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OfflineCleverName
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martial arts
    #2718097 - 05/23/04 11:28 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

There are many different but equally valid reasons for studying any martial art, such as for self defense, for spiritual growth or enlightenment, for general physical health, for self-confidence and more. Different martial arts, and even different styles within a particular martial art, emphasize different aspects.

im not looking to compete. im looking more for the aspects of health, and spiritual growth.

so i was thinkng aikido might be the best art for me. aikido is considered one of the more spiritual martial arts and has been called 'moving zen'.

if there is someone who knows about this stuff, what do you think? what are the major differences between the arts?


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2718105 - 05/23/04 11:31 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

oooooh boy!


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2718125 - 05/23/04 11:43 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

yeah...


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2718131 - 05/23/04 11:47 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

ok, here's the dill:

Aikido is not the best for you. Along with the training methods come a weird semi-religious concept. I'll take your interest as a chance to profile/promote chinese internal martial arts. These include Taijiquan (tai chi chuan) bagua zhang (8 trigram palm) and xingyi quan.

Within these styles are many branches, for example:

Taijiquan comes from chen village in henan province. The top level masters have always been chen stylists, but there are also yang style (most common) wu style, wu-hao style (or hao style) and sun style. All styles ultimately come from chen style. The Taoist taiji society does not practice taiji. They are a hoax designed to take your money.

Anyway, the lowdown on internal martial arts is this: Knowledge from ancient figthing methods, daoist breathing and energy work plus chinese medical knowledge were combined, and they produced the highest level martial arts. The main factor defining internal from external martial arts is the full-body power generated, the use of the entire body as a weapon, and relaxation as an imporant key to power.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2718156 - 05/23/04 11:55 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

here's a video of a high-level american bagua guy taking someone out at a demonstration. While the founder of aikido was commiting genocide in China he got a glimpse of ba gua and used that inspiration to create aikido.

Bk Frantzis ba gua fighting


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2718176 - 05/23/04 12:03 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

This site has 3 clips of a top level taiji guy demonstrating parts of his set. The taiji set, or form, is your main training method.

chen xiaowang chen style taijiquan


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Offlinehairs
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2718185 - 05/23/04 12:04 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

i would say do a combo of tai chi or yoga for spiritual and brazilian jiu jitsu or some form of submission grappling for physical

no one art will fit your wants


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If I didn't have such a great drive (golf) the American people would thing I wasn't working so hard. George W. Bush


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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2718345 - 05/23/04 01:03 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I'd personally recommend starting with a hard style first.It introduces you to the concepts and physical aspects of martial arts and it in my opinion will prepare you for the softer styles which are much more complex and can take many years to unlock the real power behind the movements.One can mimic the soft movements but doing so with true internal power takes alot of practice and sometimes many years to accomplish for some people.Soft styles can be difficult for some people to get the techniques down just right and often require a few to many years to become efficient at.Hard styles are much more direct and powerful blows can be dealt with much less practice than soft styles.Soft styles work with chi.Hard styles use muscular power.Soft styles also often require developing your chi to get power out of your moves and it can be more commitment and time.

Thats if you are seeking martial power at all.If you are only seeking health benefits from internal styles,then choose an internal style if you wish.

I first took tae kwon do for many years (11 years now) and now I've decided to a more internal style so currently I am working on learning shaolin white crane.White crane is much more difficult to grasp as it works with alot of various chi and jin.It also requires special training exercises to be able to draw any real power form the techniques.However it is much more devastating than hard styles in some ways.I have started to get a few techniques down well but it will be years before I can say I've mastered them sufficiently.


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"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2720653 - 05/23/04 09:31 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

i would say do a combo of tai chi or yoga for spiritual and brazilian jiu jitsu or some form of submission grappling for physical

This suggestion is rife with misconceptions concerning martial arts and the nature of spirituality.

Hypnotoad: You're using some confusing terms. Hard does not mean external nor does soft mean internal. Hard and soft are inadequate categories as I've never come across a martial art that was completely hard or completely soft. People often believe that taiji is a soft style, but that's only because the yang style that spread to north america was like that (and completely foolish). Yang chen fu was seen practicing cannon fist in 1911 in Beijing, but he never taught it. He was higher level than any yang master following him, so it seems pretty obvious that by removing the hard aspect of the style, he created the impotent form of taijiquan most common the world over.

