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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
Self-Forgiveness
    #4630424 - 09/07/05 05:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Why is it that the hardest person for me to forgive is myself?

After all, I have an insider's POV on all the reasons why I make mistakes, so I can understand the "why" in a unique way.

Plus, I am the only person I absolutely have to live with.  If you have a life-long roommate, you need to be able to forgive them or be willing to live in a tense household.

Even those who have hurt me more deeply than I thought possible are a thousand times easier to forgive than myself.

Is this due to ingrained guilt? Perfectionism? Ego? Need for approval?  All of the above?

:confused:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
    #4630450 - 09/07/05 05:18 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

It comes from taking youself to seriously.

Thats why for a time I put on my location that I came from clown school. It was reminder to take myself lightly with a silly twist. Self forgiveness becomes easier. It's easy to laugh at your foibles when you are a clown.

Look for where your ego has you identified with someone who is suppose to be perfect all of the time. Change costumes.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4630481 - 09/07/05 05:27 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, I agree. I have developed more of a sense of humor about mistakes which affect only me, but still struggle to laugh when I affect others.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
    #4630497 - 09/07/05 05:31 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

maybe feeling guilty is okay?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
    #4630524 - 09/07/05 05:35 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Because you are completely responsible for your own actions, as even without free will actually existing you still only exist as yourself. And it is much easier to forgive others who you are ignorant of the true motives and history of than to forgive yourself, which you know all about and realize the stupidity in your actions.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4630529 - 09/07/05 05:35 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Of course its OK, but what do you DO with it?

Growing up, I learned to use guilt (and have it used against me) to control my "natural" behavior. It was a burden and a bludgeon.

Do you think there is a productive way to use guilt?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Ravus]
    #4630553 - 09/07/05 05:40 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

That makes a lot of sense, Ravus. I expect more of myself because I know that I am responsible for my actions. I do not hold others to the same standard because that is their business.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas] * 1
    #4630579 - 09/07/05 05:49 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

If only you had a guilt-free, nun-enforced Catholic upbringing instead of your Celtic paganism...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Swami]
    #4630605 - 09/07/05 05:56 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Y'know, my mother went to Catholic school for 16 years, and had planned to be a nun, so I had to find paganism after I left home.

My upbringing was very much guilt-based and Catholic without the time in church.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Swami]
    #4630612 - 09/07/05 05:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Failure to forgive one's self is denial of responsibility of self. This is similar to your post yesterday...the same basic issue. If one refuses to forgive self then one has not taken responsibility for one's actions. Self forgiveness is the key to overcoming most of life's psychological obstacles and pitfalls. It is intergral to conquering a substance abuse problem or a relationship problem.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4630618 - 09/07/05 06:00 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, it is a central issue for me.

I know that perfectionism is entangled with neurosis, but find it so difficult to let go of it.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
    #4630659 - 09/07/05 06:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I hear what you are saying, and am grateful for your effort, Veritas.

One question though. I have read that the Rosicrucians advised the spiritual practice of active, deep felt remorse. Each night before sleep one is to review the day in backwards fashion, and stop to feel deep remorse on every non-perfect deed. Is this recommended by you guys?

Can't such crisis of remorse and guilt spawn change more rapidly or does this go against nature?

I've been working to not identify myself with my thoughts lately and it helps. :wink: They belong to the sphere, and I filter frequencies. No harm in that. But sometimes I find myself listening and acting on the noise, and find the need for some self-inflicted pain necessary. Maybe it's not?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
    #4630682 - 09/07/05 06:14 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

"I know that perfectionism is entangled with neurosis, but find it so difficult to let go of it."

"Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
thats how the light gets in..."
-L. Cohen


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: dorkus]
    #4630717 - 09/07/05 06:21 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

It is not the feeling or fully embracing of any emotion that is problematic; it is the constant replaying of it and holding onto it that is neurotic.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4630725 - 09/07/05 06:23 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"I know that perfectionism is entangled with neurosis, but find it so difficult to let go of it."

"Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
thats how the light gets in..."
-L. Cohen




Hey dude :thumbup: my favorite verse from Cohen. He captures so much with his words.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGulGen
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
    #4630734 - 09/07/05 06:25 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

How I see it: a person shouldn't punish themselves for past deeds because at the time they must have seemed correct, or they wouldn't have done them in the first place.

