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OfflineHypnoToad
Stranger

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 325
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2722804 - 05/24/04 12:43 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"The internal martial arts, xingyi, bagua, and taiji all contain hard and soft."

I dont classify them as internal however yes they are considered internal arts.However internal arts do not focus on physical power/muscular power whereas hard techniques use physical power.

Aikido is a japanese internal art.There are also others.

"That you need to slave away slowly moving your arms for years before you get an inkling of martial arts skill with internals is false. In the case of taijiquan, it was developed by villagers to defend themselves from roving bandits. Xingyi liu he quan was used by the muslim Chinese minority to defend themselves from bandits and oppressive regimes. Ba gua was developed by a member of the emperor's kitchen staff and quickly became known as a body guard style. When the empress Dowager fled the forbidden city in.. what was it.. 1910, she had a ba gua master as a body guard."


I dont mean an inkling I mean real power in the techniques.IE sufficiently learning the techniques to develop awesome power from them.Grasping the movement of chi and learning to move swiftly without tension.To become strong in internal techniques it takes a very long time to truly emulate the power from them.

I certainly do not think soft styles are weak at all.However I feel external styles have usefulness.

Yang styles of internal arts or also hard and soft arts tend to develop strength as some techniques use muscular strength which is why they are called hard techniques becuase they use muscular power and tension whereas soft techniques use lack of tension and a direction of chi.

"Internal martial arts do not train techniques. The techniques emerge naturally, there is no "if he does b, you do c, if he counters with f then go to m and if that doesn't work follow it up with q."

External styles are not like this either.However there are techniques in all arts.So yes internal arts do train techniques.Otherwise what do you call Strike palm yo ask blessings or any other tai chi movement?Surely it is a technique.

"False. With the six harmonies and seven fists of internal martial arts, the entire body is equally powerful. Foot, hand, head, shoulder, stomach, it doesn't matter what you hit with."

None of the styles I am familar with use the six harmonies.


One can take an external technique and apply it almost immediately.However you cannot do this with internal styles.The manifestations are weak.Until you really grasp the movement which takes months or years to truly grasp,it is a weak manifestation that cannot be used in combat.


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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OfflineBrugman
antisobrietarian
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Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 15,887
Loc: the land up over Flag
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2722952 - 05/24/04 01:15 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

dai family xing yi kid
Cool video of a kid practicing squatting monkey..

HHahaha.. I'm sorry but wtf?


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,121
Loc: red earth painted with mi...
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2722961 - 05/24/04 01:18 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

thanks for the links and help. i will get back to this thread when i find a dojo and tell you whats going on then.

Shroomnoob, are you saying that you doubt me? if so, ive exercise everyday for eight years, im literally in the best shape of anyone i know...im strong, athletic and very flexible. i believe a well-tuned body is as important as a well-tuned mind, and like i mentioned before, i grew up boxing, i know hand to hand combat well. i have no reason to make stuff up for a message board, im not like that.

if thats not what you mean, then i just dont understand why youd even post that.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2722984 - 05/24/04 01:28 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"This is not true. Japan never developed any internal styles of martial arts. They are Chinese."

What about bushido? That can easily be considered an internal martial art.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: martial arts [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2723141 - 05/24/04 02:07 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Aikido is a japanese internal art.
Aikido is not an internal martial art.

what do you call Strike palm yo ask blessings or any other tai chi movement?Surely it is a technique.
Wrong again. In taiji no movements are limited to one use, for example, a palm strike. There is no such thing as a "palm strike" in taiji. The names of the movements are like "white crane spreads its wings" and "golden rooster stands on one leg." These are poetic communications of the underlying feeling of the movement. The taiji sets are buffets of movements with different feels and characters. No any move could be said to have only one or any limited quantity of applications. If you are being taught taiji like "this is a punch, this is a palm strike, this is a block" then you aren't learning the art in all its infinite depth and power.

To become strong in internal techniques it takes a very long time to truly emulate the power from them.
This is an issue involving the low-level of most internal arts teachers. It doesn't need to take a long time, and arts like xingyi quan can develop powerful fighting ability in a very short amount of time. As short as any external style, if not shorter, and in the long term, its completely superior to external styles. You are wrong.