Another problem is that groups like the taoist taiji society pop up and pass what they practice off as taiji, while simultaneously saying that their practice is not a martial art. Taijiquan translates as "supreme ultimate fist" so how can you tell me it could be meant to be anything other than a war art?

Also, the Chinese government invented wushu and simplified 24 movement and 42 movement taijiquan in an effort to create a performance based competition art instead of real fighting arts. Traditionally martial artists are a pain in the ass of corrupt regimes so you can see the motivation there. They promoted the spread of 24 movement (instead of the traditional 108 movement) taiji as healthy excercise, but the movements were thrown together in such a fashion that the forms lost their true meaning. Also, with such a short form the meditative aspects have been removed.

Though all styles of taijiquan contain fa jing (explosive movements.. translated as energy expressions) chen style taiji is of course closest to what the great taiji warriors of the chen village trained. The greatest taiji master of the last century, chen fa ke, practiced chen style.. shouldn't you?

Soft styles work with chi.Hard styles use muscular power.Soft styles also often require developing your chi to get power out of your moves and it can be more commitment and time.

Often people make the mistake of believing that internal martial arts use qi in fighting. This is a myth. Qi is a byproduct. Internal martial arts train the structure of the body to work as a unified whole. To do this one needs to hunt down and remove tension from the body. Tension is moving forward and holding back at the same time. Once the tension has been removed the body will start to work together, and the six harmonies will be achieved. The six harmonies are what defines an internal from an external martial art. They are: Hands move with feet, elbows move with knees, and hips move with shoulders. This allows the martial artist to wield incredible power.

Meditation and qi gong as part of the training regiment do not qualify a martial art as internal. Though energy work is key in a system such as white crane, it does not have the six harmonies therefore does not have full-body power therefore is not internal.*This opinion comes from reading yang jwing ming's book on white crane. I never found structure (in the sense I'm using) mentioned, nor the six harmonies, and being familiar with some other of his works have seen that the level he teaches at is technique, not internal.

Thats if you are seeking martial power at all

It's very misleading to direct someone towards external martial arts. If you want to go high level, you should train internal martial arts, end of story. Internal martial arts are superior methods to gain skill, if you train external martial arts you will likely end up hurting yourself, having long-term health detriments, and you'll be wasting your time because you won't gain powerful martial arts skill.

But before all this you need a good club and a good teacher. What kind of commitment do you want to put out to learn, clevername?


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2720778 - 05/23/04 09:59 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

3 days a week for at least a few years, if not indefinetly. i boxed for 15 years, but sloweddown and eventually stopped in college...so i dont know if those skills will transfer over at all.
but yeah, at least 3 days a week, if not more. if i do it, i want to do it right...i want to really get in it, you know.


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2720806 - 05/23/04 10:09 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Mixomatosis knows his shit.. listen to that guy
If you want to really get into it, go with the chen style taijiquan as he said..
You might also be interested in chi-sao ('sticking hands') or wing chun kung fu which was a major influence for Bruce Lee.


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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2720977 - 05/23/04 10:58 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I meant internal/external although external styles are mostly if not fully hard and internal styles are mostly if not fully soft.Soft/hard terms are used where I'm from rather than internal/external.Some styles like white crane are both soft and hard.

Without adequate chi one can have no true internal power.The manifestions of the technique will be weak especiall compared to its potential.

"It's very misleading to direct someone towards external martial arts. If you want to go high level, you should train internal martial arts, end of story. Internal martial arts are superior methods to gain skill, if you train external martial arts you will likely end up hurting yourself, having long-term health detriments, and you'll be wasting your time because you won't gain powerful martial arts skill."

I meant immediate physical power like a majority of people seek.You can use external style techniques fairly quickly in combat if one needed to.The techniques of internal arts cannot be applied to combat fairly quickly at all.It takes alot longer to get the "feel" of the technique.Until then one is left with a very weak manifestation of power.This is why in feudal japan it was customary to train external styles first then internal styles.This was because internal styles were easily mastered and allowed the warriors to go into combat much sooner were as internal students wouldnt be able to really fight effectively in combat for approx. 3 years.With internal styles it can be frustrating for new students.It really depends on the person.

"It's very misleading to direct someone towards external martial arts. If you want to go high level, you should train internal martial arts, end of story. Internal martial arts are superior methods to gain skill, if you train external martial arts you will likely end up hurting yourself, having long-term health detriments, and you'll be wasting your time because you won't gain powerful martial arts skill."


