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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: LewDoja] * 7
    #29019556 -

One nice yungensis plate 😎


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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: orca4] * 1
    #29019699 -

LightShedder said:
Haha it's interesting you say 10 or 15 years because,  as you can notice from my post history,  that's precisely around the time I left for a long hiatus. And you're exactly right...... But thanks for clearing that up for me. Good observation BTW. πŸ‘

K sectoring is bullshit. Duly noted βœ…οΈ πŸ‘Œ



Yes! I almost didn't reply, thinking some TC was going to call me a fool, but I'm positive it's correct best practices now that "sectoring is bullshit."

(ESPECIALLY searching for "an individual sector" to have a "pure strain." The shrooms throw up slightly new generics for no reason at all, often.)

People on Reddit will argue with you on that but they never have photos of what they're claiming. Though I'm not sure what photos would prove it, except maybe microscopy.

orca4 said:
Haha that'd be awesome! A little myco lab cafe. I love your set up there. I unfortunately don't the space nor the cake for a flow hood so I need a modestly sized SAB for home lab work.



I am proud to say I "suffered for my art" too. When I moved to my new place, first place I haven't shared with room mates in decades, it was August and so fucking hot.

I had enough money to either buy a flowhood or a window unit AC. I bought the flowhood, sweated, and waited 2 weeks for next paycheck to buy AC.

Pic Tax, Z-Strain variety, bruising what looks to me more green than blue. Anyone had this? I've had it with Z, with some early x7x+, and with B+ when I first started growing.

Edited by nektar61 (11/10/24 06:32 PM)

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: nektar61] * 3
    #29019740 -

Old plate pin not looking to hot on the new plate
Found an even older charcoal plate of the culture I'm hoping works out better lol



--------------------
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I’m fine.

Whatever you decide won’t really impact our survival
Close your eyes, and do the best that you can


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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: Camera93] * 1
    #29019774 -

At least charcoal has some slight antibacterial properties

@nektar, yeah some varieties will bruise green

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: nektar61]
    #29019846 -

nektar61 said:
LightShedder said:
Haha it's interesting you say 10 or 15 years because,  as you can notice from my post history,  that's precisely around the time I left for a long hiatus. And you're exactly right...... But thanks for clearing that up for me. Good observation BTW. πŸ‘

K sectoring is bullshit. Duly noted βœ…οΈ πŸ‘Œ



Yes! I almost didn't reply, thinking some TC was going to call me a fool, but I'm positive it's correct best practices now that "sectoring is bullshit."

(ESPECIALLY searching for "an individual sector" to have a "pure strain." The shrooms throw up slightly new generics for no reason at all, often.)

People on Reddit will argue with you on that but they never have photos of what they're claiming. Though I'm not sure what photos would prove it, except maybe microscopy.



I think there might need to be some clarification: When I read "sectoring" I think of transferring from a spot on 1 plate to achieve cleaner mycelium on the next plate.

I dont interpret that sectoring means that a person can achieve a certain quality of mushroom based on the kind of mycelium that they are seeing with the naked eye...

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: CocaineBuffet] * 1
    #29019854 -

Im going to jump in here bc I was either very much under the wrong impression, or I'm not understanding properly.

In the few months I've been doing agar work, I was doing so under the impression that sectors were genetically different, and while one can't judge the fruiting capabilities/qualities from the mycelium, we can at least select for the healthiest and fastest growing mycelium, which would at least be a step in the right direction, compared to mycelium that was slow, thin, etc.

Are you saying that sectors are just a way for us to communicate which part of the plate looks healthy and is not a genetically unique "arm" of the plate itself?


--------------------


Hitchhikers Guide to The Shroomery

Shine on forever, shine on benevolent son
Shine down upon the severed
Shine until the two become one

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: ThurmanMurman] * 2
    #29019859 -

Yes. Sectoring means to ME that you are "isolating" (not an isolation) a segment of the healthiest growth(s) from one plate to the next in an effort to create a clean culture of mycelium.

No intention of manipulating the characteristics of the future fruit bodies

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: CocaineBuffet]
    #29019865 -

CocaineBuffet said:
Yes. Sectoring means to ME that you are "isolating" (not an isolation) a segment of the healthiest growth(s) from one plate to the next in an effort to create a clean culture of mycelium.

No intention of manipulating the characteristics of the future fruit bodies



Right, bc there's no information available until you fruit it, so grabbing sectors doesn't have anything to do with fruiting performance.

I guess I can ask a question that will clear this up easily - will different sectors of an MS culture perform differently if isolated and eventually fruited? If I take 4 transfers from different sectors of the same MS plate, can I then consider those 4 new plates separate cultures that have been genetically segregated from the MS plate?


