if you want to be taken seriously.

And the reason I said that about PBS is because any information that people disbelieve they say some conspiracy quack came up- i thought that since you don't read alternative news sources that you may take PBS more seriously.

I do read alternative sources -- almost nothing but alternative news sources. As a matter of fact, I get 99% of my day-to-day news information from the Internet, since I read no mainstream newspapers and have no television or radio. Maybe three or four times a year I get my hands on a discarded Time or Newsweek magazine. They are useful for telling me which diet is the most trendy at the moment.

As for taking PBS seriously, it is apparent from the statements you have made here that it is you who doesn't take PBS seriously -- you haven't bothered to actually read the link you provided to us. I suggest you do so before making your next post -- especially this section:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/interviews/aburish.html

Obviously you just want to be right.

No more than you. Unfortunately, you choose not to back up your assertions with fact. I do.

well, sorry, you're wrong, the CIA was highly involved not only in bringing saddam to power...

If you had actually bothered to read the link you provided us, you would know that statement is incorrect.

pinky


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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: Phred]
    #2009155 -

i have to go study, but I'll post back a full rebuttal tomorrow night.

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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: start25]
    #2009170 -

Why waste your time? You arent going to change their minds.

I mean really, you arent.. and they arent going to change yours.

Go blow bubbles instead.


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Re: Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL. [Re: start25]
    #2009315 -

the CIA helped the ba'ath party, as it existed in the 1960's, come to power. at the time it was actually a pan-arab organization with the goal of arab unity. at one time, democracy was even one of its ideals. yes, during the 1960's, the CIA helped the ba'ath party overthrow the ruling dictator and establish a new government in iraq.

no one is refuting that. it is historically accurate and easily verifiable.

what is being refuted is US involvement in saddam hussein's rise to power through the ranks of the ba'ath orgranization. what sources you may have, showing evidence of CIA involvement in power shifts inside the ba'ath party itself, and hussein's climb to the top, i will be waiting to see.

psilokitten, i invite you as well to provide evidence of this.

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