I consider being able to kill an opponent with a single strike fair martial power.What good is even 1,000 techniques if one technique ends the fight before it begins?I have been able to successfully defend myself without injury other than bruises even in situations with multiple attackers.I can also break multiple bricks fairly easily.My kicks obviously being the most powerful and devastating.For many reasons,A) I am lower body dominant B) tae kwon do focuses more on kicking C) Legs can generally develop more physical power than the arms.While I agree internal arts can take practioners to very high levels,it takes a great many more years and alot more training.Progress is also much more gradual.The only way physical damage can really result from external styles is if one practice damaging forms of Qigong or one does not take care not to overextend leg and arm tendons.Internal styles can cause serious injury as well if care is not taken or if a technique is preformed wrong.No matter what style there is always risk of injury.External runs the risk of damaging muscles and tendons while internal can damage joints.Risk of injury from either style is minimal.Common sense and a bit fo caution prevents injury.

If someone wants to be able to use martial arts for self defense.I'd recommend a very balanced program.IE Eventually learn internal and external arts both.Grappling is also good to learn to be a balanced fighter however some internal arts cover grappling as well as some external arts.


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"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2721748 - 05/24/04 07:21 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
While the founder of aikido was commiting genocide in China




Hmm... are you talking about the revolution Morihei tried to start in Mongolia? I dont know what you're talking about. Genocide?! Explain.

BTW, weird religion concepts in aikido? I trained in the art for several years. Its a very circular and dynamic art that teaches you a lot of how the body works. Not to mention its fun and extremely peaceful. It would take a long time to be confident in your technique in order to use it in self defense but it is a very beneficial art. It just seems to me you're very anti-Japanese.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2721752 - 05/24/04 07:29 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I meant internal/external although external styles are mostly if not fully hard and internal styles are mostly if not fully soft.Soft/hard terms are used where I'm from rather than internal/external.Some styles like white crane are both soft and hard.


No, you are wrong. The internal martial arts, xingyi, bagua, and taiji all contain hard and soft. Being an internal art does not mean being soft. Here's a quote in an interview with Feng Zhiquiang, a student of Chen fa ke's and a high level chen style taiji master:

"All Taiji styles emphasize Opening and Closing (Kai-He), Empty and Solid (Xu-Shi), Hardness and Softness (Gang-Rou), Contracting and Opening (Qu-Shen), Yin and Yang, etc."

There you have it, straight from the proverbial horse's mouth.

This is why in feudal japan it was customary to train external styles first then internal styles.

This is not true. Japan never developed any internal styles of martial arts. They are Chinese.

"You can use external style techniques fairly quickly in combat if one needed to.The techniques of internal arts cannot be applied to combat fairly quickly at all.It takes alot longer to get the "feel" of the technique."

That you need to slave away slowly moving your arms for years before you get an inkling of martial arts skill with internals is false. In the case of taijiquan, it was developed by villagers to defend themselves from roving bandits. Xingyi liu he quan was used by the muslim Chinese minority to defend themselves from bandits and oppressive regimes. Ba gua was developed by a member of the emperor's kitchen staff and quickly became known as a body guard style. When the empress Dowager fled the forbidden city in.. what was it.. 1910, she had a ba gua master as a body guard.

Nowadays people like to think of these styles as soft ie weak, but you'll notice those promoting taijiquan as a soft, yielding style have no martial arts ability.. so connect the dots.

Not only would the old masters of these styles be rolling rocks in the fields all day and tilling the earth with primitive tools, but they'd be doing all kinds of strength training. When bandits are roving around the countryside you don't have time to spend 10 years to learn how to fight. Chen fa ke trained with a huge 16 foot long pole. He had big heavy maces that nowadays nobody can pick up. Another chen style training method is turning a big 400 pound cauldron.

What good is even 1,000 techniques if one technique ends the fight before it begins?

Internal martial arts do not train techniques. The techniques emerge naturally, there is no "if he does b, you do c, if he counters with f then go to m and if that doesn't work follow it up with q.

Legs can generally develop more physical power than the arms.

False. With the six harmonies and seven fists of internal martial arts, the entire body is equally powerful. Foot, hand, head, shoulder, stomach, it doesn't matter what you hit with.

Eventually learn internal and external arts both.Grappling is also good to learn to be a balanced fighter however some internal arts cover grappling as well as some external arts.

There is no reason to waste your life with training external martial arts. I see it time and time again.. people converting, dropping all their previous taekwon do, kung fu, or karate training realizing that it is wholly innefective versus internal martial arts.