--------------------


Hitchhikers Guide to The Shroomery

Shine on forever, shine on benevolent son
Shine down upon the severed
Shine until the two become one

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: ThurmanMurman] * 1
    #29019874 -

ThurmanMurman said:
CocaineBuffet said:
Yes. Sectoring means to ME that you are "isolating" (not an isolation) a segment of the healthiest growth(s) from one plate to the next in an effort to create a clean culture of mycelium.

No intention of manipulating the characteristics of the future fruit bodies



Right, bc there's no information available until you fruit it, so grabbing sectors doesn't have anything to do with fruiting performance.

I guess I can ask a question that will clear this up easily - will different sectors of an MS culture perform differently if isolated and eventually fruited? If I take 4 transfers from different sectors of the same MS plate, can I then consider those 4 new plates separate cultures that have been genetically segregated from the MS plate?



I wouldn't ever expect them to act different. Since I have gone through some personal strain crossings and I would say that your original culture is going to be more representative of that culture unless there is given a natural outlier that say; makes big fruits or clusters

I personally believe that there is no kind of fruit/harvest manipulation on agar that can be done when working with spores even with a microscope. Would be glad to be proven wrong though

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: CocaineBuffet]
    #29019880 -

CocaineBuffet said:
Yes. Sectoring means to ME that you are "isolating" (not an isolation) a segment of the healthiest growth(s) from one plate to the next in an effort to create a clean culture of mycelium.

No intention of manipulating the characteristics of the future fruit bodies



I think we're saying the same thing...We attempt to transfer the best looking, cleanest, most robust "sector" (section) of agar to the next plate.

But I'd encourage us not using the word "sectoring" or "sector" with this.

It will make some noobs (especially ones who've read Stamets' old old book with so much wrong shit, like adding coffee, and adding gypsum for bulk grow, not just PF tek, where it's used just as lube to get the thing out of the jar)

There is a bullshit idea sometimes called "sectoring" that used to be popular, 10 to 15 years ago here, and still sometimes on Reddit, of "trying to cut the smallest individual sector to transfer, because that is a MONOCULTURE." Which is bunk (and the T80 PE experiment confirms it.)

If you search "monoculture", or  "monoculture" + "sector", and look at really old posts, you'll find this bunkum.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/dosearch.php?terms=monoculture+sector

Here are dozens of posts on it.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/dosearch.php?terms=monoculture

Here's one in particular, from 9 years ago:

Quote:
So, previously I believed that, if one were to reduce genetic diversity to a single culture, he'd have a "monoculture." Upon fruiting, the monoculture would release spores of identical genetics. I would expect that any and all spore prints taken from the fruiting bodies would contain the genetically identical monoculture.



For noobs: this is bullshit because
1. You'll never get a single "strain" (geneticly pure unmixed genetic) from getting tinyer slices over time).
and
2. A spore print, even of a clone, starts with lots of new genetics. You can increase chances of particular phenotypes by selective breeding over generations, but a clone is always going to be a much more narrow set of genetics than a spore print.

A clone is theoretically one type, and I don't have the lab gear to back this up but I've heard from smart people: it has a few, but a spore print has millions.

Having more than one may not be bad, and some genetic diversity in a culture may increase changes of something being robust under different growing challenges.

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: CocaineBuffet]
    #29019881 -

CocaineBuffet said:
ThurmanMurman said:
CocaineBuffet said:
Yes. Sectoring means to ME that you are "isolating" (not an isolation) a segment of the healthiest growth(s) from one plate to the next in an effort to create a clean culture of mycelium.

No intention of manipulating the characteristics of the future fruit bodies



Right, bc there's no information available until you fruit it, so grabbing sectors doesn't have anything to do with fruiting performance.

I guess I can ask a question that will clear this up easily - will different sectors of an MS culture perform differently if isolated and eventually fruited? If I take 4 transfers from different sectors of the same MS plate, can I then consider those 4 new plates separate cultures that have been genetically segregated from the MS plate?



I wouldn't ever expect them to act different. Since I have gone through some personal strain crossings and I would say that your original culture is going to be more representative of that culture given a natural outlier that say; makes big fruits or clusters

I personally believe that there is no kind of fruit/harvest manipulation on agar that can be done when working with spores even with a microscope. Would be glad to be proven wrong though



Ok, I think I got it, and this actually helps tremendously. Ive been basically doing this -

1 - MS culture
2 - grab x number of transfers that look fastest and healthiest.
3. Maybe put the plates the grain (assuming theyre clean) or if I see another standout section of one of the T1 plates, grab that for a T2.

I'm sure that all sounds standard, but I've been going to a lot of effort to track each plate as though it's its own culture, but it really doesnt matter, and that makes my organizing process much easier.


