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 wintertime
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 Lucifer in heaven? 
#308334 - 05/03/01 07:27 AM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
Lucifer was an angel in heaven. He believed he was more powerful than God, thereby being evil, and was cast into/went to/became ruler of hell.
The part I don't think makes sense: Heaven is meant to be perfect right? There is not meant to be any evil in heaven, as that is imperfection, against the will of God. Therefore, how was Lucifer able to even conceive the notion of evil when he was in heaven, this would mean that he was able to think evil thoughts while IN heaven. Therefore, there IS evil in heaven.
Doesn't this contradict the definition of heaven?
One more thing:
"Satan cannot perform any acts unless God approves (Job1:6 to 2:10)." If this is true, why doesn't God just deny Satan the ability to perform evil acts? If he doesn't then God is evil too.
Enlighten me.. :)
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gnrm23
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: wintertime]
#308341 - 05/03/01 07:43 AM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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read:
_job: a comedy of justice_
by robert a heinlein...
all will be clear...
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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gnrm23
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: wintertime]
#308342 - 05/03/01 07:44 AM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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or harold bloom's biography of satan...
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old enough to know better
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gribochek
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: wintertime]
#308366 - 05/03/01 09:00 AM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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The thinking of evil thoughts and being cast down is one and the same thing, like moving your legs and running.
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 Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: wintertime]
#308438 - 05/03/01 11:12 AM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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"Satan cannot perform any acts unless God approves (Job1:6 to 2:10)." If this is true, why doesn't God just deny Satan the ability to perform evil acts? If he doesn't then God is evil too."
God gave man free will..it's our choice to listen to the devil..that's my interpretation
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
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Clark
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 Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: gnrm23]
#308617 - 05/03/01 03:33 PM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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read:
_job: a comedy of justice_
by robert a heinlein...
all will be clear...
or harold bloom's biography of satan...
Or Mark Twain's "Letters from Earth".
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gnrm23
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: Clark]
#309150 - 05/04/01 07:04 AM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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twain:
number 44: the mysterious stranger
whew---even the movie is good, and the story is scathing...
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mr crisper
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Registered: 07/24/00
Posts: 928
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: wintertime]
#309633 - 05/04/01 09:20 PM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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in the bible, something like - and god said, i create the light and the darkness.
the interplay of darkness and light, of good and evil, is what creates change and change is the constant necessary for life to exist in the physical domain.
yoda in star wars, doesnt get it quite right with his great old saying- may i be so presumptious as to change it a little - fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to conflict, conflict leads to change and change is the way of the physical plane.
remember too, good and evil are purely relative concepts, our culture abhors eating human flesh and considers it evil whereas others cultures reckon its the coolest thing to do.
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wintertime
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: mr crisper]
#309685 - 05/04/01 10:45 PM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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mr crisper: I am just assuming that what the bible says is real. I don't really want to go beyond Christianity at this point, lets assume that Christianity is the absolute truth and what they say is right IS right. So assuming this, then there are two conflicting notions of good and evil. What I am confused about (as I said earlier) is how Lucifer was able to even RECOGNISE that there was evil at all, let alone accept it and give in to it. I mean isn't heaven supposed to be perfect? If there was a notion of evil in there at all then it would detract from its "perfectness".
I havn't had a chance to read those books you all so kindly suggested, so they may make things clearer.
Thanks all of you for the replies so far, any thoughts/suggestions/ideas are welcomed.
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D Joseph
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: wintertime]
#309900 - 05/05/01 11:27 AM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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Could it be that angels have free will just as you and I do? Could it be that Lucifer did not "recognize" evil, but CREATED it the moment he disagreed with God? Could it be that Heaven for humans is separated from the Heaven of angels?
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: wintertime]
#309959 - 05/05/01 01:39 PM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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"Lucifer ('fire-bearer') in Hebrew is Helel ben Sahar, 'Bright Son of the Morning." - The History of Hell by Alice K. Turner
"Lucifer ('light-giver') erroneously equated with the fallen angel (Satan) due to a misreading of Isaiah 14:12: ' How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning,' an apostrophe which applied to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon. It should be pointed out that the authors of the Old Testament knew nothing of fallen or evil angels, and do not mention them, although at times, as in Job 4:18, the Lord 'put no trust' in his angels and 'charged them with folly,' which would indicate that angels were not all that they should be. The name Lucifer was applied to Satan by St. Jerome and other Church Fathers...Actually, Lucifer connotes star, and applies (or originally meant to apply) to the morning or evening star (Venus)." - A Dictionary of Angels by Gustav Davidson.