Clevername.. you can bet that if you want to start a martial arts adventure you're going to have to travel. This is a given as internal masters able to teach effective fighting and willing to train students hard are very few and far between.


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2721787 - 05/24/04 08:09 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

what would be a good way for me to find a skillful master?


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2721873 - 05/24/04 08:48 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

there is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. pwned


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: martial arts [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #2721884 - 05/24/04 08:51 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

is that so


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2721909 - 05/24/04 08:56 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

there is nothing more deadly then a theoretical martial artist


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2721991 - 05/24/04 09:15 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I will have to agree with Maxi 100%
I practiced akido for 3 years and is a very nice martial art, in all that time the were teaching me about "ki", but in all honestly I never felt anything.
7 years a go I started to practice Tai-chi and qi-gong, and it changed my life.
Chi was no longer a theory was a real living sensation that will transform your body and mind.
Any decent Tai-chi instructor will also teach qi-gong (they go hand in hand)
After researching and sampling several styles, I steeled with dayang qi-gong and is what I practice twice a day (that for the spiritual and healing part) and for the martial go with taichi or bagua, make sure you choose a fighting taichi style and not a medical. (like yang or chen)
I would not waste my time with hard styles, don?t be fool by the slow movements of taichi (its is harder to do slow than fast), they will become lighting speed, in an actual combat, plus the real benefit more that self defense is to learn to flow your inner energy.
You literally will be glowing after practice, after you unblock your main channels.
Good luck.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2722153 - 05/24/04 10:10 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

clevername.. you have to do research. Research is the only way. I suggest training with people in your area and hopefully a club you find could be a launching pad into the greater internal martial arts community. Check out what's in your area and research history.

china from inside
This site is geared towards the experienced martial artist, but as a total newb you can start learning about internals. Read everything.

emptyflower forums
This is a forum full of goofs, but you may find some stuff there.. links to videos and stuff at least.

dai family xing yi kid
Cool video of a kid practicing squatting monkey..

internal arts trip to China
Pricey trip.. interesting site though

Feng's USA club
Don't know if this is relevant, but I imagine they got some good stuff going on.


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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2722804 - 05/24/04 12:43 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"The internal martial arts, xingyi, bagua, and taiji all contain hard and soft."

I dont classify them as internal however yes they are considered internal arts.However internal arts do not focus on physical power/muscular power whereas hard techniques use physical power.

Aikido is a japanese internal art.There are also others.

"That you need to slave away slowly moving your arms for years before you get an inkling of martial arts skill with internals is false. In the case of taijiquan, it was developed by villagers to defend themselves from roving bandits. Xingyi liu he quan was used by the muslim Chinese minority to defend themselves from bandits and oppressive regimes. Ba gua was developed by a member of the emperor's kitchen staff and quickly became known as a body guard style. When the empress Dowager fled the forbidden city in.. what was it.. 1910, she had a ba gua master as a body guard."


I dont mean an inkling I mean real power in the techniques.IE sufficiently learning the techniques to develop awesome power from them.Grasping the movement of chi and learning to move swiftly without tension.To become strong in internal techniques it takes a very long time to truly emulate the power from them.

I certainly do not think soft styles are weak at all.However I feel external styles have usefulness.

Yang styles of internal arts or also hard and soft arts tend to develop strength as some techniques use muscular strength which is why they are called hard techniques becuase they use muscular power and tension whereas soft techniques use lack of tension and a direction of chi.

"Internal martial arts do not train techniques. The techniques emerge naturally, there is no "if he does b, you do c, if he counters with f then go to m and if that doesn't work follow it up with q."

External styles are not like this either.However there are techniques in all arts.So yes internal arts do train techniques.Otherwise what do you call Strike palm yo ask blessings or any other tai chi movement?Surely it is a technique.

"False. With the six harmonies and seven fists of internal martial arts, the entire body is equally powerful. Foot, hand, head, shoulder, stomach, it doesn't matter what you hit with."

None of the styles I am familar with use the six harmonies.


One can take an external technique and apply it almost immediately.However you cannot do this with internal styles.The manifestations are weak.Until you really grasp the movement which takes months or years to truly grasp,it is a weak manifestation that cannot be used in combat.


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"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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OfflineBrugman
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2722952 - 05/24/04 01:15 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

dai family xing yi kid
Cool video of a kid practicing squatting monkey..

