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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
#7198133 - 07/19/07 02:17 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Good thing I'm wearing my lead mini-skirt today.
DAMMIT!
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: Epigallo]
#7198140 - 07/19/07 02:19 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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bradley said:
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Forgiving logically implies, that the forgiven one wants to be forgiven
Not at all. You are looking at forgiveness as if it is a favor one does for someone else. It is something you do for yourself. As for the possibility of repeated mistreatment, its not like the person is going to go into attack mode because the other person feels better.
Not going into attack mode, but seriously confirmed by the easy non-obstacleness of his way to do 'it'.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7198219 - 07/19/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Non-forgiveness means that one is still angry at the person that did wrong to him/her. Now you're talking about defending oneself, which doesn't have to come in contradiction with forgiving. Which is to say, one can be cautious regarding somebody, but without holding that anger.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Epigallo
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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7198220 - 07/19/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
I am not interested in having a discussion with somebody who acts so defensive because it's unproductive.
I am very hard pressed to believe your comments were meant to be constructive or that you lent any serious thought into it. For example, you said it was like the AA 12 step program. Virtually every step of the program involves appealing to a higher power. This is visualization, plain and simple.
You gave no sensible reasons for why this method of forgiveness is "consuming and futile". You did say that it is "revengeful" and "reproachful", to which I responded: how is visualization of an act of forgiveness revengeful? You did not answer. I think that was the only substance of your argument as far as I could tell. The rest was just restating your position several ways calling it a "weird as ritual" and an "emotional dildo", and simply stating that "there is no need for all that program", still for reasons I don't see.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7198240 - 07/19/07 02:40 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Non-forgiveness means that one is still angry at the person that did wrong to him/her. Now you're talking about defending oneself, which doesn't have to come in contradiction with forgiving. Which is to say, one can be cautious regarding somebody, but without holding that anger.
Aehm, if I have to defend my (let's say, social non-harmful) way of life against someone, I should be able to forgive him about why and when he doesn't let me do so, especially at these points in the now ? Not my line of thought.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: Epigallo]
#7198301 - 07/19/07 02:54 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Because the term "higher power", in this context, as well as the 12 step AA program is being presented as something outside one's Will. Something that one is dependent upon. In AA's program case, one has to admit that one is being ILL and helpless and must "surrender" to a higher force that will lead his way. This in my opinion is a fetish where one loves to be taken as irresponsible.
So long personal responsibility, so long personal choice and so long the act of becoming aware that we're the only ones who can change our mind set and moods. This is freedom and it's empowering. Freedom in realizing that all we need to do in order to forgive is to want so. And there's no need for visualizing all that. No need in pretending that we're here to remind those who did us wrong what they did to us. Because this kind of visualization comes along with another one: visualizing that particular person feeling bad or ashamed about what he/she did to us which in extent can lead us to erroneous conclusions.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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vitadura
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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7198374 - 07/19/07 03:11 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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It's pretty terrible, if I interpreted some of the above posts correctly, that we are making fun of each other for our ways of coping with feelings. Just because visualizing forgiving someone doesn't work for you doesn't make it okay for you to ridicule someone who it does work for.
-------------------- "You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here." -Max Ehrmann, Desiderata
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backfromthedead
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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: vitadura]
#7198385 - 07/19/07 03:13 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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MT: "No need in pretending that we're here to remind those who did us wrong what they did to us."
I can't help but feel that this is not what the visualization is about. At all.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: vitadura]
#7198419 - 07/19/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
vitadura said: It's pretty terrible, if I interpreted some of the above posts correctly, that we are making fun of each other for our ways of coping with feelings. Just because visualizing forgiving someone doesn't work for you doesn't make it okay for you to ridicule someone who it does work for.
This is a debate forum and any idea is up to be discussed from all the possible aspects  And as I stated from the beginning, this IS my opinion and I also said that it's possible to work for him. But that won't change my own idea and feelings regarding it, nor explaining why I think the way I think about it. Now tell me exactly where did I ridicule anybody?  From what I recall I made no personal attack, I just attacked the idea which is being presented and which is entirely different.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Epigallo
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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7198421 - 07/19/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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What am I portraying as outside of my will? Certainly not the ability to forgive. I am doing it.
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Freedom in realizing that all we need to do in order to forgive is to want so. And there's no need for visualizing all that
So by the same token I would infer that a depressed person only has to want to be happy, and POOF , there they are. Of course the intent has to be there for it to happen, but why would you discard any steps to get there as needless?
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No need in pretending that we're here to remind those who did us wrong what they did to us.
