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OfflineCleverName
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martial arts
    #2718097 - 05/23/04 01:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

There are many different but equally valid reasons for studying any martial art, such as for self defense, for spiritual growth or enlightenment, for general physical health, for self-confidence and more. Different martial arts, and even different styles within a particular martial art, emphasize different aspects.

im not looking to compete. im looking more for the aspects of health, and spiritual growth.

so i was thinkng aikido might be the best art for me. aikido is considered one of the more spiritual martial arts and has been called 'moving zen'.

if there is someone who knows about this stuff, what do you think? what are the major differences between the arts?


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2718105 - 05/23/04 01:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

oooooh boy!


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2718125 - 05/23/04 01:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yeah...


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2718131 - 05/23/04 01:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

ok, here's the dill:

Aikido is not the best for you. Along with the training methods come a weird semi-religious concept. I'll take your interest as a chance to profile/promote chinese internal martial arts. These include Taijiquan (tai chi chuan) bagua zhang (8 trigram palm) and xingyi quan.

Within these styles are many branches, for example:

Taijiquan comes from chen village in henan province. The top level masters have always been chen stylists, but there are also yang style (most common) wu style, wu-hao style (or hao style) and sun style. All styles ultimately come from chen style. The Taoist taiji society does not practice taiji. They are a hoax designed to take your money.

Anyway, the lowdown on internal martial arts is this: Knowledge from ancient figthing methods, daoist breathing and energy work plus chinese medical knowledge were combined, and they produced the highest level martial arts. The main factor defining internal from external martial arts is the full-body power generated, the use of the entire body as a weapon, and relaxation as an imporant key to power.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2718156 - 05/23/04 01:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

here's a video of a high-level american bagua guy taking someone out at a demonstration. While the founder of aikido was commiting genocide in China he got a glimpse of ba gua and used that inspiration to create aikido.

Bk Frantzis ba gua fighting


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2718176 - 05/23/04 02:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This site has 3 clips of a top level taiji guy demonstrating parts of his set. The taiji set, or form, is your main training method.

chen xiaowang chen style taijiquan


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Offlinehairs
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2718185 - 05/23/04 02:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i would say do a combo of tai chi or yoga for spiritual and brazilian jiu jitsu or some form of submission grappling for physical

no one art will fit your wants


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If I didn't have such a great drive (golf) the American people would thing I wasn't working so hard. George W. Bush


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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2718345 - 05/23/04 03:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'd personally recommend starting with a hard style first.It introduces you to the concepts and physical aspects of martial arts and it in my opinion will prepare you for the softer styles which are much more complex and can take many years to unlock the real power behind the movements.One can mimic the soft movements but doing so with true internal power takes alot of practice and sometimes many years to accomplish for some people.Soft styles can be difficult for some people to get the techniques down just right and often require a few to many years to become efficient at.Hard styles are much more direct and powerful blows can be dealt with much less practice than soft styles.Soft styles work with chi.Hard styles use muscular power.Soft styles also often require developing your chi to get power out of your moves and it can be more commitment and time.

Thats if you are seeking martial power at all.If you are only seeking health benefits from internal styles,then choose an internal style if you wish.

I first took tae kwon do for many years (11 years now) and now I've decided to a more internal style so currently I am working on learning shaolin white crane.White crane is much more difficult to grasp as it works with alot of various chi and jin.It also requires special training exercises to be able to draw any real power form the techniques.However it is much more devastating than hard styles in some ways.I have started to get a few techniques down well but it will be years before I can say I've mastered them sufficiently.


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"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2720653 - 05/23/04 11:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i would say do a combo of tai chi or yoga for spiritual and brazilian jiu jitsu or some form of submission grappling for physical

This suggestion is rife with misconceptions concerning martial arts and the nature of spirituality.

Hypnotoad: You're using some confusing terms. Hard does not mean external nor does soft mean internal. Hard and soft are inadequate categories as I've never come across a martial art that was completely hard or completely soft. People often believe that taiji is a soft style, but that's only because the yang style that spread to north america was like that (and completely foolish). Yang chen fu was seen practicing cannon fist in 1911 in Beijing, but he never taught it. He was higher level than any yang master following him, so it seems pretty obvious that by removing the hard aspect of the style, he created the impotent form of taijiquan most common the world over.

Another problem is that groups like the taoist taiji society pop up and pass what they practice off as taiji, while simultaneously saying that their practice is not a martial art. Taijiquan translates as "supreme ultimate fist" so how can you tell me it could be meant to be anything other than a war art?

Also, the Chinese government invented wushu and simplified 24 movement and 42 movement taijiquan in an effort to create a performance based competition art instead of real fighting arts. Traditionally martial artists are a pain in the ass of corrupt regimes so you can see the motivation there. They promoted the spread of 24 movement (instead of the traditional 108 movement) taiji as healthy excercise, but the movements were thrown together in such a fashion that the forms lost their true meaning. Also, with such a short form the meditative aspects have been removed.

Though all styles of taijiquan contain fa jing (explosive movements.. translated as energy expressions) chen style taiji is of course closest to what the great taiji warriors of the chen village trained. The greatest taiji master of the last century, chen fa ke, practiced chen style.. shouldn't you?