None of the styles I am familar with use the six harmonies.
You're starting to figure this out then. You aren't familiar with any internal martial arts, you're misusing the term thinking that energy work combined with fighting = internal art. This is not the case. With the six harmonies, full-bodied power is developed. Full body power requires relaxation, relaxation means the qi does not stagnate, that the qi moves. This is where qi gong comes into the training. Meditation quiets the mind so that higher levels of concentration can be achieved which can then be applied to opening and relaxing the joints with the goal of unifying, or harmonizing them, in movement. Through this full-body, or internal, power can be realized. This is internal power, not shooting laser beams of qi.

soft techniques use lack of tension and a direction of chi
again, soft and hard is a foolish, useless way to categorize martial arts.

What about bushido? That can easily be considered an internal martial art.
how so?


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OfflineLux
member
Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 189
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2723559 - 05/24/04 03:29 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I'm a competitive Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighter and Muay Thai/Vale Tudo kickboxer training for no holds barred fighting competitions. It's simply what I love to do but it's also a very spiritual part of my life. I resent it being called worthless as it's probably the greatest thing in my life right now. It is very much an act of zen when I train/spar, forcing me to keep in the moment. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu I'm sure is considered a hard style but, assuming you're learning from someone who's any good, focuses heavily on relaxation while fighting, controlling your breathing and using energy only when it's necessary. It actually has a lot of the concepts of taiji, such as using momentum and when watching two high level competitors it's really beautiful to see how they flow. I consider it to be an extremely effective form of ground fighting taiji. It's not in any sense a brute form of fighting, technique is what it's all about. I have briefly taken chen style taiji before from a very good instructor but I stopped because it was too far from me. I can say that I really enjoyed it and I've been able to incorporate things into my fighting which have helped a lot but I cannot imagine sparring with some of the people I spar with using simply taiji.


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OfflineFatNug
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Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 150
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2723640 - 05/24/04 03:52 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.russianmartialart.com/

http://www.systemamartialart.com/

I've done BJJ, Shaolin Kung Fu, and some filipino stuff. Now I do Krav Maga (Israeli), and am about to pick up some classes in an art used by the Russian Special forces, called Systema. Read up on it on the sites, it's all types of complicated to describe, but I'm very very excited to be able to experience this system. It's the most complete art on the face of the planet (no flames please). They use eliptical movement, open hand striking and fluidity like Bagua, and Taichi. They use redirection of energy like Aikido does. They groundfight and train real world protection like BJJ and Krav Maga, and most fun, at the higher lievels they use Psi or "Chi/Qi" as sole means of ending conflict. Its maad cool to watch people get dropped with the wave of a hand. I can't wait to learn that stuff. Much cleaner than breaking someones jaw into 3 parts, like Krav Maga would have me do...Check it out.


--------------------
================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: martial arts [Re: FatNug]
    #2723712 - 05/24/04 04:08 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I've checked out some systema martial arts videos. I consider it to be in the category of "hocus pocus," at least the hand waving psychic attacks, anyway.

Lux: Don't get me wrong, if it's martial arts, it's kickass. I don't mean "worthless". I recently went to spectate at a large international martial arts tournament and I spent a lot of time watching the jiu jitsu guys. They were a lot more interesting than any of the other fighting rings and were clearly the most dedicated, hardest training people there, which is always appreciable no matter the art. Of course you can see the direction I lean..

It's the most complete art on the face of the planet
And you know this without training it.. neat. What's your experience crossing hands with systema guys that leads you to believe this?


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2723981 - 05/24/04 05:04 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

how so?

well, its a martial art that focuses primarily on internal development


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
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Re: martial arts [Re: Positronius]
    #2724196 - 05/24/04 06:07 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

there are alot more internal styles than just the chinese ones.

anyhow, i'm not very advanced in anything so i shouldn't be talking shit. however, my life's ambition should i choose to continue doing martial arts is buaga and the internal vahda stuff.

martial arts wise if you boxed, you probably just want to have fun. do BBJ, that shit is mad fun.

if you want to be able to jump ten feet in the air and kill poeple with a finger tap go find a good chinese internal school somewhere and practice for the next 70 years.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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OfflineHypnoToad
Stranger

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 325
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2724333 - 05/24/04 06:54 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

How is aikido not internal?