Like most of our uncritical, unquestioned assumptions about the Christian mythos, we as moderns have misread, confused and confounded the original intentions of ancient authors, and created our own meanings - our own theologies. Discord in the mythos of heaven indicated that two comes out of One - that the One - the Utterly Transcendent Godhead which is beyond duality, creates or emanates the principle of duality. In the West, this principle is portrayed in moral categories as good and evil, and the multiplicity of creation derives from their struggle. It is easier for Westerners to grasp the Chineses Yin-Yang as deriving from the Tao, than the very same mythos, anthropomorphized by the Biblical authors. Why is that?! Why do people literalize Biblical image and metaphor while at the same time they have no problen getting the same principle in abstract symbolic terms. If you wanna believe that somewhere in the sky, earth or underworld there are giant Ying-Yang symbols presiding - go ahead. It is no more ridiculous than the Chick publication booklet that an evangelist knocked on my door to give me earlier today entitled 'This Was Your Life.' I read that pamphlet in 1970 - scary stuff - lake of fire and all. The very sad truth is that people just don't realize that myth is the closest means for expressing That which is inexpressable, ineffable. The Zen saying about the finger pointing at the moon applies when people think the gesture means to look at the finger. People literalize the myth and STILL act as if they live on a flat Earth with a domed sky as the floor of heaven.! Myth doesn't mean fiction - it is a language of story, image and metaphor. Feathered-winged angels and bat-winged devils have even less reality than Santa Claus. There was a St. Nicholas, who did place gold coins in the stocking of a young woman so she could have a dowry and get married. Sheesh!
Edited by MarkostheGnostic on 05/05/01 03:41 PM.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Senor_Doobie
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It is my theory that God is an angel himself. Perhaps he is respected by the other angels. Perhaps he is King of the Angels, but I don't think that he has any properties that give him more power or ability.
I use Genesis as evidence. God speaks of "us" and "our" but it is never made clear who he is speaking of. The context implies that he is referring to peers. I don't have a Bible in front of me, so I can't give an example but maybe someone else will.
Job is a cool book. Exposes God as the insecure prick he really is.
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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat
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Falstaff
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Actually, it's Nebuchadrezzar. The spelling of his name with the "n" in place of the "r" is a common misconception. 
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Kid
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: wintertime]
#310259 - 05/06/01 12:57 AM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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God created Evil. Lucifer is his alter ego. I diagnose God with either bipolar disorder or multiple personality disorder. Legally he's a nutter.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
#310738 - 05/06/01 05:38 PM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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Angels are creations according to creation theology, and emanations according to Kabbalistic (Neo-Platonic influenced) lore. The plurality expressed in Genesis refers to the Hebrew Name of G-d in that passage which is 'Elohim,' which connotes a plurality. The choice of that Name was later connected with a justificatio of the creators of Trinitarian theology, in which there is a 'diversity-in-unity' conception of the Godhead (even though early Christianity had no idea of distinct modes or hypostheses). The Trinitarian notion serves an important psychological function in that 'threeness' suggests dynamism (in Jungian thought) and incompleteness, as if a fourth is needed for wholeness (Quaternity), and sort of invites our awareness to join with it like an atom in ionic form seeking a lone electron to complete its outer shell). Dynamism counters the tendency to imagine G-d as an 'infinite sea of gray tapioca,' to sort of paraphrase St. Augustine, a monolithic Oneness, less than rather than greater than a Living Reality. The Gnostics developed fancifully the ideas of subordinate entities who created the world, and usually consider the act of creation to be an evil or foolish move at best. The One G-d, over and against many of the polytheisms of antiquity still admitted a kind of 'Economia' of personalities. Even the Ophanim - the entities described as wheels within wheels in Ezekiel, are covered with eyes. The complexity of Omniscience is tough to impart linguistically. Don't take the attempts too literally.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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mr crisper
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Registered: 07/24/00
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: wintertime]
#310902 - 05/06/01 09:32 PM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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hi wintertime
the bible has a lot of good stuff in it, you could spend lifetimes studying it and still never get to the bottom, but it has a lot of blinds and is designed to be interpreted at many different levels, absolute truth will always be just over the horizon.