Soft styles work with chi.Hard styles use muscular power.Soft styles also often require developing your chi to get power out of your moves and it can be more commitment and time.

Often people make the mistake of believing that internal martial arts use qi in fighting. This is a myth. Qi is a byproduct. Internal martial arts train the structure of the body to work as a unified whole. To do this one needs to hunt down and remove tension from the body. Tension is moving forward and holding back at the same time. Once the tension has been removed the body will start to work together, and the six harmonies will be achieved. The six harmonies are what defines an internal from an external martial art. They are: Hands move with feet, elbows move with knees, and hips move with shoulders. This allows the martial artist to wield incredible power.

Meditation and qi gong as part of the training regiment do not qualify a martial art as internal. Though energy work is key in a system such as white crane, it does not have the six harmonies therefore does not have full-body power therefore is not internal.*This opinion comes from reading yang jwing ming's book on white crane. I never found structure (in the sense I'm using) mentioned, nor the six harmonies, and being familiar with some other of his works have seen that the level he teaches at is technique, not internal.

Thats if you are seeking martial power at all

It's very misleading to direct someone towards external martial arts. If you want to go high level, you should train internal martial arts, end of story. Internal martial arts are superior methods to gain skill, if you train external martial arts you will likely end up hurting yourself, having long-term health detriments, and you'll be wasting your time because you won't gain powerful martial arts skill.

But before all this you need a good club and a good teacher. What kind of commitment do you want to put out to learn, clevername?


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2720778 - 05/23/04 11:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

3 days a week for at least a few years, if not indefinetly. i boxed for 15 years, but sloweddown and eventually stopped in college...so i dont know if those skills will transfer over at all.
but yeah, at least 3 days a week, if not more. if i do it, i want to do it right...i want to really get in it, you know.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2720806 - 05/24/04 12:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Mixomatosis knows his shit.. listen to that guy
If you want to really get into it, go with the chen style taijiquan as he said..
You might also be interested in chi-sao ('sticking hands') or wing chun kung fu which was a major influence for Bruce Lee.


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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2720977 - 05/24/04 12:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I meant internal/external although external styles are mostly if not fully hard and internal styles are mostly if not fully soft.Soft/hard terms are used where I'm from rather than internal/external.Some styles like white crane are both soft and hard.

Without adequate chi one can have no true internal power.The manifestions of the technique will be weak especiall compared to its potential.

"It's very misleading to direct someone towards external martial arts. If you want to go high level, you should train internal martial arts, end of story. Internal martial arts are superior methods to gain skill, if you train external martial arts you will likely end up hurting yourself, having long-term health detriments, and you'll be wasting your time because you won't gain powerful martial arts skill."

I meant immediate physical power like a majority of people seek.You can use external style techniques fairly quickly in combat if one needed to.The techniques of internal arts cannot be applied to combat fairly quickly at all.It takes alot longer to get the "feel" of the technique.Until then one is left with a very weak manifestation of power.This is why in feudal japan it was customary to train external styles first then internal styles.This was because internal styles were easily mastered and allowed the warriors to go into combat much sooner were as internal students wouldnt be able to really fight effectively in combat for approx. 3 years.With internal styles it can be frustrating for new students.It really depends on the person.

"It's very misleading to direct someone towards external martial arts. If you want to go high level, you should train internal martial arts, end of story. Internal martial arts are superior methods to gain skill, if you train external martial arts you will likely end up hurting yourself, having long-term health detriments, and you'll be wasting your time because you won't gain powerful martial arts skill."


I consider being able to kill an opponent with a single strike fair martial power.What good is even 1,000 techniques if one technique ends the fight before it begins?I have been able to successfully defend myself without injury other than bruises even in situations with multiple attackers.I can also break multiple bricks fairly easily.My kicks obviously being the most powerful and devastating.For many reasons,A) I am lower body dominant B) tae kwon do focuses more on kicking C) Legs can generally develop more physical power than the arms.While I agree internal arts can take practioners to very high levels,it takes a great many more years and alot more training.Progress is also much more gradual.The only way physical damage can really result from external styles is if one practice damaging forms of Qigong or one does not take care not to overextend leg and arm tendons.Internal styles can cause serious injury as well if care is not taken or if a technique is preformed wrong.No matter what style there is always risk of injury.External runs the risk of damaging muscles and tendons while internal can damage joints.Risk of injury from either style is minimal.Common sense and a bit fo caution prevents injury.

If someone wants to be able to use martial arts for self defense.I'd recommend a very balanced program.IE Eventually learn internal and external arts both.Grappling is also good to learn to be a balanced fighter however some internal arts cover grappling as well as some external arts.


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2721748 - 05/24/04 09:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
While the founder of aikido was commiting genocide in China




Hmm... are you talking about the revolution Morihei tried to start in Mongolia? I dont know what you're talking about. Genocide?! Explain.