"soft techniques use lack of tension and a direction of chi
again, soft and hard is a foolish, useless way to categorize martial arts. "

I wasnt categorizing martial arts.They ARE referred to as soft and hard techniques and jins in many books,videos and by many teachers.Soft techniques are one that use absence of tension using ligaments to develop power acting like a whip.However timing must be learned or else damage to ligaments can occur if one uses wrong timing.Hard techniques use muscular power to generate or develop power.Soft-hard techniques start out soft and end as a hard manifestation and Hard-soft techniques are just the opposite.This information comes from accomplished martial arts masters.I am familar with some internal arts but not in alot of depth because I am not studying them currently so I really have no need to.

I know the names of the movements I have tai chi books right here on my desk.I also have ALOT of other books on many arts.Strike palm to ask blessings is one of the movements.

"This is an issue involving the low-level of most internal arts teachers. It doesn't need to take a long time, and arts like xingyi quan can develop powerful fighting ability in a very short amount of time. As short as any external style, if not shorter, and in the long term, its completely superior to external styles. You are wrong."

I'm sorry mixo but I must say you are wrong saying it doesnt take longer.Either that or you have yet to witness someone demonstarte true internal power.I know all about tai chi,taiji or any other synonym you want to use for the chinese words for Grand Ultimate Fist.

"You're starting to figure this out then. You aren't familiar with any internal martial arts, you're misusing the term thinking that energy work combined with fighting = internal art"

No I'm not actually.Im not too familar with aikido.However I know of Tai Chi,Ba gua Zhang and Hsing-I as well as other internal arts.I am aware of the mechanisms involved in the movements.I am aware of how they work just fine.I however am bad at explaining things.

"Full body power requires relaxation, relaxation means the qi does not stagnate, that the qi moves. This is where qi gong comes into the training. Meditation quiets the mind so that higher levels of concentration can be achieved which can then be applied to opening and relaxing the joints with the goal of unifying, or harmonizing them, in movement. Through this full-body, or internal, power can be realized. This is internal power, not shooting laser beams of qi.
:

I am not talking about shooting laser beams of chi.I was referring to leading chi to the extremities.Chi is responible for the power manifested.This is why Qigong AKA energy work is incorporated into internal styles.


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: martial arts [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2724670 - 05/24/04 08:25 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Positronius: What is "internal development?"

Truekimbo said: "there are alot more internal styles than just the chinese ones."

Internal martial arts is a term to describe a select few systems of chinese martial arts characterized by fighting movements using full body power through achievement of the six harmonies combined with chinese medical knowledge and daoist (taoist) meditation methods.

A martial art using soft yielding techniques and relaxation to bring with qi to the extremeties of the body is not necessarily an internal martial art.

A martial art system focusing on energy work is not necessarily an internal martial art.

A martial art system using psychic cosmic energy directed in a focused beam at the opponent's mind is not necessarily an internal martial art.

They ARE referred to as soft and hard techniques and jins in many books,videos and by many teachers.
I'm fully aware of this and the inherent sillyness these categories promote. My question for you is: Is taijiquan a soft or a hard martial art according to this system of classification?

I am familar with some internal arts but not in alot of depth because I am not studying them currently
Well then why not take the chance to learn some internal art theory here instead of making me repeat myself?

I have tai chi books right here on my desk.
You have a taiji book? Wow. I've never read a worthwhile taiji book what's it called?

I'm sorry mixo but I must say you are wrong saying it doesnt take longer.Either that or you have yet to witness someone demonstarte true internal power.
No, not all internal martial arts take a longer time to learn than externals, especially not if trained traditionally. Remember that these peasants had to defend themselves RIGHT THE FUCK NOW taking years to develop skills is a stupid fucking idea, as bandits don't wait till you're good to rape your woman and steal your monkey. This is all the circumstantial evidence needed to shut your argument down. It's the level of the teachers that is slowing down learning and people's unwillingness to fukin' give 'er!

As for my not having witnessed true internal power, why the fuck you think I'm trashing externals so much? You think cause I have a taiji book on my desk? NO! It's cause I HAVE seen true internal power, and like so many nut-hungry squirells.. I... WANT... IT!!

I know all about tai chi,taiji
You hilarious joker! This goes directly against your other statement: "I am familar with some internal arts but not in alot of depth" OWNED!

Let me repeat that for effect:

"I am familar with some internal arts but not in alot of depth"

OK!! DONE! SO... WHY ARE YOU MAKING ME REPEAT MYSELF CONSANTLY??

I am aware of how they work just fine

And yet.. you have never heard of the six harmonies OMG LOL ROFLMAO OMFG HTY NNNBJ WTHAYTA.