did you ever wonder if the physical plane is heaven? sure we dont all have fun 24 hours a day, but if you didnt have some bad and sad times, how would you know when you were having a good time?
i sometimes think that the physical plane is like a training ground to prepare us to be heavenly beings, kind of like kindergarten for junior gods, we can fuck around being creative without getting into too much trouble.
ever ponder that the whole concept of heaven and hell and satan was created by the clergy to control society. if you are bad you go to hell, how can you be good? do what the church tells you to do. even the popular image of the devil is simply pan, the nature god. pan was the focus of worship for certain pre-christian religions, so of course when the good christians hit town who was their enemy?
have fun
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Anonymous
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: wintertime]
#311093 - 05/07/01 02:19 AM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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Lucifer believed that he could become as or more powerful than God. He saw the power of God and thought, "I could do that"
What Lucifer did is this... the merkaba is a field of energy that surrounds all beings. It shape is represented by the Jewish star. Merkabas are purely spiritual, and are composed of light, they were intended to be an internal function of the body by God. Lucifer directly defied this law of the universe and created a merkaba for himself externally, which basically means he used technology to create an artificial merkaba.
So God got pissed and told him to get the fuck out.
And ever since Satan and God have been living in an eternal drama, a neverending dance.
God doesn't deny Satan the ability to do evil because evil is neccessary. Without evil and dark forces, the world would be off balance. It's the balancing of nature.
Just think of it like Satan is God's alter ego.
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Anonymous
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: wintertime]
#311095 - 05/07/01 02:25 AM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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Good and evil by the way...is the natural way of thinking in the third dimension. Everything happens for a reason. Most people in the 3rd dimension see things as good or bad. But as we grow spiritually, we will find that things that used to be really horrible or depressing, have no affect on us. Because we see that everything happens for a reason. Nothing in existance is an accident. Nothing.
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whyIdied
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Re: Lucifer in heaven? [Re: wintertime]
#311105 - 05/07/01 03:05 AM (23 years, 10 months ago) |
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As someone who has believed that he, at times, had long and intense conversations with both satan and God, I'll give you my lowdown...
God is love, more so than makes sence in words. You intuitavely know His presence, his mark, his "signature". It's pretty much the same way that sometimes you can tell that people are telling the truth, or that they are lying. God is the motivation for everything's existance...it's here because He "loves" it into existance.
What else could support all this stuff?
Satan, however, is a bit trickier...
It's easier to comprehend Satan in that there is a part of all of us, inside, that is wicked, and he's like that but without a good side. St. Augustine explains evil as the absence of any good, not as a thing in itself...like a hole you dig in the ground isn't a "something", it's where something was...and in this case, where something should be. Imagine your mom having left you in a dumpster as a young child. What's wrong with that??? It's that there is a good thing that is needed there (motherly love), that we expect to be there, and when it's not, we call everything associated with the empty space (the sides of the hole; the rationalization of the mother) EVIL.
Sooooo...
How could there be evil in heaven? How could God create evil? How could an omnipotent, all-good, all-knowing God allow evil to continue?
In my opinion, it's because His ambition was to make something real, that wasn't just a construction of His, but could respond to Him of it's own accord. Free will, people call it. Imagine a world without free will. Imagine having the free will of a rock. It would be boring. Evil is an unfortunate side-effect that is well worth it. Evil has been, is, and will be dealt with, and there is a definite end to it, whereas there is no end to God, or free will. But it wouldn't be real free will without the possibility of what we are all too familiar with...wickedness.
And please, don't anyone try to deconstruct my language with the typical scholarly mechanisms that lead inevitably to solopism.
...slow moves, sweet feet...
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...slow moves, sweet feet...
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