--------------------


Hitchhikers Guide to The Shroomery

Shine on forever, shine on benevolent son
Shine down upon the severed
Shine until the two become one

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: ThurmanMurman] * 1
    #29019891 -

I just ran through Stro's write up again - he's most definitely referring to isolating genetics through sector selection.

Im not in any way claiming to know what's the right information, I'm just saying there's some confusion on this.


--------------------


Hitchhikers Guide to The Shroomery

Shine on forever, shine on benevolent son
Shine down upon the severed
Shine until the two become one

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: ThurmanMurman]
    #29019899 -

For what's it's worth, I believe selecting genetics through agar work is possible but not to a extent that makes it worth attempting beyond what's actually visible in the mycelium behavior.

Ie. You generally isolate rhizomorphic growth because it's beautiful of course, but aside from that, it shows stronger characteristics. Rhizomorphic plates will usually produce plate pins faster than tomentose plates. So why does it all of a sudden stop there?

Beyond whats visible on a petri, you're just doing it blindly and I don't think you're narrowing down much that's going to be a significant outcome.

I keep meaning to experiment with this personally but I'll never find the time for it πŸ€¦β€β™‚οΈ

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: nektar61]
    #29019906 -

nektar61 said:
CocaineBuffet said:
Yes. Sectoring means to ME that you are "isolating" (not an isolation) a segment of the healthiest growth(s) from one plate to the next in an effort to create a clean culture of mycelium.

No intention of manipulating the characteristics of the future fruit bodies



I think we're saying the same thing...We attempt to transfer the best looking, cleanest, most robust "sector" (section) of agar to the next plate.

But I'd encourage us not using the word "sectoring" or "sector" with this.

It will make some noobs (especially ones who've read Stamets' old old book with so much wrong shit, like adding coffee, and adding gypsum for bulk grow, not just PF tek, where it's used just as lube to get the thing out of the jar)

There is a bullshit idea sometimes called "sectoring" that used to be popular, 10 to 15 years ago here, and still sometimes on Reddit, of "trying to cut the smallest individual sector to transfer, because that is a MONOCULTURE." Which is bunk (and the T80 PE experiment confirms it.)

If you search "monoculture", or  "monoculture" + "sector", and look at really old posts, you'll find this bunkum.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/dosearch.php?terms=monoculture+sector

Here are dozens of posts on it.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/dosearch.php?terms=monoculture

Here's one in particular, from 9 years ago:



I was not aware of this given we point people to more relevant information. Nektar and I are on the same page. I must have made the assumption people are aware of the "last 3~ year rule when it comes to teks".

Having a hard time coming up with a term that defines this clearly since there is apparently and overlap with "sectoring" and "isolating"

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: CocaineBuffet] * 1
    #29019924 -

CocaineBuffet said:
I was not aware of this given we point people to more relevant information. Nektar and I are on the same page. I must have made the assumption people are aware of the "last 3~ year rule when it comes to teks".



I got so fucked up by reading old teks before I knew that early on. In fact, looking at the "Similar Threads" at the bottom of this page right now, some are from 2005, 2007. I think that's a mistake of how this site works, and could be fixed.

I did make a suggestion to Ythan about 2 years ago, that he implemented, that helped;

This site now automatically adds this to the top of any page over 4 or 5 years old (I forget which he settled on):

Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.

Then after it was up a few days, I asked him to take it off this thread, and off of "Post Your Cultivation Picture of The Day" and a couple more, to not be condemning long-running threads that update daily with new useful info.

CocaineBuffet said:
Having a hard time coming up with a term that defines this clearly since there is apparently and overlap with "sectoring" and "isolating"



How about "taking a good looking transfer"? haha.

I just had a thought. When noobs post a plate and say "Where would you take a transfer?" And we say "The outer edge at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock look good", do you think maybe some of them think we have a magic eye that can spot a "monoculture sector", instead of just knowing what clean, robust (and maybe rhizo) mycelium looks like?

Edited by nektar61 (11/10/24 09:58 PM)

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: ThurmanMurman] * 1
    #29019936 -

ThurmanMurman said:
Im going to jump in here bc I was either very much under the wrong impression, or I'm not understanding properly.

In the few months I've been doing agar work, I was doing so under the impression that sectors were genetically different, and while one can't judge the fruiting capabilities/qualities from the mycelium, we can at least select for the healthiest and fastest growing mycelium, which would at least be a step in the right direction, compared to mycelium that was slow, thin, etc.

Are you saying that sectors are just a way for us to communicate which part of the plate looks healthy and is not a genetically unique "arm" of the plate itself?




You're explaining it exactly the way I understand it. πŸ‘ I think we're correct in that there are different genetic expressions represented in different sectors on a plate.

