Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience - Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

**Amber_Glow** · 11/25/04 07:31 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

You can drink from the well...

Or you can drink from the well - ON MUSHROOMS!!!!

**question_for_joo** · 11/25/04 07:51 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

You're an honest man Hoohoo. There's too many stoned hippies round these here parts.

**Mixomatosis** · 11/25/04 08:03 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

people who do drugs "hate" freedom

**JacquesCousteau** · 11/25/04 08:04 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I agree. Happy Thanksgiving. :grin:

**Huehuecoyotl** · 11/25/04 08:49 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I never said I hated anything, under normal conditions I would extoll the virtues of entheogens, but here most people already had enough...maybe even need to scale back their use. I understand this as I used to be a heavy user of LSD and shrooms, but it is not under every condition a proof positive spiritual experience. Being high don't equal spiritual discipline.

**Strumpling** · 11/25/04 09:06 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

"Drugs are not the be all/end all to spiritual experience"

Have you ever thought that?

**shroomydan** · 11/25/04 09:34 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I agree too. The things that I have become aware of under the influence of psychedelics are like flashing signs demanding some action. To constantly trip and watch the pretty lights while ignoring the message is spiritually dangerous in my opinion.

**Great_Satan** · 11/25/04 09:42 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I always thought astral travel was superior to psychedelics. Astral travel is very common.

**Huehuecoyotl** · 11/25/04 09:44 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

What do you mean? Yes, obviously, I thought it. I said it.

**Fucknuckle** · 11/25/04 10:18 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Great_Satan said:

I always thought astral travel was superior to psychedelics. Astral travel is very common.

Oh really?

I have been around a long time and I have yet to meet any Astral Travlers :frown:

**TheCheat** · 11/25/04 11:06 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

same as me. i've been into the idea of astral travel for awhile and have educated myself well enough, and they said its common yet i've never met anybody who tried it and let alone heard about it.
one reason might be(for me), if you talk about it in public, people might think your "nutzo" so people talk about it in forums online so to protect their privacy.
we're all insecure in some ways i guess

**Ped** · 11/26/04 01:22 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I think Strumpling is asking if you've ever believed that drug use is the be all and end all of spiritual experience.

**BanJankri** · 11/26/04 06:02 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

astral travel superior to psychedelics? why make such a comparison and decide one is more superior? care to explain?
I go to a free course given at the toronto public library, with people from all sorts of backgrounds. and I dont think people think your a nutzo, where did ya get that idea mate?

sorry back on topic. yes entheogens for me isnt a end but simply means of getting a glimpe. after you get that, its your task to go on and explore.

**Username_Alpha** · 11/26/04 10:55 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I've definitely had this kind of thought in relation to LSD. I began taking it to explore my spirituality, and then I got lost in the meaning of it all. I was a regular acid-head devloping theories and reasoning behind my exsistance, absorbing the typical egocentrical mindset. Acid became my 'Church.' I lost grasp on my reality.

Part of the reason I don't do acid anymore...it's easy to get lost in why you're doing it. I wasn't doing it for the right reasons, in my opinion.

**Huehuecoyotl** · 11/26/04 12:36 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Been there. I do credit entheogens with opening me up to new ideas, though. When using an entheogen one must still maintain a grip on sense and reality and understand the reasons for it's ingestion clearly.

**Swami** · 11/26/04 01:03 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

True change must be wrought...not just lip service and the exchange of stoned platitudes.

But never underestimate the gigglisciousness of a deranged, yet relevant, stoned platitude. I like to collect them the way some hoard hubcaps or ashtrays.

**Huehuecoyotl** · 11/26/04 01:07 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I did not say they were not entertaining...I like talking utter bullshit more than most people.

**Swami** · 11/26/04 02:23 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

**Great_Satan** · 11/26/04 06:07 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

They're discussing it here.

http://www.kancof.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=171

A lot of people discussed it at the hive, too.

