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OfflineSquatting_Otter
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Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers?
    #2331729 - 02/13/04 06:55 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Hey, any of you guys practice taiji, xingyi, ba gua, or qi gong? Anybody wanna know anything about them? Anybody want to discuss martial arts?


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OfflineRenegade8
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Squatting_Otter]
    #2331753 - 02/13/04 07:06 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I don't practice any of 'em, but I've been curious about that kind of thing lately & I'd love to know more.


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I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Squatting_Otter]
    #2331768 - 02/13/04 07:10 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

i've seen qi gong mentioned here

yeah if you want to supply some info on these practices, or a link, that would be cool  :grin:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineSquatting_Otter
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Renegade8]
    #2331789 - 02/13/04 07:18 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I'd highly reccomend that you take a look at internal martial arts over external arts. Stay away from sportified martial arts like Judo, Taekwondo, wushu, etc. It's all good if you are after athletic pursuits, but I'm finding more and more that internal arts go far beyond athletics, though they are demanding physically.

In China at an unspecified date 100s of years ago people began combining shaolin martial arts techniques with daoist and buddhist meditation and used Chinese medical sciences to explain the workings of energy in the body. Often people will claim that martial arts are spiritual, but in most cases that's not true. In most cases the martial artist will meditate and practice martial techniques with no thread connecting the two. Internal martial arts require relaxation and a complete unity in the body. To achieve this meditation and qi gong is required, and as the practice continues the martial arts themselves will become qi gong or "energy work." This is why Taiji (tai chi) is practiced so slowly and people always wonder how it could be used in combat. There are so many principles to be practiced that the forms need to be run through slowly.

Taiji has been popularized as a health pursuit. This is too bad, and some would say it's killing the art. 99% of taiji practitioners have no idea. This can make it hard to sift through the crap to find a good teacher. It requires research.


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OfflineSquatting_Otter
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2331818 - 02/13/04 07:30 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Qi gong is often misunderstood. People hear "energy work" and they immediately start thinking something mystical is going on, but that's not the case at all. Qi (Chi (pronounced chee) or Ki in japanese) is the product of the interaction of yin and yang. When oxygen leaves the blood stream and enters the cell and CO2 leaves into the blood, you've got an interaction of yin and yang. In chinese medicine, blood carries the qi. Qi in the blood case nourishes the cells and keeps them alive. this is only one example of what qi is.

Often you hear people explain that qi is the vital life energy of the body. This is true, but this statement can be misleading. No qi means no life, because no qi means no interaction of yin (the flesh in the case of the body) and yang (the mind).

Qi gong sets could simply be stretching that opens up cramped muscles (ie: eight pieces of brocade which is the name of a famous qi gong set). It might be iron body, one approach to that is using the qi to condense muscle tissue. It might be simple movement designed to stimulate the nervous system and increase circulation. Not all qi gong is healthy, though it's often marketed as such. Some qi gongs use qi to achieve things and then doesn't return qi to the body. Some types of iron shirt qi gong burn off qi supplies and can produce problems for people later in life.

Probably the best and most well-known internal martial arts page online: www.chinafrominside.com


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Squatting_Otter]
    #2331827 - 02/13/04 07:32 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

thanks  :thumbup:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Squatting_Otter]
    #2333151 - 02/14/04 02:02 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

understanding the balance of yin and yang.. surely you must recognize the need for external martial arts in this dimension. Where there is the acupuncture to heal there is the dim mak to damage.
I have practiced qi gong, and have also studied some chin na, jiu jitsu, jeet kune do, etc..as well as meddling in acupressure, herbs and human physiology.
I originally began with external martial arts but when I discovered tai chi and qi gong.. I was loving it. I don't really think there is anything wrong with learning many styles of martial arts. I love the cleansing and energy work of qi gong but chin na and grappling and such is just plain fun and invigorating in a different way.

A good mixture of styles to see all of your options, and then using all the knowledge to form your own individual expression of spirit and self through body..develop your own martial art..


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OfflineSquatting_Otter
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2333237 - 02/14/04 02:30 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

shroomism..

No I don't see the need for external martial arts for balance. It's not as though there isn't physical movement in internal arts. The styles of martial arts I practice make my legs huge and my waste has developed powerful turning muscles. Taiji's energies make it an ideal mid-range grappling and hitting style, there is no lack of physically demanding partner work.

In my experience external martial arts are either completely lacking in good principles of movement or lack the spark that makes me feel that I'm doing more than practicing a sport. To high level internal martial artists I've met external arts are nothing, so I just couldn't see myself taking time away from training internals.

Saying that for balance one needs to train external arts is like saying that if you want to be a good writer you should spend time reading crappy books. Studying the more superficial arts won't help you go deep.

Please elaborate on why one needs to practice the external arts for balance.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Squatting_Otter]
    #2333273 - 02/14/04 02:43 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

you may have your own opinion, but I'm pretty sure internal martial arts don't teach elitism. What external martial arts have you dealt with? Do not ALL martial arts originate from gong fu, an external art?

