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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Ed1]
    #3061520 -

Quote:
Nor did the general Arab population or its leaders take a public stand against those who would renew their oppression.



This is too laughable. The halfwit is obviously incapable of the startling realisation that many arabs see the US as the true oppressors now. I pity this mentally challenged fool and suggest someone quietly disarms him of his typewriter and leads him to the sanctuary of the nearest mental asylum where he can try and regain a sense of compassion and reality and also save the rest of us from having to be exposed to his insane ramblings.

Seeing as this post has nothing to do with this thread and I have no idea why you posted it here Ed I can only surmise that the effect of reading and digesting so much crap has started to manifest the inevitable consequences in your own mind. i.e you are losing it.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3061523 -

Quote:
short of that, there is no moral obligation, especially not an enforcable one, to assist other people.



Mush I hope you are not a) being stupid enough to suggest there is some form of objective morality and b) being arrogant enough to suggest that you have the lowdown on this fictional creation?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3061555 -

Quote:
I find it amusing that "libertarians" think it is ok to not contribute a single penny to welfare systems


You seem to be a little confused my friend. Noone CONTRIBUTES(implication: this is an action done willingly) to welfare systems. The government SEIZES(implication: this is an action done through coercion) money and allocates some of it towards public welfare. Your statement should read 'that "libertarians" think it is ok for a public welfare system to not exist,' though that would mess up the rest of your point.

Quote:
thereby forcing a larger burden onto those who morally feel they should contribute to help the less fortunate in society.


You're being extremely foolish if what you're doing here is lopping every single self-described libertarian into a group. Do you have any proof that libertarians as a group tend to give less to private charity(if indeed that's what you're referring to here) than non-libertarians?

Quote:
However, when questioned it seems that most of you agree that it is wrong, in some circumstances, not to provide help to others.



Fale premise, I highly doubt you can prove that libertarians contribute less to charities than non-libertarians.

Quote:
I just dont see the logic in a system which allows greedy people to avoid contributing to the society they live in, thereby forcing others to pay more.


First off, noone is forced to pay more if Joe Libertarian is a greedy mother-fucker and decides not to contribute to charity this month. Use the word force very carefully around us, we take it seriously.

Second off, you see logic in a system where the government puts a gun to peoples heads and extorts money then 'contributes' part of that to the society we live in? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you. "Government is not eloquence; it is not reason; It is force! And like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." -George Washington


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3061558 -

GazzBut said:
I just dont see the logic in a system which allows greedy people to avoid contributing to the society they live in, thereby forcing others to pay more.


Because if someone wants to be greedy, that is their prerogative. Who are you to judge?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3061669 -

silversoul7 said:
GazzBut said:
I just dont see the logic in a system which allows greedy people to avoid contributing to the society they live in, thereby forcing others to pay more.


Because if someone wants to be greedy, that is their prerogative. Who are you to judge?


Curious, especially considering this:

Quote:
Mush I hope you are not ? a) being stupid enough to suggest there is some form of objective morality and b) being arrogant enough to suggest that you have the lowdown on this fictional creation


Apparently his version of morality is the only one worthy of inflicting.

How can it be right to ease the apparent suffering (which may or may not be self imposed) by forcing suffering upon others who you interpret as capable donors?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3061791 -

Mush I hope you are not a) being stupid enough to suggest there is some form of objective morality and b) being arrogant enough to suggest that you have the lowdown on this fictional creation?

you asked a question, i gave my opinion on the matter. my answer no more implies objective moral standards than that of anyone else. i feel that ethical standards based on forbidding the initiation of force are reasonable. they are internally consistent. they bring harm upon none. objective? i wouldn't go that far. more logical, consistent, egalitarian, and humanitarian than anything else suggested thus far? absolutely.

Edited by mushmaster (08/28/04 02:26 PM)

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3061794 -

possible?
nope!

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: vampirism]
    #3061805 -

a direction to move in? yes!  :thumbup:

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3061810 -

a direction which will lead anywhere?
still nope

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: vampirism]
    #3061841 -

what do you mean by "lead anywhere"?

peace and liberty are political ends in themselves. (the only legitimate political ends for that matter).

it is not the role of the state to "lead" the society it serves.

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3061844 -

GazzBut said:
I think it is relevant. I find it amusing that "libertarians" think it is ok to not contribute a single penny to welfare systems thereby forcing a larger burden onto those who morally feel they should contribute to help the less fortunate in society. However, when questioned it seems that most of you agree that it is wrong, in some circumstances, not to provide help to others.

I just dont see the logic in a system which allows greedy people to avoid contributing to the society they live in, thereby forcing others to pay more.


I respect the libertarian ideology and I hold many of their beliefs. I also respect the intentions of liberal policies that are supposed to help the poor. Those are good intentions and they should be admired.

The problem is that those intentions don't translate well into real world results. We need to look at problems and the programs to solve them in terms of costs and benefits. They can't be judged by their intent, but their result. Government programs are proving to be of more harm than good to the intended recipients.

Who cares about ideology if the program is doing more harm than good? Decades of accumulated information on the tragic effects of Great Society progams continues to mount with no end in sight. If the 'War on Poverty' had drastically reduced poverty and suffering I doubt many would be making a big stink about it. Instead our government has exacerbated the problem. We aren't arguing philosophy in a vacuum, we are talking about real world actions that have real world ramifications.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3061868 -

JesusChrist said:
Quote:
I respect the libertarian ideology and I hold many of their beliefs. I also respect the intentions of liberal policies that are supposed to help the poor. Those are good intentions and they should be admired.