**Strumpling** · 11/26/04 06:44 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Looks like I miscommunicated..

Have you ever thought that they WERE?!

duh..

**kaiowas** · 11/26/04 08:11 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

if all experiences are equal...then why do many people point to psychedelics as being so "direct?"

whats carries more significance for a person...

1) choosing to give back a wallet that someone just dropped

or

2) learning to cope and be happy after the death of a loved one?

**Huehuecoyotl** · 11/26/04 09:04 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Of course, when I was younger I was a heavy LSD user. By the time I had topped my first 100 trips I was convinced that it was a direct connection to the divine. Then after talking to many others who had used this substance I saw so many ridiculous assumptions being made that I realized that psychedelics were only a mirror of our hopes, fears, and dreams. Each person sees only their own reflection...if that person has a highly distorted self image then it will be reflected as well. At this point I am at 400+ entheogenic experiences, most of them were quite powerful (800mcg+ LSD or 6G+ shrooms or 500Mg+ mesc)but these days I use these substances only 2-3 times a year. Experience has taught me that spiritual experiences invoked by entheogens are not always valid.

**Huehuecoyotl** · 11/26/04 09:09 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Let me rephrase that: All experiences are potentially equal depending on the individual. An act of altruism, though, is spiritually no more significant than an act of selfishness or disinterest. All of our acts have a spiritual dimension.

**lovelight** · 11/27/04 04:45 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:It should be recognized that all of our life experience is spiritual with every experience having equal spiritual value to every other experience.

Exactly!

Although as you say, it is up to the person to recongise and learn from the experiences

**tekramrepus** · 11/27/04 10:56 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Psychedelics can lead to insights of the spiritual nature. TRUE

Psychedelics can show a consciousness its roots. TRUE

Psychedelics can show a consciousness a more in depth analytical view of the self. TRUE

Psychedelics can lead to enlightening experiences. TRUE

Psychedelics can lead to enlightenment. FALSE (Because enlightenment is a permanement state of the mind to not be attached to the physical body, or the physical world. It is a very simple, nature state of being, not a drug induced state).

Hope that clears everything up.

**EgoTripping** · 11/27/04 01:14 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Huehuecoyotl said:

Let me rephrase that: All experiences are potentially equal depending on the individual. An act of altruism, though, is spiritually no more significant than an act of selfishness or disinterest. All of our acts have a spiritual dimension.

I was thinking about this exact idea a few days ago. Very often, when we dream, no matter what the action or event is, it's significant. It has deep meaning, it's metaphorical. Even if we're just walking down the street, every thing about that event can be interpreted in a deeper manner.

We sleep a good 66% or so of our lives (assuming you sleep 8 hours a day). That's more than half! So why should our Physical life be any less significant and spirtually important than our Dream life?

If this is true, no matter what you're doing, every single moment of existance, waking or dreaming, has PROFOUND interpretations and meanings attatched to them. As you said, all actions (waking or dreaming) have spiritual dimensions.

Good post!

**shroomydan** · 11/27/04 01:48 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

"We sleep a good 66% or so of our lives (assuming you sleep 8 hours a day). That's more than half! "

Not trying to be a dick.

24 hours per day. 3 X 8 =24. 8 hours per day = 33...%

**EgoTripping** · 11/27/04 01:59 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

You're right...I always did suck at simple math. I did 16 (our waking ours) divided by 24, whoops.

33% of our lives is still a large chunk though. If you lives 80 years, you'd sleep 26.4 of them off.

**Huehuecoyotl** · 11/27/04 02:37 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I just managed to contradict myself and no one noticed...my bullshit was not penetrated. I said that not all entheogenic experiences were valid...while also having said that all experiences were spiritual. I should rephrase this to say that many spiritual ideas "contracted" while using entheogens do not stand up to scrutiny, and one should not accept such "enlightenment" at face value.