My friend, without the darkness, there would be no light. The styles of martial arts I practice make me able to counter attacks, manipulate joints, tendons.. are you familiar with chin na? The art of dislocation and chi cavity strikes..

Please explain how all external martial arts are "superficial" and "inferior" to internals. I do think that the mainstream has corrupted many arts, but explain how gong fu, jiu jitsu, dim mak, jeet kune do, and so on, are so inefficient?

Saying that for balance one needs to train only internal arts is like saying that if you want to be a good writer you should only read fiction... why limit yourself?


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OfflineSquatting_Otter
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2335218 - 02/14/04 07:55 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Hmmm.. elitism. There's a low blow. 'Cause we love using book metaphors, you calling me elitist is like calling a book reviewer elitist because he gave a bad review. External martial arts I've studied:

Cha Chuan:


Shaolin:


Chin na is a class of techniques found in any well-rounded fighting system internal or external. You seem to be discussing it here as an external martial art, which is innacurate. Please divulge your understanding of how internal and external martial arts rely on one another.

you said:"Please explain how all external martial arts are "superficial" and "inferior" to internals"

Internal martial arts contain everything external arts contain. However, unlike internals, externals don't unify all the joints of the body together and often require brute force to get the job done. Some, like wing chun, don't, although being an external art a smaller fighter would still lose to a larger opponent. This inherent weakness is what pushed Bruce Lee to develop his martial arts in another direction. If it weren't for his violent temper, I've recently learned, he would have been accepted as a xingyi student, the internal art he was most intrigued with. Apparently his plan was to quit externals when he was 35, but he died at 32.

So, I wonder about your understanding of internal martial arts, which you've practiced, and why you would consider a martial artist's art poorly balanced without the external arts. I find this a very strange point of view considering how all internals are practiced externally to begin with. I suspect I'll disagree with your understanding of internals.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Squatting_Otter]
    #2335733 - 02/14/04 11:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

just recently got into tai chi myself. mind blowing stuff. i have a teacher that was trained by master chan (chen?), i hear he's rather elite.

also, in my own very limited experiance external arts are useless compared to internal arts, since a person can develope internal power that is infinitely greater than a persons ability to develope external power.

also, i'm very pleased to see you are somewhat off on the history of internal arts, i have been a sporadic student of a very rare indian internal art: vadha, that may be completely dead outside of 2 masters (with the occupation of tibet, where the last known monastary that teached it resided, its kind of up in the air whether the poeple that taught it there died)
vadha is fucking crazy by the way, but the way they teach it where i live doesn't let you learn the internal craziness till you master a certain level of the external stuff. instead of using lots of internal power you develope the ability to completely disrupt another person's mind. the teachers up here appear pretty arrogent, and it seems like an internal art with no enlightenment base hehehe. just killing power.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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OfflineSquatting_Otter
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2335922 - 02/15/04 02:03 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Do you know the full name of your teacher's teacher? Maybe Chen man Chin:



He was the most well-known first wave master to come over to North America as I understand. Maybe you mean someone else, though.

Vadha sounds interesting.. kinda bizarre. How do they go about disrupting their opponents minds? punching them in the face?.. no, I suspect you mean something else. I'm curious.


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OfflineCrazyJulio
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Squatting_Otter]
    #2336949 - 02/15/04 12:14 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I practice qi gong, tai chi, shaolin kung fu. Although if I could find a teacher, I would MUCH rather become adept at xingyiquan (hsing i chuan) or pa kua than tai chi.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: CrazyJulio]
    #2337574 - 02/15/04 03:55 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

personally, i can't wait to learn pa kua (or ba gua as i pronounce it) but i want a firm grounding in tai chi first.. :frown:

the few ba gua movements i've learned are super awesome, its all energetic spiraling


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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OfflineCrazyJulio
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2337815 - 02/15/04 04:56 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, I wish I could find a teacher!  It looks so fun to do.  Hsing i chuan too.  Although, a good teacher that teaches the martial aspect of tai chi would be nice.  It's so hard to find a good martial arts teacher that will teach what you're looking for :frown:


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OfflineSquatting_Otter
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2341029 - 02/16/04 02:25 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Shroomism are you done with this discussion or something? I'd like to know the answer to my questions about how you see martial arts and how external fits in with internal.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Squatting_Otter]
    #2341091 - 02/16/04 02:39 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Internal vs. External
INTERNAL- Blending with an attack EXTERNAL - Stopping an attack
INTERNAL- Yielding EXTERNAL- Struggling
INTERNAL- Power comes from within EXTERNAL- Power comes from outside
INTERNAL- Relaxed EXTERNAL- Tense
INTERNAL- Fluid EXTERNAL- Defined
INTERNAL- Slow forms EXTERNAL- Fast kata
INTERNAL- Finesse EXTERNAL- Power
INTERNAL- Indirect EXTERNAL- Direct
INTERNAL- Circular EXTERNAL- Linear
INTERNAL- Accepting what is EXTERNAL- Fighting against it
INTERNAL- Acknowledging the limitations of the self EXTERNAL- Denying any vulnerabilities
INTERNAL - Winning without fighting EXTERNAL- Destroying your opponent