BTW, weird religion concepts in aikido? I trained in the art for several years. Its a very circular and dynamic art that teaches you a lot of how the body works. Not to mention its fun and extremely peaceful. It would take a long time to be confident in your technique in order to use it in self defense but it is a very beneficial art. It just seems to me you're very anti-Japanese.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2721752 - 05/24/04 09:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I meant internal/external although external styles are mostly if not fully hard and internal styles are mostly if not fully soft.Soft/hard terms are used where I'm from rather than internal/external.Some styles like white crane are both soft and hard.


No, you are wrong. The internal martial arts, xingyi, bagua, and taiji all contain hard and soft. Being an internal art does not mean being soft. Here's a quote in an interview with Feng Zhiquiang, a student of Chen fa ke's and a high level chen style taiji master:

"All Taiji styles emphasize Opening and Closing (Kai-He), Empty and Solid (Xu-Shi), Hardness and Softness (Gang-Rou), Contracting and Opening (Qu-Shen), Yin and Yang, etc."

There you have it, straight from the proverbial horse's mouth.

This is why in feudal japan it was customary to train external styles first then internal styles.

This is not true. Japan never developed any internal styles of martial arts. They are Chinese.

"You can use external style techniques fairly quickly in combat if one needed to.The techniques of internal arts cannot be applied to combat fairly quickly at all.It takes alot longer to get the "feel" of the technique."

That you need to slave away slowly moving your arms for years before you get an inkling of martial arts skill with internals is false. In the case of taijiquan, it was developed by villagers to defend themselves from roving bandits. Xingyi liu he quan was used by the muslim Chinese minority to defend themselves from bandits and oppressive regimes. Ba gua was developed by a member of the emperor's kitchen staff and quickly became known as a body guard style. When the empress Dowager fled the forbidden city in.. what was it.. 1910, she had a ba gua master as a body guard.

Nowadays people like to think of these styles as soft ie weak, but you'll notice those promoting taijiquan as a soft, yielding style have no martial arts ability.. so connect the dots.

Not only would the old masters of these styles be rolling rocks in the fields all day and tilling the earth with primitive tools, but they'd be doing all kinds of strength training. When bandits are roving around the countryside you don't have time to spend 10 years to learn how to fight. Chen fa ke trained with a huge 16 foot long pole. He had big heavy maces that nowadays nobody can pick up. Another chen style training method is turning a big 400 pound cauldron.

What good is even 1,000 techniques if one technique ends the fight before it begins?

Internal martial arts do not train techniques. The techniques emerge naturally, there is no "if he does b, you do c, if he counters with f then go to m and if that doesn't work follow it up with q.

Legs can generally develop more physical power than the arms.

False. With the six harmonies and seven fists of internal martial arts, the entire body is equally powerful. Foot, hand, head, shoulder, stomach, it doesn't matter what you hit with.

Eventually learn internal and external arts both.Grappling is also good to learn to be a balanced fighter however some internal arts cover grappling as well as some external arts.

There is no reason to waste your life with training external martial arts. I see it time and time again.. people converting, dropping all their previous taekwon do, kung fu, or karate training realizing that it is wholly innefective versus internal martial arts.

Clevername.. you can bet that if you want to start a martial arts adventure you're going to have to travel. This is a given as internal masters able to teach effective fighting and willing to train students hard are very few and far between.


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2721787 - 05/24/04 10:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

what would be a good way for me to find a skillful master?


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2721873 - 05/24/04 10:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

there is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. pwned


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: martial arts [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #2721884 - 05/24/04 10:51 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

is that so


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2721909 - 05/24/04 10:56 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

there is nothing more deadly then a theoretical martial artist


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2721991 - 05/24/04 11:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I will have to agree with Maxi 100%
I practiced akido for 3 years and is a very nice martial art, in all that time the were teaching me about "ki", but in all honestly I never felt anything.
7 years a go I started to practice Tai-chi and qi-gong, and it changed my life.
Chi was no longer a theory was a real living sensation that will transform your body and mind.
Any decent Tai-chi instructor will also teach qi-gong (they go hand in hand)
After researching and sampling several styles, I steeled with dayang qi-gong and is what I practice twice a day (that for the spiritual and healing part) and for the martial go with taichi or bagua, make sure you choose a fighting taichi style and not a medical. (like yang or chen)
I would not waste my time with hard styles, don?t be fool by the slow movements of taichi (its is harder to do slow than fast), they will become lighting speed, in an actual combat, plus the real benefit more that self defense is to learn to flow your inner energy.
You literally will be glowing after practice, after you unblock your main channels.
Good luck.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2722153 - 05/24/04 12:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

clevername.. you have to do research. Research is the only way. I suggest training with people in your area and hopefully a club you find could be a launching pad into the greater internal martial arts community. Check out what's in your area and research history.

china from inside
This site is geared towards the experienced martial artist, but as a total newb you can start learning about internals. Read everything.

emptyflower forums
This is a forum full of goofs, but you may find some stuff there.. links to videos and stuff at least.

dai family xing yi kid
Cool video of a kid practicing squatting monkey..

internal arts trip to China
Pricey trip.. interesting site though

Feng's USA club
Don't know if this is relevant, but I imagine they got some good stuff going on.


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