I don't think we're capable of doing something that we see as being the wrong thing to do. We look at the information we have available to us, weigh the probabilities of our potential actions, then act in the way that we deem best. This isn't usually a conscious action because we don't consider most things (precisely when to breath, how to move our feet when we walk, or what to have for lunch) important enough to burden ourselves with heavy thought about. Other times we simply don't have the time, mental ability, or information to consider things as deeply as we'd like.

As an example, say you were driving in a car with some friends, a deer jumped into the road, you swerved, ran into a tree and one of your friends died. It'd be perfectly normal to grieve over this and be upset about it, but blaming yourself would be absurd. You didn't know a deer would jump out, it'd be a waste of your time (and impossible) to be constantly vigilant at all times for any remote possibility of danger, and when it did jump into the road you didn't have the time to process exactly what to do - instinct kicked in and you swerved. Was this the best choice you could have possibly made? Maybe, maybe not, but it was the best you could come up with and so you took it. It's hard to be rough on yourself for something like that.

Or say you should have asked out a cute girl, but were too scared and never saw her again. Well too bad, looks like you blew it. At that time you weighed the possibility and significance of rejection so high that not asking seemed like the better choice. If you don't like how it turned out, learn from it and change yourself for the future.

That's pretty much the approach I take anyway. I'm a growing and changing person. I do what I believe is best at the time because that's all I can ever hope to do, and if I don't like how something turns out I'll change that part of me so that it might work better in the future.

If you think you should become more forgiving of yourself, do it. It sounds like in the past you've (perhaps unconsciously) thought that the best course of action whenever you screw up is to smack yourself on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and rub your nose in it. Now you're reconsidering this. If you don't like that part of you, get rid of it. Don't hate it - it was the best path you could come up with at the time - just recognize that there are other ways, change yourself, and move on.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: GulGen]
    #4630750 - 09/07/05 06:30 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

In summation: ALWAYS ask out the cute girl!  :thumbup:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: GulGen]
    #4630762 - 09/07/05 06:33 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Great post.  :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
    #4630821 - 09/07/05 06:43 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I had a lot of trouble with guilt and shame too, until I learned that they are only feelings. It seems that growing up in dysfunctional systems (family and school) we become shame- or guilt- bound. Instead of feeling authentic shame or guilt as valid and appropriate feelings in times when we do something that is in conflict with our core beliefs, we have been instead taught to instead become shamed.

If I steal a cookie and then feel shame or guilt about it, this is healthy since I know I have broken my internal boundaries and moral code. I know what these feelings represent and can therefore change by behaviour and actions appropriately. Afterward I will feel strong and aware.  :smile:

But if I don't know how to work with these feelings I can become so immersed in shame or guilt spiral that I start to believe that something is really wrong with me, that I am basically flawed and dysfunctional human being and there is nothing I can ever do about it.    :blush:

If we go even further, we can say that guilt is not a real feeling after all, but is simply the knowledge and acknowledgment of wrongdoing: you are either guilty or not guilty in relation to the legal or moral code you value. You cannot feel guilty, because guilt is a concrete state and not an emotional one. When you do something wrong you are guilty and when you don't you're not guilty. What people often feel when they think they are guilty is shame. If you are not guilty, there's nothing to be ashamed of. If you are guilty, you can simply embrace the energy that shame brings you and let it work itself out. (parts taken from Emotional Genius by Karla McLaren).


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Ravus]
    #4630831 - 09/07/05 06:45 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Of course its OK, but what do you DO with it?



IMO you don't have to do anything with it. it's information: "i feel guilty becuase i've done something that compromises something i care about"

Quote:

Growing up, I learned to use guilt (and have it used against me) to control my "natural" behavior. It was a burden and a bludgeon.



i can relate to that. i dated a girl i felt lukewarm toward a few years ago. she would always guilt trip me for not calling her more, etc. looking back, i didn't care much for her in the first place, and that's why i acted like i did. i always felt so conflicted/ guilty/ angry. it would have spared us both much trouble if i had been more honest to begin with.

Quote:

Do you think there is a productive way to use guilt?



i think guilt is a kind of social glue for one thing. if i do something that hurts someone, then i regret it after some realization, communicating how guilty i feel can repair the relationship. i'm sure there's other uses.

IMHO the fact that you're having issues with guilt means you have a great opportunity to learn more about yourself by exploring your guilt.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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