**Huehuecoyotl** · 11/27/04 02:39 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

"Psychedelics can lead to enlightenment. FALSE (Because enlightenment is a permanement state of the mind to not be attached to the physical body, or the physical world. It is a very simple, nature state of being, not a drug induced state)."

I want to know who on this forum is enlightened. Speak up all who know enlightenment.

**Huehuecoyotl** · 11/27/04 02:41 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

"Each person sees only their own reflection...if that person has a highly distorted self image then it will be reflected as well"

Having said this I will also iterate that having a mirror available in one's "house" is sometimes useful.

**tekramrepus** · 11/27/04 02:45 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Hue, I am not enlightened by any means.

I am still very attached to my body, and my ego controls much of what I do. I have many desires of my own, and many fears.

I do however think I have a valid concept of what "enlightenment" is. Could I be wrong? Of course.

its just my own understanding of it :smile:

I HAVE reached enlightened states of consciousness through psychedelics, but I dont believe thats the same as reaching enlightenment, its more of a glimpse of possibilities , if you will.

I've always experienced through psychedelics what I feel was a valid experience of Death. However, I dont believe i actually died.

**EgoTripping** · 11/27/04 02:46 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I think its a bit of both. The Mushroom affects us all the same, but we all get something unique out of it, we all interpret it differently. But it's STILL an experience and thus, my experience cannot invalidate another's just because they might not coincide. Such is the complex simplicity of our Consciousness. If Consciousness is the true cornerstone of our Reality, all experiences are valid.

**Huehuecoyotl** · 11/27/04 03:09 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

No one here is enlightened. I interpret enlightenment as an unattainable state that we should strive towards but know we will never get there. I see enlightenment as the ability to be as objective as possible and see the practical truth of life. I have met many who after a drug experience decided that they had experienced enlightenment and, thus were consumed with their own self importance because "they" were THE enlightened one. This was Timothy Leary's big failure, and the reason he never lived up to his promise. Richard Alpert struck closer to a valid path.

**EgoTripping** · 11/27/04 03:14 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

If anybody here was Enlightned, chances are they'd be doing greater things than sitting around posting on a message board.

**tekramrepus** · 11/27/04 03:16 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I somewhat agree, but I will never agree that enlightenment is an unattainable state.

In fact, I would argue that enlightenment is a DESTINED state. It is our natural state of existance, when we are in harmony on all levels.

"This is an excerpt from an interview with Sri Samadarshini:
Question:. What is exactly Enlightenment in your teachings?

Samadarshini: ?Enlightenment in Bhagavad Dharma is spoken at 3 levels.

At first level it is experiencing reality as it is. That is where the Mind doesn?t interfere with your experience. What is happening within you is a lot of ceaseless chatter going on. Continuous talk, interference from the past, day dreaming about the future; Very rarely are you looking at the birds as it is, looking at the face of the child as it is. People do not experience reality as it is. So at the first stage, Enlightenment is where the interference of the mind stops and the senses are alive.

At the second stage Enlightenment is to feel a tremendous sense of connectedness with the world around you. You feel connectedness with the plant, with the human being in front of you, with the animal, with the mat on which you are sitting, to the sky, you feel connected to every thing around you. You don?t feel that you are alone and don?t feel the sense of separate existence, which basically is the curse of man.

At the third stage Enlightenment is where you experience oneness with the universe. It is no more a sense of connectedness instead you experience a complete union with the universe. You experience Cosmic Consciousness. This is what the Ancient sears would call it Aham Bramhasmin. That is ?I am this whole process called the Universe?.

In Bhagavad Dharma, Bhagavan gives people these different kinds of states and these states that the people land into is not because of a psychological gimmick that they do with themselves, not a game that they play with their mind, not another kind of perception that they would have with which they view the world. It has no effort but just has to happen to them. And this happening, Bhagavan says, can take place only when something fundamentally different happens to you in your brain cells.