HHahaha.. I'm sorry but wtf?


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2722961 - 05/24/04 01:18 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

thanks for the links and help. i will get back to this thread when i find a dojo and tell you whats going on then.

Shroomnoob, are you saying that you doubt me? if so, ive exercise everyday for eight years, im literally in the best shape of anyone i know...im strong, athletic and very flexible. i believe a well-tuned body is as important as a well-tuned mind, and like i mentioned before, i grew up boxing, i know hand to hand combat well. i have no reason to make stuff up for a message board, im not like that.

if thats not what you mean, then i just dont understand why youd even post that.


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2722984 - 05/24/04 01:28 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"This is not true. Japan never developed any internal styles of martial arts. They are Chinese."

What about bushido? That can easily be considered an internal martial art.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2723141 - 05/24/04 02:07 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Aikido is a japanese internal art.
Aikido is not an internal martial art.

what do you call Strike palm yo ask blessings or any other tai chi movement?Surely it is a technique.
Wrong again. In taiji no movements are limited to one use, for example, a palm strike. There is no such thing as a "palm strike" in taiji. The names of the movements are like "white crane spreads its wings" and "golden rooster stands on one leg." These are poetic communications of the underlying feeling of the movement. The taiji sets are buffets of movements with different feels and characters. No any move could be said to have only one or any limited quantity of applications. If you are being taught taiji like "this is a punch, this is a palm strike, this is a block" then you aren't learning the art in all its infinite depth and power.

To become strong in internal techniques it takes a very long time to truly emulate the power from them.
This is an issue involving the low-level of most internal arts teachers. It doesn't need to take a long time, and arts like xingyi quan can develop powerful fighting ability in a very short amount of time. As short as any external style, if not shorter, and in the long term, its completely superior to external styles. You are wrong.

None of the styles I am familar with use the six harmonies.
You're starting to figure this out then. You aren't familiar with any internal martial arts, you're misusing the term thinking that energy work combined with fighting = internal art. This is not the case. With the six harmonies, full-bodied power is developed. Full body power requires relaxation, relaxation means the qi does not stagnate, that the qi moves. This is where qi gong comes into the training. Meditation quiets the mind so that higher levels of concentration can be achieved which can then be applied to opening and relaxing the joints with the goal of unifying, or harmonizing them, in movement. Through this full-body, or internal, power can be realized. This is internal power, not shooting laser beams of qi.

soft techniques use lack of tension and a direction of chi
again, soft and hard is a foolish, useless way to categorize martial arts.

What about bushido? That can easily be considered an internal martial art.
how so?


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OfflineLux
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2723559 - 05/24/04 03:29 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I'm a competitive Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighter and Muay Thai/Vale Tudo kickboxer training for no holds barred fighting competitions. It's simply what I love to do but it's also a very spiritual part of my life. I resent it being called worthless as it's probably the greatest thing in my life right now. It is very much an act of zen when I train/spar, forcing me to keep in the moment. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu I'm sure is considered a hard style but, assuming you're learning from someone who's any good, focuses heavily on relaxation while fighting, controlling your breathing and using energy only when it's necessary. It actually has a lot of the concepts of taiji, such as using momentum and when watching two high level competitors it's really beautiful to see how they flow. I consider it to be an extremely effective form of ground fighting taiji. It's not in any sense a brute form of fighting, technique is what it's all about. I have briefly taken chen style taiji before from a very good instructor but I stopped because it was too far from me. I can say that I really enjoyed it and I've been able to incorporate things into my fighting which have helped a lot but I cannot imagine sparring with some of the people I spar with using simply taiji.


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OfflineFatNug
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2723640 - 05/24/04 03:52 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.russianmartialart.com/

http://www.systemamartialart.com/

I've done BJJ, Shaolin Kung Fu, and some filipino stuff. Now I do Krav Maga (Israeli), and am about to pick up some classes in an art used by the Russian Special forces, called Systema. Read up on it on the sites, it's all types of complicated to describe, but I'm very very excited to be able to experience this system. It's the most complete art on the face of the planet (no flames please). They use eliptical movement, open hand striking and fluidity like Bagua, and Taichi. They use redirection of energy like Aikido does. They groundfight and train real world protection like BJJ and Krav Maga, and most fun, at the higher lievels they use Psi or "Chi/Qi" as sole means of ending conflict. Its maad cool to watch people get dropped with the wave of a hand. I can't wait to learn that stuff. Much cleaner than breaking someones jaw into 3 parts, like Krav Maga would have me do...Check it out.