The problem is that those intentions don't translate well into real world results. We need to look at problems and the programs to solve them in terms of costs and benefits. They can't be judged by their intent, but their result. Government programs are proving to be of more harm than good to the intended recipients.

Who cares about ideology if the program is doing more harm than good? Decades of accumulated information on the tragic effects of Great Society progams continues to mount with no end in sight. If the 'War on Poverty' had drastically reduced poverty and suffering I doubt many would be making a big stink about it. Instead our government has exacerbated the problem. We aren't arguing philosophy in a vacuum, we are talking about real world actions that have real world ramifications.


Bravo!


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3061875 -

I find it amusing that "libertarians" think it is ok to not contribute a single penny to welfare systems thereby forcing a larger burden onto those who morally feel they should contribute to help the less fortunate in society

refusing to make charitable donations does not force anything on anyone.

I just dont see the logic in a system which allows greedy people to avoid contributing to the society they live in, thereby forcing others to pay more.

in a free market, people contribute to other members of society goods of equal value to that which they recieve from those members. free exchange does not allow a person to get more from "society" than one puts in.

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3061877 -

that is correct, but i do not believe that simply saying and trying to enforce "you cannot use force on others" will lead to peace. The system you propose ignores that people will always use force, regardless of there being a punishment ( no, not always, as in every time, but always as in every period of time or w/e ).

How would such a system even begin to work? It would require massive effort from parents in order to raise their children with the awareness that force is to be avoided at all costs, while there will still be violence and parents will likely be spending more time working than right now in order to keep up with demands. How about families with one parent? The children would be far likelier to initiate force if they had not been educated well. Especially since public education would be a thing of the past.. Basically, the poor would not be so opposed to force as those who were painstakingly brought up to avoid force at all costs. But as you jail/execute the poor, youre just making everyone else poorer.

The system is remnisicent of a vegan wearing a leather jacket, chastising people for eating animal products. Yes, a libertarian system may be feasible, but it would not be beneficial

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3062208 -

GazzBut said:
I dont see how I am confusing the two.

So when do you think it is morally wrong to not provide help to someone...is it really that hard for you to answer??!


When? If a family member or friend needs help.... then. And even then it depends on why. Did they buy a new stereo and then not have rent money? Too fucking bad. Did the trans blow on their car when they are just getting by? Sure, I'll help.

As for being hard to answer, that was a stupid question.

Grow up.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3062214 -

Quote:
I just dont see the logic in a system which allows greedy people to avoid contributing to the society they live in, thereby forcing others to pay more.


And I don't see the logic in stealing from those who make good choices to help those that make bad. I don't see it as my responsibility to help some ass 2,000 miles away that I don't know and don't give a shit about.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3062219 -

Quote:
Noone CONTRIBUTES(implication: this is an action done willingly) to welfare systems. The government SEIZES(implication: this is an action done through coercion) money and allocates some of it towards public welfare.


Exactly. It's difficult to discuss this and other things with those not intelligent enough to know the difference.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #3062909 -

Quote:
Apparently his version of morality is the only one worthy of inflicting.



I am aware morality is subjective. Mushmaster seemed to be implying it had an objective element.

Quote:
How can it be right to ease the apparent suffering (which may or may not be self imposed) by forcing suffering upon others who you interpret as capable donors?






Who suffers from contributing to welfare?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3062924 -

tax payers


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3062967 -

Quote:
You seem to be a little confused my friend. Noone CONTRIBUTES



As far as Im concerned I contribute to welfare by paying taxes. I dont feel particularly coerced as I believe I have to pay my way. How much I pay and how effectively the money is used however, is an altogether different subject.

Quote:
You're being extremely foolish if what you're doing here is lopping every single self-described libertarian into a group.



Lucky im not then!

Quote:
you have any proof that libertarians as a group tend to give less to private charity(if indeed that's what you're referring to here) than non-libertarians?




Not what Im implying. I would imagine most people on here to be decent people who would contribute to help the poor if we lived in a libertartian utopia. I just wonder how long it would take you all to get really annoyed when you look around and see people not giving a cent to help anyone while you are contributing a portion of your hard earned wages as your personal morality may dictate you do.

Quote:
Use the word force very carefully around us, we take it seriously.




To be honest I think this whole concept of "force" is a bit of a millstone round your collective necks.

Quote:
Second off, you see logic in a system where the government puts a gun to peoples heads and extorts money then 'contributes' part of that to the society we live in?



So emotive yet so far removed from reality as to be irrelevant. Yes I know you can go to jail for refusing to pay taxes but as far as I know you wont face the death penalty anywhere.

Tne reasons I support some form of welfare system can be described like this:

1) we live as part of a society which can be described as a set of agreed rules (laws) and practices (economic system,governance etc)

2) it appears to me that these societies in their current incarnation are incapable of providing all members with the means to provide themselves with a standard of living that the rest of us would deem acceptable. I.e Some people, through no fault of their own, will be forced to live in poverty. Now if anyone can disprove this point then Id be very interested to see the proof but please dont waste my time telling me that its just because these people are lazy etc etc.

3) Those of us who enjoy a good standard of living do so not merely through our own hard work but also through the collective structures put in place to allow us to do so.

4) As these structures are unable to provide this opportunity for all members the burden of providing for these less fortunate members of society should fall those who are in a position to help.

5) To me the most rational and equitable way of doing this is to ask each member of society to contribute a proportianate amount based on earnings. It does not seem rational to have unregulated contributions as this is unfair on those who are compassionate enough to contribute.

None of this is to say that I agree with how welfare is run in most western countries right now, I think it needs to be changed radically. I also think we could pay alot less tax and see far better results if corruption and blatant stupidity could be rooted out of government (asking alot I know!)


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Always Smi2le

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