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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3413478 -

Looks like I miscommunicated..

Have you ever thought that they WERE?!


duh..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3413717 -

if all experiences are equal...then why do many people point to psychedelics as being so "direct?"

whats carries more significance for a person...

1) choosing to give back a wallet that someone just dropped

or

2) learning to cope and be happy after the death of a loved one?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: Strumpling]
    #3413921 -

Of course, when I was younger I was a heavy LSD user. By the time I had topped my first 100 trips I was convinced that it was a direct connection to the divine. Then after talking to many others who had used this substance I saw so many ridiculous assumptions being made that I realized that psychedelics were only a mirror of our hopes, fears, and dreams. Each person sees only their own reflection...if that person has a highly distorted self image then it will be reflected as well. At this point I am at 400+ entheogenic experiences, most of them were quite powerful (800mcg+ LSD or 6G+ shrooms or 500Mg+ mesc)but these days I use these substances only 2-3 times a year. Experience has taught me that spiritual experiences invoked by entheogens are not always valid.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: kaiowas]
    #3413945 -

Let me rephrase that: All experiences are potentially equal depending on the individual. An act of altruism, though, is spiritually no more significant than an act of selfishness or disinterest. All of our acts have a spiritual dimension.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3415108 -

Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:It should be recognized that all of our life experience is spiritual with every experience having equal spiritual value to every other experience.



Exactly! :thumbup:
Although as you say, it is up to the person to recongise and learn from the experiences

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: lovelight]
    #3415509 -

Psychedelics can lead to insights of the spiritual nature. TRUE

Psychedelics can show a consciousness its roots. TRUE

Psychedelics can show a consciousness a more in depth analytical view of the self. TRUE

Psychedelics can lead to enlightening experiences. TRUE

Psychedelics can lead to enlightenment. FALSE (Because enlightenment is a permanement state of the mind to not be attached to the physical body, or the physical world. It is a very simple, nature state of being, not a drug induced state).



Hope that clears everything up.

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3415913 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Let me rephrase that: All experiences are potentially equal depending on the individual. An act of altruism, though, is spiritually no more significant than an act of selfishness or disinterest. All of our acts have a spiritual dimension.


I was thinking about this exact idea a few days ago. Very often, when we dream, no matter what the action or event is, it's significant. It has deep meaning, it's metaphorical. Even if we're just walking down the street, every thing about that event can be interpreted in a deeper manner.

We sleep a good 66% or so of our lives (assuming you sleep 8 hours a day). That's more than half! So why should our Physical life be any less significant and spirtually important than our Dream life?

If this is true, no matter what you're doing, every single moment of existance, waking or dreaming, has PROFOUND interpretations and meanings attatched to them. As you said, all actions (waking or dreaming) have spiritual dimensions.

Good post!

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: EgoTripping]
    #3416002 -

"We sleep a good 66% or so of our lives (assuming you sleep 8 hours a day). That's more than half! "

Not trying to be a dick.

24 hours per day. 3 X 8 =24. 8 hours per day = 33...%

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: shroomydan]
    #3416031 -

You're right...I always did suck at simple math. I did 16 (our waking ours) divided by 24, whoops.

33% of our lives is still a large chunk though. If you lives 80 years, you'd sleep 26.4 of them off.

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: EgoTripping]
    #3416134 -

I just managed to contradict myself and no one noticed...my bullshit was not penetrated. I said that not all entheogenic experiences were valid...while also having said that all experiences were spiritual. I should rephrase this to say that many spiritual ideas "contracted" while using entheogens do not stand up to scrutiny, and one should not accept such "enlightenment" at face value.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: tekramrepus]
    #3416140 -

"Psychedelics can lead to enlightenment. FALSE (Because enlightenment is a permanement state of the mind to not be attached to the physical body, or the physical world. It is a very simple, nature state of being, not a drug induced state)."

I want to know who on this forum is enlightened. Speak up all who know enlightenment.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3416151 -

"Each person sees only their own reflection...if that person has a highly distorted self image then it will be reflected as well"

Having said this I will also iterate that having a mirror available in one's "house" is sometimes useful.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3416169 -

Hue, I am not enlightened by any means.

I am still very attached to my body, and my ego controls much of what I do.  I have many desires of my own, and many fears.