I think what nektar is saying is true as well though in that one can never achieve a "monostrain" after transferring endless sectors and that the mycelium will always sector out.

I think.


--------------------

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: LightShedder] * 1
    #29019939 -

Pic tax



--------------------

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: nektar61] * 1
    #29019946 -

Valid points on age of posts - tbh, I didn't  notice that write up was 11 years old. Thanks for having this discussion regardless - I've been doing a fair bit of extra work for pretty much nothing.


--------------------


Hitchhikers Guide to The Shroomery

Shine on forever, shine on benevolent son
Shine down upon the severed
Shine until the two become one

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: LightShedder]
    #29019954 -

LightShedder said:
ThurmanMurman said:
Im going to jump in here bc I was either very much under the wrong impression, or I'm not understanding properly.

In the few months I've been doing agar work, I was doing so under the impression that sectors were genetically different, and while one can't judge the fruiting capabilities/qualities from the mycelium, we can at least select for the healthiest and fastest growing mycelium, which would at least be a step in the right direction, compared to mycelium that was slow, thin, etc.

Are you saying that sectors are just a way for us to communicate which part of the plate looks healthy and is not a genetically unique "arm" of the plate itself?




You're explaining it exactly the way I understand it. πŸ‘ I think we're correct in that there are different genetic expressions represented in different sectors on a plate.

I think what nektar is saying is true as well though in that one can never achieve a "monostrain" after transferring endless sectors and that the mycelium will always sector out.

I think.



I have no idea. Honestly, I understand the broadest of broad strokes here and thats it. And it sounds like I may not even have that right. It would be nice to determine if transfers can be treated as genetically similar to the parent plate though so then "Germ Plate #1"
can just be "Germ plate #1 T(x)" instead of treating each transfer as a genetically unique culture bc that shit gets to be like navigating a maze just to figure out what the hell I was trying to do or what I want to do with the plates lol


--------------------


Hitchhikers Guide to The Shroomery

Shine on forever, shine on benevolent son
Shine down upon the severed
Shine until the two become one

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Re: AGAR ENVY! (Anything and All things agar!) [Re: ThurmanMurman] * 2
    #29019969 -

Yes, After MS,  each transfer iteration is then subject to the parent
So in theory... since I take numerous "SELECTIONS" from Ms on to 1 or 2 receiving plates...  to let them fight for dominance.

It's also likely to have very different expressions in fruits that all came from the same Germination (MS) plate.
As well as from the same base parent.
So this is my labeling,  the first parent identifier# is the "Tn",  so you know which transfer from "MS" no matter from which iteration it originated.

   
Quote:
Base Parent Identifiers from MS: 
- PE-A1 (First Parent) 
- PE-B1 (Second Parent) 

Generation 1: 
PE-A1 
  * PE-A2-A 
    - PE-A3-A1 
      - PE-A4-A1-1 
      - PE-A4-A1-2 
    - PE-A3-A2 
      - PE-A4-A2-1 
      - PE-A4-A2-2 
  * PE-A2-B 
    - PE-A3-B1 
      - PE-A4-B1-1 (Variation 1 of PE-A4-B1) 
      - PE-A4-B1-2 (Variation 2 of PE-A4-B1) 
    - PE-A3-B2 
      - PE-A4-B2-1 (Variation 1 of PE-A4-B2) 
      - PE-A4-B2-2 (Variation 2 of PE-A4-B2) 

PE-B1 
  * PE-B2-A 
    - PE-B3-A1 
      - PE-B4-A1-1 (Variation 1 of PE-B4-A1) 
      - PE-B4-A1-2 (Variation 2 of PE-B4-A1) 
    - PE-B3-A2 
      - PE-B4-A2-1 (Variation 1 of PE-B4-A2) 
      - PE-B4-A2-2 (Variation 2 of PE-B4-A2) 
  * PE-B2-B 
    - PE-B3-B1 
      - PE-B4-B1-1 (Variation 1 of PE-B4-B1) 
      - PE-B4-B1-2 (Variation 2 of PE-B4-B1) 
    - PE-B3-B2 
      - PE-B4-B2-1 (Variation 1 of PE-B4-B2) 
      - PE-B4-B2-2 (Variation 2 of PE-B4-B2)
 
this allows you to easily decipher the Transfer (n) as in the last example is the fourth transfer from the original dish no matter which subsequent iteration(s) that it came from






And keep notes on performing cultures and discard those that aren't.

Has come in handy when you get a blob or super squat expression, to go back through it's lineage and discard them, confidently .
Rarely does it ever get that long in practice unless excessive cleaning is necessary.


Edited by LewDoja (11/10/24 11:03 PM)

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