Thanks for coming out, Toad, but seriously, my fine feathered friend, you're going to put me into catatonia soon


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Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny Flag
Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2725204 - 05/24/04 10:09 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

jeez mix. you're obviously not progressing very well in your internal work.

most poeple i know including my tai chi teacher (trained by master chan, or is it chen i can't remeber) would define internal martial arts and any arts that use jing and chi developement. so don't take the semantics so seriously.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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OfflineHypnoToad
Stranger

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 325
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2725212 - 05/24/04 10:10 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Tai chi is one of the few internal arts I am familiar with.I have read many books on the subject as well as watched many videos and I've even practiced it a bit.However I dont find it to be for me at all.I prefer arts like ba gua and white crane since I do not have the chance to learn ba gua and only have the chance to learn white crane I am learning white crane.



The six harmonies weren't mentioned in the tai chi books Ive read.However they also may not be complete as well.Some books do not cover anything but the techniques and others leave out things like
any book can.

"I'm fully aware of this and the inherent sillyness these categories promote. My question for you is: Is taijiquan a soft or a hard martial art according to this system of classification?"

It is hard and soft.However I find it highly pretentious to say many other accomplished martial artists and martial arts masters are wrong even thought they have been practicing before you were even born and have more experience than you.

"You hilarious joker! This goes directly against your other statement: "I am familar with some internal arts but not in alot of depth" OWNED!"

Ok I should rephrase I know alot about tai chi however I didnt say I know everything.I dont know everything about the philosophy or history of tai chi.

"No, not all internal martial arts take a longer time to learn than externals, especially not if trained traditionally. Remember that these peasants had to defend themselves RIGHT THE FUCK NOW taking years to develop skills is a stupid fucking idea, as bandits don't wait till you're good to rape your woman and steal your monkey. This is all the circumstantial evidence needed to shut your argument down. It's the level of the teachers that is slowing down learning and people's unwillingness to fukin' give 'er!

As for my not having witnessed true internal power, why the fuck you think I'm trashing externals so much? You think cause I have a taiji book on my desk? NO! It's cause I HAVE seen true internal power, and like so many nut-hungry squirells.. I... WANT... IT!!"

Does this mean you dont have it?I thought it was easy and just as fast maybe even faster than external arts.On average external arts are grasped extremely well within a year or two for most people however internal arts take longer.Even people who have practiced under world famous martial artist in china state in their books and written literature and articles and etc that it takes much longer to really grasp internal styles.I see this all over many books and articles from prominent martial artists.Even BK who is quite experienced in many arts.It takes years to reach an appreciable level in internal arts.It has ALWAYS been tradition to train external first then internal after in many areas.Some schools in china will not accept students who havent trained and mastered and external style first.


"You have a taiji book? Wow. I've never read a worthwhile taiji book what's it called?"

Worthwhile VS not is an opinion.Not everyone shares your opinion.

"And yet.. you have never heard of the six harmonies OMG LOL ROFLMAO OMFG HTY NNNBJ WTHAYTA."

One doesnt have to know the philosophy behind somethign to understand the mechanisms of how something works.Do you need to know the philosophy of driving a car to drive it?No.

Its amazing how you always seem to skip any valid points in anyone's posts and focus on any what you feel to be invalid points or mistakes.Grow up Mixo.Mature discussion doesnt attack of make fun of people.


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: martial arts [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2726841 - 05/25/04 08:23 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

would define internal martial arts and any arts that use jing and chi developement.
That would include.. all martial arts so..

Mature discussion doesnt attack of make fun of people.
Sorry.. bored discussion on the other hand..

It is hard and soft.
Ok.. so you can see how martial arts don't fall easily into these categories, correct? They are useless categories, you've just proved that so..

I thought it was easy and just as fast maybe even faster than external arts.
There are infinite levels, it's not like one day you have "internal power" and then boom you plateau and never go anywhere. I was saying that martial arts skill can be gained in a short amount of time with internal arts training, not full internal power.. reading comprehension please..

I find it highly pretentious
I prefer the term "arrogant."

Do you need to know the philosophy of driving a car to drive it?No.
True, but martial arts isn't just getting into a body and walking down a street. Martial arts is cleaning, repairing, and improving the vehicle's performance beyond the norm. To replace an engine you need to know the ins and outs of the cars. You get -3 for bringing up a metaphor that turns around and bites you in the ass.