Now we know that there are 2 hemispheres in the brain, left & the right. Not all people are mystical. If somebody has to be a mystic, then a different kind of electricity has to flow in his brain cells in a particular pattern. Only such of these people have mystical experiences and not others. Now Bhagavan says when he performs a psychic surgery to you and do something to you psychically, electrical impulses are sent into a certain small part in your left hemisphere of the brain and when these electric currents go to that part of the brain then naturally the way you experience reality would be different. That is how it has happened to all the previous sages and saints and mystics of the past, though some people were unaware of it. Now Bhagavan is making it happen to anybody that is serious and seeking for it. And before this they are taken through a process and finally when their consciousness gets connected to Bhagavan?s consciousness then this is what happens to people. This is how all people land into this state.?

**tekramrepus** · 11/27/04 03:17 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

"If anybody here was Enlightned, chances are they'd be doing greater things than sitting around posting on a message board."

Duh egotripping, theyd be sitting under huge trees with their eyes closed

**Huehuecoyotl** · 11/27/04 03:19 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Well, you find me an enlightened person...I ain't never met one.

**tekramrepus** · 11/27/04 03:23 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

i've never met an astronaut, but i know they exist.

Plus, i dont think enlightenment can be proved externally.

Can you prove (not speculate, but PROVE) what I am feeling internally right now? Can you prove my state of being?

I can probably find you a few teachers who are enlightened, but I think one can easily dismiss their enlightenment, because it cannot be proved.

How do you prove such a thing?

**Huehuecoyotl** · 11/27/04 03:25 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

"i've never met an astronaut"

I have.

**deff** · 11/27/04 03:49 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

"I interpret enlightenment as an unattainable state that we should strive towards but know we will never get there."

Maybe that's why it's unattainable :smile:

There's this whole 'prestige' around enlightenment that is really a shame. Often people expect enlightenment to be something so great that they will never be able to accept another's movement towards it. They say it's 'egotistical' to speak of it, then use the fact that no one speaks of it as proof of it's unattainable nature.

I think it's true that an 'enlightened person' would not go around saying it, nor would they view themselves as such. However, if they did say they were, why is this considered naturally a selfish and egotistical action? Is it really one, or is it the observer who cannot accept another's state of awareness? If it is said for example to show a student that such a state (or rather- gradual transition) indeed is attainable, out of pure selfless nature - how is this bloating?

We set 'enlightenment' up on such a high level that we will deny it's possibility - which in turn creates this illusional impossibility.

I really don't like the term :smile:

I think it would be more beneficial to say that everyone IS ENLIGHTENED, but many are at varying degrees of realizing it. Whether or not one knows the truth does not negate the fact that they remain a valid part of the truth. Spirituality shifts awareness and not position, it shifts the input but the observer is constant.

Now I do not believe that a state exists of 100% enlightenment, short of dissolving into the awareness - becoming the awareness - and losing one's physical incarnation. Such a state is attainable by anyone, yet is hidden by many out of an attachment for desire of survival. This is what my post, 'the door' was about :smile:

However, people can become very aware of this state while still existing physically. These are the people that others would considered "enlightened" ones, but really they are "more enlightened reltaive to one's perception of self enlightenment", or something :smile:

.

It's all relative to your own experience, or something.

The hole just keeps going and going and going, yet the conditions for the hole to exist are constant.

**Huehuecoyotl** · 11/27/04 04:09 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

"Now I do not believe that a state exists of 100% enlightenment, short of dissolving into the awareness - becoming the awareness - and losing one's physical incarnation. Such a state is attainable by anyone"

That is pretty much what I was getting at. One thing I know for sure, though, if someone proclaims it, they ain't got it.

**deff** · 11/27/04 04:22 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, then I agree.

However the term is so vague, that it could be said that there are varying stages to 'enlightenment', that it is a sort of process of awareness. If this is the accepted definition, then everyone is enlightened, just to subjectively varying degrees :laugh:

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