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No need in pretending that we're here to remind those who did us wrong what they did to us. Because this kind of visualization comes along with another one: visualizing that particular person feeling bad or ashamed about what he/she did to us which in extent can lead us to erroneous conclusions
The intent is not to send a person on an imaginary guilt trip, that should be clear from the title of the thread alone. My imaginary person didn't even feel guilty, he empathized, and felt better after I told him. Here, in making a mental picture, intent does basically manifest automatically. But the will to rid oneself of disturbing emotions or outlooks does not automatically manifest. You seem to have had it backwards.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Quote:
backfromthedead said: MT: "No need in pretending that we're here to remind those who did us wrong what they did to us."
I can't help but feel that this is not what the visualization is about. At all.
Ok then, tell me, what is visualization about in your opinion?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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backfromthedead
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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7198455 - 07/19/07 03:30 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Its about your process, your structure, not the other guy's. Its about how this process affects you and your well-being. Clearing blockages. Getting things off your chest. Relief. Tears?? This is futile and consuming?? Hmmm...
"Hmm well I guess whatever appeals to you " Sorry but that shit is futile.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: Epigallo]
#7198459 - 07/19/07 03:30 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The intent is not to send a person on an imaginary guilt trip, that should be clear from the title of the thread alone. My imaginary person didn't even feel guilty, he empathized, and felt better after I told him. Here, in making a mental picture, intent does basically manifest automatically. But the will to rid oneself of disturbing emotions or outlooks does not automatically manifest. You seem to have had it backwards.
It's still distortion of the truth. How can you tell that in real life that person would have been feeling empathetic about your words and the fact that you're about to forgive him/her? Maybe he/she won't give a shit. Or say: it's all in your head I don't consider that I did something wrong to you. If you knew that some of them really think that, would you still be able to forgive them?
And yes, in my book, telling someone the wrongs they did you, and followed by your act of forgiving, means sending them on a guilt trip (or at least intending to do so).
One more question: why do you think that this program advices one into visualizing all that, instead of doing it for real? I mean actually looking for those people and telling them face to face all there was to say?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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backfromthedead
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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7198469 - 07/19/07 03:32 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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"why do you think that this program advices one into visualizing all that..."
Results??
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Quote:
backfromthedead said: "why do you think that this program advices one into visualizing all that..."
Results??
My ENTIRE, unhoped question was: "why do you think that this program advices one into visualizing all that, instead of doing it for real?"
Followed by:
"I mean actually looking for those people and telling them face to face all there was to say? "
Can you note the difference?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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backfromthedead
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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7198599 - 07/19/07 04:04 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Nah.
I think anybody reading the thread knows what you said.
Differance??
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Quote:
backfromthedead said: Nah.
I think anybody reading the thread knows what you said.
Differance??
Can you be more specific? To be honest, I have no idea what you just said. Anybody can make ambiguous statements and then back them up with something similar to: "I think anybody reading the thread knows what you said.".
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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backfromthedead
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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7198652 - 07/19/07 04:16 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ambiguous statements??
Nah = no I can't see the difference.
I think anybody reading the thread knows what you said. = Um... I think anybody reading the thread knows what you said.
Differance = différance gestures at a number of heterogeneous features which govern the production of textual meaning. ...the notion that words and signs can never fully summon forth what they mean, but can only be defined through appeal to additional words, from which they differ.
(A joke)
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Booby
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Re: Resentment and Forgiveness [Re: Booby]
#7198801 - 07/19/07 05:09 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Booby said:
Quote:
Booby said:
Quote:
Booby said:
I'm trying to see that we are the authority for our own paradigm, so someone who is deliberately difficult sets up their own paradigm whether we forgive them or not.
So who gets to administrate the karma of another when we're supposed to withhold from being the vehicle of retribution? Someone who is never going to reincarnate into this existence again, they just can't face their just dessert. The realm of life then is only for those who enjoy the extra sensory sensations and are able to withhold from doing unto others what they don't want done to themselves. Does this sound reasonable?
In other words the realm of life is a pleasure in comparison to being dead.
..And only the people who can withold from being the vehicle of retribution will be able to incarnate.
So I guess someone could be as mean and nasty as they wanted to and if nobody acted in retribution then that person could continue re-incarnating and be as mean and nasty as they wanted to. But then if no one was mean and nasty to him then he would have no focus for his nastiness. (nobody would have a karmic entry-point for his nastiness to target.)
I find this hypothesis to be disturbing on the grounds that it would seem we are constantly dogged by malevolent forces. As such I think in brief this could be an accurate description of human reality rather than anything new.
-------------------- Let it not be remembered That mycelium eats detritus and dies But that life in all it's glory Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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