It has ALWAYS been tradition to train external first then internal after in many areas.Some schools in china will not accept students who havent trained and mastered and external style first.
False. Don't use absolutes like "always" because you know you can't be totally correct. When Donghaichuan started teaching bagua all his students were already high level martial artists but that's because bagua is a principle-based add-on skill.

This does not apply to hsing-yi, xingyi, or taiji schools. Unless of course the master doesn't want to give away his secrets. This is very common.. a teacher will make up some story like "oh no, you have to train this shit training before I teach you anything."

I have read many books on the subject as well as watched many videos and I've even practiced it a bit.
Therefore you have excellent perspective and SHOULD continue this argument.


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Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2727237 - 05/25/04 10:35 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Hey Mixamatosis, are you going to answer my questions? Check page 1 of this post. If you dont want to answer, thats ok too :smile:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineHypnoToad
Stranger

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 325
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2727384 - 05/25/04 11:19 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"That would include.. all martial arts so.."

External arts dont tend to develop or use jing or chi development.

"Sorry.. bored discussion on the other hand.."

There is just too much negativity in the world as it is, especially at the shroomery sometimes.I hate to see people add more negativity.

"Ok.. so you can see how martial arts don't fall easily into these categories, correct? They are useless categories, you've just proved that so.."

I look at the styles as either hard,soft or hard and soft meaning a mixture of both.It's easier for me to use these terms when thinking or talking about martial arts and its sometimes easier for others to think in these terms as well,but yes I agree that they can be quite inaccurate.

"True, but martial arts isn't just getting into a body and walking down a street. Martial arts is cleaning, repairing, and improving the vehicle's performance beyond the norm. To replace an engine you need to know the ins and outs of the cars. You get -3 for bringing up a metaphor that turns around and bites you in the ass."

True it is cleaning,reapiring and improving performance beyond the norm.However one only needs to know how to do it not the theories or philosophies behind it.You can fix an engine just knowing how to take it apart and knowing how the engine works but you don't need to know the philosophy or theories behind an engine to fix it.

"I prefer the term "arrogant.""

lol Ok I dub thee Mr. Arrogance.However arrogance is not neccessarily a bad thing.


When I said it had always been tradition I should've clarified what I meant.I was referring to warring periods.It was tradition for them to train external first because they needed to get them onto the battle field as soon as possible.

Yes some skill can be obtained in a relatively short amount of time practicing internal arts although I personally feel it is much harder to learn than external arts simply because there is so much more to learn like timing,chi development and leading chi,and so on besides the movement rather than just the movement as in external arts.I also feel progress in internal arts is more gradual than external arts.However I do agree it depends on the individual and how hard and often they train among other things.

"This does not apply to hsing-yi, xingyi, or taiji schools. Unless of course the master doesn't want to give away his secrets. This is very common.. a teacher will make up some story like "oh no, you have to train this shit training before I teach you anything.""

I feel sometimes it is done to test the virtue and dedication f the student.What teacher wants to waste time with a student who isnt willing to work hard and learn and doesnt take it seriously.Sometimes however I feel with some styles benefit is obtained from learning external styles first.I wont disagree however that internal arts reach MUCH higher levels than external arts.Internal arts development never really ends.However external training tends to reach a plateau or wall at a certain point.The only way to go further is to incorporate qigong or other internal aspects or to train internally.But then you are no longer training externally so you are not furthering external skills you are simply taking a new path and learning new skills.

It is often quite hard for beginners to grasp some movements or even alot of the movements and mechanisms.But with practice and constant hard work it will come.The harder one works and the more one practices the faster the results obviously.

Some prominent martial artists recommend both internal and external training.It seems to be mostly preference in alot of cases.I however share their opinion for some reasons.


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
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Registered: 05/28/03
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2728260 - 05/25/04 03:09 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Well, aside from the mild arguments, this is a great post and I've learned a ton.

As for the original question, I think you've gotten a pile of great adivice here. I've trained in Kempo, Jeet Kun Do, Muai Thai, Kali, American Karate (Tae Kwan Do, essentially), and a small amount of Akido and Tai Chi. I've found each of them fun and useful in very different ways. After studying on and off for most of my adult life, I think that if I had my druthers, I'd study both Tai Chi (with someone who uses Chi Gung as part of the training) and Akido full time. The combination - for me - would seem to work the physical, the mind-body connection, and the focus, all of which are what I'm looking for, in the most balanced fashion.

