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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: d33p]
    #3062974 -

Quote:
tax payers



Yeah I saw a documentary about their plight, it was terrible man. Apparently it makes them extremely bitter and unable to realise how really lucky they really are...it sure is a terrible affliction.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3062990 -

Quote:
refusing to make charitable donations does not force anything on anyone.



So you think all causation is entirely linear do you?

Play this out in a microcosm. Me and a few buddies pay "welfare" to help out a friend in need. At first we all donate a set amount each week but then some bright spark tell us this coercion is evil and must be avoided so we decide only to contribute if we wish to. It soon becomes apparent that a few of my buddies have simply decided to stop contributing altogether. It then becomes further apparent that our friend in need is simply unable to surivie on the money from those generous souls who are still contributing. This forces me and my friends to give more of our own money each week to try and make up the shortfall.

Edit: typo


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Always Smi2le

Edited by GazzBut (08/28/04 06:35 PM)

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3062996 -

Quote:
in a free market, people contribute to other members of society goods of equal value to that which they recieve from those members. free exchange does not allow a person to get more from "society" than one puts in.



We enjoy many benefits of society that have nothing to do with anything we have contributed. This really is self evident..have a little think about it!


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3063003 -

Quote:
Grow up.



Oh the irony.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3063041 -

Quote:
Who cares about ideology if the program is doing more harm than good?



Are you saying that the concept of all members of society contributing relatively equal amounts to help the needy is the problem?

If so, I wholeheartedly disagree. If however you are saying the problem lies with the way the government admiministers welfare and to some extent controls the market then I would agree, although if this is the case I dont see how simply making welfare contributions voluntary would help in any way?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3063062 -

Quote:
Not what Im implying. I would imagine most people on here to be decent people who would contribute to help the poor if we lived in a libertartian utopia. I just wonder how long it would take you all to get really annoyed when you look around and see people not giving a cent to help anyone while you are contributing a portion of your hard earned wages as your personal morality may dictate you do.


If you expect everyone else to live up to your own standards, you're going to be very disappointed in life. I give to the homeless when my friends all avoid them, and I don't get mad or frustrated at them for doing so. That's their prerogative. I just do what feels right by me, and they can do whatever feels right by them.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3063185 -

No irony. It's sad that you've taken up the debating style used by one of your fellow countrymen on this very board.

How you can not grasp the difference between giving, and of having taken, is a mystery.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3064424 -

Noone CONTRIBUTES(implication: this is an action done willingly) to welfare systems.

Come off it Anca. If everyone thought they were being "forced" to pay for welfare that they don't want then they would all be voting for libertarians promising to demolish social welfare. As I'm sure you are all too aware they arn't voting libertarian.

Most people realise that having a safety net and ensuring there arn't thousands of people willing to work for little more than slave labour rates is good for us all.

The government SEIZES

Not really. The population have decided some things are worth paying for. The only way of doing this fairly is for the government to take the money. Otherwise you and mushmaster wouldn't pay anything while me and Gazz did.

Can you think of a better system of payment?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3064709 -

Quote:
If you expect everyone else to live up to your own standards, you're going to be very disappointed in life.



Obviously I dont expect everyone to live by my standards and this is why I would rather see a situation where everyone is required, as a condition for enjoying the benefits our collective society bestows upon us, to pay an equal but relative amount towards supporting the members of society who are unable to support themselves.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3064778 -

GazzBut said:
Quote:
If you expect everyone else to live up to your own standards, you're going to be very disappointed in life.



Obviously I dont expect everyone to live by my standards and this is why I would rather see a situation where everyone is required, as a condition for enjoying the benefits our collective society bestows upon us, to pay an equal but relative amount towards supporting the members of society who are unable to support themselves.


So, in other words, you would force people to live up to your standards?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3064787 -

Dang! You beat me by about thirty seconds.

pinky


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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #3064788 -

Alex123 said:
Noone CONTRIBUTES(implication: this is an action done willingly) to welfare systems.

Come off it Anca. If everyone thought they were being "forced" to pay for welfare that they don't want then they would all be voting for libertarians promising to demolish social welfare. As I'm sure you are all too aware they arn't voting libertarian.


But what about those that do vote libertarian? The majority is forcing their will upon the minority.

Quote:
Most people realise that having a safety net and ensuring there arn't thousands of people willing to work for little more than slave labour rates is good for us all.


IME, most people are idiots.

Quote:
The government SEIZES

Not really. The population have decided some things are worth paying for. The only way of doing this fairly is for the government to take the money. Otherwise you and mushmaster wouldn't pay anything while me and Gazz did.


No, the government decided long ago(back in the days of the earliest governments) that they needed tribute from their citizens. This evolved into a tax system, which people accept as an inevitability because they have not been exposed to any other way.

Quote:
Can you think of a better system of payment?