I'm not going to argue with you. Neither type of martial art is "better" then the other. Both can be equally effective in the same situation. Most martial artists start with an external art and move on to internals. The externals I have studied are Jeet Kune Do, Shaolin Gong Fu, Jiu-Jitsu.. are you telling me these arts have no place and are completely ineffective?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Squatting_Otter]
    #2341142 - 02/16/04 02:49 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/sep92/internal/internal.html

To the Chinese, it is pointless to talk about one art being either hard or soft. At their highest levels, all arts contain elements of both, the Chinese claim.

so I think arguing about internals vs externals is pretty pointless. Also realize I am only playing devil's advocate, as I have moved on to mostly internals.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2341170 - 02/16/04 02:56 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

> To the Chinese, it is pointless to talk about one art being either hard or soft. At their highest levels, all arts contain elements of both, the Chinese claim.

I knife cannot cut without itself becoming dull.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineSquatting_Otter
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Re: Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2342632 - 02/16/04 07:59 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not going to argue with you.

I beg you to be open-minded! We both might learn something from this discussion and there's certainly no harm in the two of us having to come out and explain our personal understandings of these martial arts.

To start I have quite a few problems with your list of differences between internal and external arts. In fact, I may be crossing the line by saying so but I suspect you don't have a solid understanding of what an internal martial art is. Call me a dick, but I wonder where you get your information. These declarations of mine are perfectly open to rebuttal, but here are some of my problems with your list:

INTERNAL- Slow forms EXTERNAL- Fast kata

Xingyi quan, Bagua Zhang, and some Taiji quan are all practiced fast.

In the case of bagua, it's impossible to do the core training, circle walking, slowly because the correct movement of the legs require momentum from at least moderately fast continuous footwork.

I've never seen nore heard of anybody practicing xingyi quan slowly, except for qi gong like zhang zuang where there is no movement whatsoever, but that's probably not what you're talking about.

Most taiji is practiced slowly, and it lends itself well to being practiced slowly but in the oldest style and some of the newer styles there are often fast expressions of power called fa jing. Chen Fa Ke, the 17th generation standard bearer of Chen family taiji is purported to have demonstrated the 1st and 2nd set (84 moves and 73 moves respectively) in 3 minutes each at the age of 68 or 69 (can't remember exactly). That is faaaaaaast. I've read that he used to practice his form 30 times a day most of his life. You don't have enough hours to practice a taiji long form slowly 30 times in a day.

INTERNAL- Circular EXTERNAL- Linear

There are many linear movements in the styles of xing yi I have seen.

INTERNAL- Finesse EXTERNAL- Power

This is extremely innacurate. External arts don't have anywhere near the power of internals. This I know from personal experience. And lots of external arts, in fact ALL of them, require finesse. Take those chin na techniques you mentioned. It takes finesse to pull one of those, or a dim mak cavity strike, correct? I suggest you read up on Chen Fa Ke. He is an often-writ of example of a high level internal martial artist capable of seemingly inhuman feats of strength.

EXTERNAL- Destroying your opponent

Umm.. have you ever seen xing yi quan, taiji quan, or bagua zhang? I'm wondering..

INTERNAL- Power comes from within EXTERNAL- Power comes from outside

Actually, power comes from your body.


Please fill me in on your experience with internal martial arts. I found your list to contain lots of confusing terminology coupled with myths and common misconceptions surrounding internal martial arts. Where do you get this information? If you don't want to tell me who you learn your martial arts from that's of course totally understandable on the internet like this.

As far as I can tell so far, the biggest misunderstanding about internals you seem to have, is that they don't use muscular power. This is wrong. Myself being as low level as I am, my internal arts are very external. Over the coming years I hope to relax my body more and move with a strong internal connection, but I'm doing fine at my current level.

The externals I have studied are Jeet Kune Do, Shaolin Gong Fu, Jiu-Jitsu.. are you telling me these arts have no place and are completely ineffective?

I am telling you that. The more internal martial artists I meet, the more I feel that way. Skill levels of internal martial arts are just plain too high. If what you say is true, about you moving more towards the internals, then more power to you. As you branch out more and meet more people and find a high level internal teacher, I guarantee you'll move towards my point of view. Trust me on this one!


PS: Karate magazines are bad places to quote about chinese internals. And soft doesn't mean internal and hard external. Like the article said, all great arts contain both. Chen style contains "silk reeling" movements as well as the "cannon fist." There's your yin/yang if I ever did see it.


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