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Sins and Forgiveness
    #3470768 -

Sorry folks, I absolutely do NOT buy the following:

1. Well I admitted my wrong-doings and that shows my spiritual maturity.
Understanding the nature of the behavior and completely stopping the wrong-doing shows spiritual maturity.

2. I am a mere sinner and bound to make mistakes.
If one is in a dark room, one may be forgiven for bumping into the furniture. But not if the light is on. Basically if one increases wisdom (enlightenment), the bumpings will decrease proportionally. If sin ACTUALLY is our basic nature, then it is impossible to change. Might as well ask a lion to eat grass and give up hunting zebras. If it is not in our nature, then one is NOT BOUND to sin.

3. I am proud that I do not murder or rape, but I still do sin X regularly.
Most all people continue their favorite sins before and after "religion", no matter what they profess. This is called "rationalization".

This all goes back to my original sig: "A difference that makes no difference IS no difference." Any internal change reflects itself in outward change or it is mere self-deception.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: Swami]
    #3470795 -

Sort of like how I was trying to tell that one guy that no one can ever be perfect. :smirk:

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: Swami]
    #3470803 -

Well I certainly agree with your take on points 2 & 3: to ask for forgiveness while holding the knowledge that you will sin again is wrong. If you truly want to be forgiven, you must have a will to change your actions so that you won't NEED to be forgiven again in the future.

However your take on point 1 I do not agree with, though I also don't agree with the original point itself :wink:

I don't think there is any ONE quality to show spiritual maturity. Admitting your faults is a STEP TOWARDS spiritual maturity, and the next step is to cease the actions that you know to be wrong. However that alone does not make you spiritually "mature".


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: trendal]
    #3470870 -

Admitting your faults is a STEP TOWARDS spiritual maturity...

Self-admittance of something that you have previously denied may very well be a first step, but a public confession means nothing in and of itself. (see: Jimmy Swaggart).


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: Swami]
    #3470921 -

Well I would think that a public confession indicates that one has admitted their mistakes, and not only to themselves.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: trendal]
    #3470957 -

Maybe. Child molestors are FORCED to undergo therapy as a part of many programs. To get a lighter sentence or be up for parole, they must participate. In this case, the public confession may merely be a facade and revelatory of no change whatsoever.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: Swami]
    #3470970 -

One sin or 10 does not make what a man is or what his real intent is. Jimmy Swaggart made many mistakes and failed his organization. He was crushed like a watermelon under a truck. But he started that entire part of his life for the same reason anyone starts to God. Because he made such a very large back step means very little.

What means something is to learn and move forward even if it means the same mistake made 400 times. It is entirely up to the observer if one is actually moving forward in the eyes of the observer. But to the heart of Jimmy Swaggart he may have in fact leaped forward in his quest. Some sins are killed very embaressingly and need to be beat down a few times. The core intentions are what really matters


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: Swami]
    #3471036 -

Oh ok, well I was only thinking of VOLUNTARY public confessions. I would be very wary of any FORCED confession, public or otherwise.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3471057 -

What means something is to learn and move forward even if it means the same mistake made 400 times.

Really? I don't see it. If I put a rat in a maze and he took the same path 400 times when looking for the cheese, I would conclude there was no learning. Likewise with a human being. "Gee your honor, I will admit that I beat my wife on 400 occasions, but I am getting real close to change any day now."


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: Swami]
    #3471147 -

There's nothing wrong with falling down, provided you get back up! :smile:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3471166 -

Quote:
The core intentions are what really matters


Without action, intentions are null and void.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: trendal]
    #3471297 -

There's nothing wrong with falling down, provided you get back up!

Even serial killers have long periods of time where they are NOT killing. Whoop-de-doo.

I see no one wants to (or has yet to) tackle the issue of whether or not sin is in our nature.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: Swami]
    #3471316 -

Even serial killers have long periods of time where they are NOT killing. Whoop-de-doo.

"not killing" is different from "not wanting to kill again" :wink:

I see no one wants to (or has yet to) tackle the issue of whether or not sin is in our nature.

And that surprises you why?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: trendal]
    #3471522 -

And that surprises you why?

It doesn't surprise me. Most piercing questions go unanswered because even thick-headed respondents can smell a trap wherein they might be face-to-face with their inconsistency and THAT must be avoided at all costs.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: trendal]
    #3471709 -

trendal said:
There's nothing wrong with falling down, provided you get back up! :smile:


You'll make a great father some day Tren.

Some people had fathers who wanted to keep their children down and would kick them down everytime they tried to pull themselves up.

Some learn from their parents mistakes and change, and some never learn and become just like their parents, wanting to keep people down after they fall by never letting they forget their mistakes.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3472920 -

I watched a TV show last night where they swapped the wives in two families for two weeks.  One wife was in the type of Christian family where the woman does all of the domestic duty, and the man goes out and brings home the bacon but sits around the house other than yard work.  This family was pretty strict by today's standards, punishment was to read and copy Bible verses. 

The other wife and husband allow their children to have tattoos and piercings at age 16, and led the rock and roll life.

Each wife first inspected the other families house without anyone other than the camera there, which was interesting.  Each wife met with their new families and are told by those families how they have been living, how the chores work, schooling, etc.  Then, each wife lives one week according to how the family originally lived.  Before week two each wife changes the rules and lifestyles of the familiy according to what she thinks they should be, and they live another week according to the new rules.

Sure, it was contrived, but still an interesting show as to perceptions vs. reality, how new inputs and interaction can challenge people's belief systems, and how that can effect positive change.

Just like interaction in S&P!  :thumbup:


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: Swami]
    #3473067 -

There is a hadith in Islam where God is to have said: "If you come to me with sins that stack higher than you stand, I will forgive you. If you come to me with sins that stack higher than five men, I will forgive. If you come tome with sins that stack higher than 500 men, I will forgive you. If you come to me with sins that stack higher than all the mountains in the world alike, I will forgive you because I love to forgive."


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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: Swami]
    #3473129 -

"Most piercing questions go unanswered because even thick headed respondents can smell a trap"

:rolleyes:


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3473381 -

>> Admitting your faults is a STEP TOWARDS spiritual maturity

>> Self-admittance of something that you have previously denied may very well be a first step, but a public confession means nothing in and of itself.

Admitting that we've made a mistake offers some relief from the shame we might feel as a result of committing a harmful action. Very often, people attempt to draw upon this so they might escape the guilt that arises from making mistakes. Instead of using the opportunity to recognize the bad effects and develop a resolve to refrain from the harmful action, the individual might retreat into the comfort afforded to them by admitting their wrong doing either to themselves or publically. Retreating from shame into comfort starts the cycle over again, and the individual is doomed to repeat his or her harmful action.

Admitting that we've made a mistake is nonetheless necessary before we can recognize the bad effects of an action and make the firm determination to refrain from that action in the future. In this sense, admitting one's faults is a necessary step toward spiritual maturity. Though, it is a step that can go either forward or backward. It's a step that can further entrench us in our problematic behavior cycles, or it can be the rope that pulls us out of the quicksand.


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Sins and Forgiveness [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3473426 -

"Most piercing questions go unanswered because even thick headed respondents can smell a trap"

You misunderstand. The trap is that by honestly answering the questions, one may have to face the very real possibility that their stance is contradictory or worse yet - baseless. This is not meanness or oneupsmanship, this is philosophical discussion and too many here actually avoid it like a disease.

People remark about my comic, joking style, but when I get serious they run away.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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