I can, and have laid down before exactly what system I would prefer over the current one. Remember the Land Value Tax?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3065762 -

So you think all causation is entirely linear do you?

it's got less to do with that than it does with the usage of the word "force". i understand that by not contributing, one person causes those who do to assume a larger burden if they want the recipients to continue receiving the same benefits as they would otherwise... but no one is forced into doing anything. making larger contributions is a choice.

Edited by mushmaster (08/29/04 05:38 PM)

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3065770 -

We enjoy many benefits of society that have nothing to do with anything we have contributed. This really is self evident..have a little think about it!

can you give some examples?

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #3065819 -

Come off it Anca. If everyone thought they were being "forced" to pay for welfare that they don't want then they would all be voting for libertarians promising to demolish social welfare. As I'm sure you are all too aware they arn't voting libertarian.

taxes are taken by force alex. it's very simple. you don't your pay taxes, and force is initiated against you by the state. you don't think that people are forced to pay taxes? would you be opposed to getting rid of penalties for tax evasion? they seem like silly laws to have when taxes are actually voluntary...

Not really. The population have decided some things are worth paying for. The only way of doing this fairly is for the government to take the money.

"the population" is not a single sentient entity and therefore cannot make decisions. individuals decide that some things are worth paying for, and they pay for them. that's fine.

on the other hand, sometimes individuals decide that things are so worth paying for that they force other people to pay for them too. there's no "population" about it.

Otherwise you and mushmaster wouldn't pay anything while me and Gazz did.

1. i am an adult an i actually pay for quite a bit. you don't even want to know how much rent costs me in this town.

2. what makes you think that ancalogon or i wouldn't make charitable donations? i know i've already made mention of my charitable contributions on this board in the past when people have stooped so low in the course of debate as to call them into question...

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3067741 -

taxes are taken by force alex. it's very simple.

No, they are taken because people have agreed they are the best way of creating a society they want to live in. If they were simply being taken by force then those parties declaring they would end this "force" would be voted overwhelmingly into power. They arn't.

"the population" is not a single sentient entity and therefore cannot make decisions.

They have the choice to vote libertarian or vote for others who support taxation. They choose to vote for people who support taxation. You may not like it, but that is reality.

i am an adult an i actually pay for quite a bit.

I was referring to when tax was abolished and it was up to everyone to contribute to social welfare whenever they felt like it. I have an awful feeling that you might get to brooding on your theories about "If they don't work they and their families should starve to death so the gene pool is "stronger".

what makes you think that ancalogon or i wouldn't make charitable donations?

After all that stuff you said about it being best to let them and their families die you are now saying you would give money to them? You would make contributions to help people who arn't working? Seriously?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3068212 -

a) the legal system that protects you and enables our society to function (fairly) well.
b) the economic structure which allows us to enjoy the collective level of wealth/standard of living we do - I am talking about the actual system here, the actual nuts and bolts.
c) the system of govenrance (however flawed) which bestows rights upon us which many the world over are denied but which we take for granted.

All of these points obviously have sub-categories of benefits we receive from society merely from being a part of it without actually having to contribute anything to it.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3068216 -

Quote:
"the population" is not a single sentient entity and therefore cannot make decisions.



Following this peculiar logic: Congress is not a single senitent entity and therefore cannot make decisions.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3068221 -

Quote:
So, in other words, you would force people to live up to your standards?



No I just dont see why a minority of people should be FORCED to shoulder the burden of helping those in need in society when the responsibility for this burden is obviously shared equally between each member of society.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #3068235 -

Alex123 said:
taxes are taken by force alex. it's very simple.

No, they are taken because people have agreed they are the best way of creating a society they want to live in. If they were simply being taken by force then those parties declaring they would end this "force" would be voted overwhelmingly into power. They arn't.


Which people? The ones in charge. I'm sure you know the power of propaganda(oh wait--only right-wingers have propaganda). It's in the state's best interest to make people believe that they need the state, and that they owe it something.

Quote:
"the population" is not a single sentient entity and therefore cannot make decisions.

They have the choice to vote libertarian or vote for others who support taxation. They choose to vote for people who support taxation. You may not like it, but that is reality.


Who is "they"? The majority? What gives the majority the right to impose its will upon the minority who do not want their money stolen?

Quote:
i am an adult an i actually pay for quite a bit.

I was referring to when tax was abolished and it was up to everyone to contribute to social welfare whenever they felt like it. I have an awful feeling that you might get to brooding on your theories about "If they don't work they and their families should starve to death so the gene pool is "stronger".


*sigh* Why must you always do this, Alex? Why must you project your fantasies onto us? If you could find a post by mushmaster(or any other libertarian on this board) in which he expresses such sentiments, I'd like to see it. I personally have plenty of sympathy for the poor. I simply do not believe in forcing others to give to them.

Quote:
what makes you think that ancalogon or i wouldn't make charitable donations?

After all that stuff you said about it being best to let them and their families die you are now saying you would give money to them? You would make contributions to help people who arn't working? Seriously?


See above.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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General Interest > Political Discussion
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