Don't think you have to decide on one art and stick with it forever. Find a studio/dojo with people you like and trust, study for a while, and don't be afraid to move on and try something else. It's likely that few, if any of us, are going to become masters - so remember... it's a process that will last for the rest of your life. There's no hurry.

Namaste.


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
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Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: martial arts [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2729689 - 05/25/04 08:26 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Genocide?! Explain.

This was a general reference to the atrocities commited by the japanese during their empire-building rampage throughout mainland Asia in an attempt by me to associate Mr. Peace himself with his role in a very questionable military campaign. Though it could be said my comments are propaganda, they don't reflect my opinion of the martial merits of aikido rather they point towards the inherent hypocracy of the human race and people's blindfolded rush forward to worship idealized humans at the altars of sycophany.

BTW, weird religion concepts in aikido? I trained in the art for several years. Its a very circular and dynamic art that teaches you a lot of how the body works. Not to mention its fun and extremely peaceful.
This comes from my very limited experience conversing with aikido guys, one in particular gave me this opinion as his dogmatic assertions on the universe and the nature of peace were heavily entwined with his martial arts which gave him a limited modus operandi in his life and martial arts. My only beef with aikido is they seem to work with the assumption that the attacker will launch forward with lots of momentum and obvious energy, and I question the focus on receptivity. Sometimes the most peaceful thing you can do is rush forward and schmuck someone in the face with a tire iron, and aikido doesn't seem to include this.

Of course, what do I know? I feel that peacefullness is not inherent in any martial art but involves the artist's conduct outside his training, the same way a knife isn't inherently agressive. The concept of "peaceful" or "defensive" martial arts is used to market aikido but I feel this is misleading and likely the art's wisdom has been dilluded (as they all have been). And I don't have anything against japanese at all.. I just feel that the Chinese took martial arts to a higher level.

hypnotoad: I think we're experiencing some misunderstanding stemming from my insistence to use internal/external and you using hard/soft. These are different ways to classify arts and are not interchangeable.

I do agree it depends on the individual and how hard and often they train among other things.
I agree. When Chen fa ke was 14 he was weak, unhealthy and hardly able to practice. When he overheard his uncles discussing how sad it was he was unable to continue his lineage (his father, grandfather, great grandfather and so were the highest level taiji masters of all time) he decided he was going to bust his ass training and within 3 years and very little instruction (his father was away) he managed to surpass all the other youth of his generation.

Most people nowadays practice internal arts as floaty energy stuff. What they miss is that the movements themselves done at low level ARE external martial arts moves, and if they trained physically and built strength and speed with their taiji forms, they would gain martial skill quickly, at least as fast as external martial artists.

Xingyi is such that from the very beginniing the applications of the movements are strong and obvious so within a short amount of time the xingyi practicioner can gain martial skill. Taiji not as much, but there is a lot of training people neglect. To prove this all you have to do is go around to some taiji clubs, watch them move and push hands and see what percentage out there actually have fighting ability. You'll find the percentage is very small, as there aren't a lot of people training like they used to when they had the threat of bandits to motivate them.

Some prominent martial artists recommend both internal and external training.

I believe this is so because internal arts haven't been transmitted as faithfully as externals, so in most people's practice they need to supplement their floaty taiji and such with whatever.



Really I have no problem with people training whatever. It's all martial arts, and if you're training then I commend you whatever my narrow-minded opinions on these arts may be.


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Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2729934 - 05/25/04 09:23 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

You stick to your opinions like glue. Perhaps, you should do some research on aikido...pretty good stuff.

I've never seen anyone who has mastered true internal power, and I'm sortof curious as to what you've seen :smile:. I also dont believe two true martial artists would fight each other in this century. Martial artists are generally very peaceful people (with the exception of competition or battle).

Morihei Ueshiba used the Shinto religion as his stepping stone towards enlightenment and preached it to his personal students. That is why there are some references to that religion in the, perhaps, most traditional schools. But, most of aikido works very dynamically in any situation. It is basically learning to use your opponents body as a simple machine (lever, pulley, etc...). When mastered, you will use the least amount of effort to achieve the maximum amount of effect. Some teachers use light/ki visualization techniques to develop this concept in their pupils mind, so for some it is considered an internal art.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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