I do however think I have a valid concept of what "enlightenment" is. Could I be wrong? Of course.

its just my own understanding of it :smile:



I HAVE reached enlightened states of consciousness through psychedelics, but I dont believe thats the same as reaching enlightenment, its more of a glimpse of possibilities , if you will.



I've always experienced through psychedelics what I feel was a valid experience of Death.  However, I dont believe i actually died.

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3416173 -

I think its a bit of both. The Mushroom affects us all the same, but we all get something unique out of it, we all interpret it differently. But it's STILL an experience and thus, my experience cannot invalidate another's just because they might not coincide. Such is the complex simplicity of our Consciousness. If Consciousness is the true cornerstone of our Reality, all experiences are valid.

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: tekramrepus]
    #3416240 -

No one here is enlightened. I interpret enlightenment as an unattainable state that we should strive towards but know we will never get there. I see enlightenment as the ability to be as objective as possible and see the practical truth of life. I have met many who after a drug experience decided that they had experienced enlightenment and, thus were consumed with their own self importance because "they" were THE enlightened one. This was Timothy Leary's big failure, and the reason he never lived up to his promise. Richard Alpert struck closer to a valid path.

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3416260 -

If anybody here was Enlightned, chances are they'd be doing greater things than sitting around posting on a message board.

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3416262 -

I somewhat agree, but I will never agree that enlightenment is an unattainable state.

In fact, I would argue that enlightenment is a DESTINED state. It is our natural state of existance, when we are in harmony on all levels.




"This is an excerpt from an interview with Sri Samadarshini:
Question:. What is exactly Enlightenment in your teachings?

Samadarshini: ?Enlightenment in Bhagavad Dharma is spoken at 3 levels.

At first level it is experiencing reality as it is. That is where the Mind doesn?t interfere with your experience. What is happening within you is a lot of ceaseless chatter going on. Continuous talk, interference from the past, day dreaming about the future; Very rarely are you looking at the birds as it is, looking at the face of the child as it is. People do not experience reality as it is. So at the first stage, Enlightenment is where the interference of the mind stops and the senses are alive.

At the second stage Enlightenment is to feel a tremendous sense of connectedness with the world around you. You feel connectedness with the plant, with the human being in front of you, with the animal, with the mat on which you are sitting, to the sky, you feel connected to every thing around you. You don?t feel that you are alone and don?t feel the sense of separate existence, which basically is the curse of man.

At the third stage Enlightenment is where you experience oneness with the universe. It is no more a sense of connectedness instead you experience a complete union with the universe. You experience Cosmic Consciousness. This is what the Ancient sears would call it Aham Bramhasmin. That is ?I am this whole process called the Universe?.

In Bhagavad Dharma, Bhagavan gives people these different kinds of states and these states that the people land into is not because of a psychological gimmick that they do with themselves, not a game that they play with their mind, not another kind of perception that they would have with which they view the world. It has no effort but just has to happen to them. And this happening, Bhagavan says, can take place only when something fundamentally different happens to you in your brain cells.

Now we know that there are 2 hemispheres in the brain, left & the right. Not all people are mystical. If somebody has to be a mystic, then a different kind of electricity has to flow in his brain cells in a particular pattern. Only such of these people have mystical experiences and not others. Now Bhagavan says when he performs a psychic surgery to you and do something to you psychically, electrical impulses are sent into a certain small part in your left hemisphere of the brain and when these electric currents go to that part of the brain then naturally the way you experience reality would be different. That is how it has happened to all the previous sages and saints and mystics of the past, though some people were unaware of it. Now Bhagavan is making it happen to anybody that is serious and seeking for it. And before this they are taken through a process and finally when their consciousness gets connected to Bhagavan?s consciousness then this is what happens to people. This is how all people land into this state.?

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: tekramrepus]
    #3416269 -

"If anybody here was Enlightned, chances are they'd be doing greater things than sitting around posting on a message board."




Duh egotripping, theyd be sitting under huge trees with their eyes closed

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: tekramrepus]
    #3416273 -

Well, you find me an enlightened person...I ain't never met one.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3416285 -

i've never met an astronaut, but i know they exist.



Plus, i dont think enlightenment can be proved externally.

Can you prove (not speculate, but PROVE) what I am feeling internally right now? Can you prove my state of being?




I can probably find you a few teachers who are enlightened, but I think one can easily dismiss their enlightenment, because it cannot be proved.





How do you prove such a thing?

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