--------------------
================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: FatNug]
    #2723712 - 05/24/04 04:08 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I've checked out some systema martial arts videos. I consider it to be in the category of "hocus pocus," at least the hand waving psychic attacks, anyway.

Lux: Don't get me wrong, if it's martial arts, it's kickass. I don't mean "worthless". I recently went to spectate at a large international martial arts tournament and I spent a lot of time watching the jiu jitsu guys. They were a lot more interesting than any of the other fighting rings and were clearly the most dedicated, hardest training people there, which is always appreciable no matter the art. Of course you can see the direction I lean..

It's the most complete art on the face of the planet
And you know this without training it.. neat. What's your experience crossing hands with systema guys that leads you to believe this?


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2723981 - 05/24/04 05:04 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

how so?

well, its a martial art that focuses primarily on internal development


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: martial arts [Re: Positronius]
    #2724196 - 05/24/04 06:07 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

there are alot more internal styles than just the chinese ones.

anyhow, i'm not very advanced in anything so i shouldn't be talking shit. however, my life's ambition should i choose to continue doing martial arts is buaga and the internal vahda stuff.

martial arts wise if you boxed, you probably just want to have fun. do BBJ, that shit is mad fun.

if you want to be able to jump ten feet in the air and kill poeple with a finger tap go find a good chinese internal school somewhere and practice for the next 70 years.


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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2724333 - 05/24/04 06:54 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

How is aikido not internal?

"soft techniques use lack of tension and a direction of chi
again, soft and hard is a foolish, useless way to categorize martial arts. "

I wasnt categorizing martial arts.They ARE referred to as soft and hard techniques and jins in many books,videos and by many teachers.Soft techniques are one that use absence of tension using ligaments to develop power acting like a whip.However timing must be learned or else damage to ligaments can occur if one uses wrong timing.Hard techniques use muscular power to generate or develop power.Soft-hard techniques start out soft and end as a hard manifestation and Hard-soft techniques are just the opposite.This information comes from accomplished martial arts masters.I am familar with some internal arts but not in alot of depth because I am not studying them currently so I really have no need to.

I know the names of the movements I have tai chi books right here on my desk.I also have ALOT of other books on many arts.Strike palm to ask blessings is one of the movements.

"This is an issue involving the low-level of most internal arts teachers. It doesn't need to take a long time, and arts like xingyi quan can develop powerful fighting ability in a very short amount of time. As short as any external style, if not shorter, and in the long term, its completely superior to external styles. You are wrong."

I'm sorry mixo but I must say you are wrong saying it doesnt take longer.Either that or you have yet to witness someone demonstarte true internal power.I know all about tai chi,taiji or any other synonym you want to use for the chinese words for Grand Ultimate Fist.

"You're starting to figure this out then. You aren't familiar with any internal martial arts, you're misusing the term thinking that energy work combined with fighting = internal art"

No I'm not actually.Im not too familar with aikido.However I know of Tai Chi,Ba gua Zhang and Hsing-I as well as other internal arts.I am aware of the mechanisms involved in the movements.I am aware of how they work just fine.I however am bad at explaining things.

"Full body power requires relaxation, relaxation means the qi does not stagnate, that the qi moves. This is where qi gong comes into the training. Meditation quiets the mind so that higher levels of concentration can be achieved which can then be applied to opening and relaxing the joints with the goal of unifying, or harmonizing them, in movement. Through this full-body, or internal, power can be realized. This is internal power, not shooting laser beams of qi.
:

I am not talking about shooting laser beams of chi.I was referring to leading chi to the extremities.Chi is responible for the power manifested.This is why Qigong AKA energy work is incorporated into internal styles.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2724670 - 05/24/04 08:25 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Positronius: What is "internal development?"

Truekimbo said: "there are alot more internal styles than just the chinese ones."

Internal martial arts is a term to describe a select few systems of chinese martial arts characterized by fighting movements using full body power through achievement of the six harmonies combined with chinese medical knowledge and daoist (taoist) meditation methods.

A martial art using soft yielding techniques and relaxation to bring with qi to the extremeties of the body is not necessarily an internal martial art.

A martial art system focusing on energy work is not necessarily an internal martial art.

A martial art system using psychic cosmic energy directed in a focused beam at the opponent's mind is not necessarily an internal martial art.

They ARE referred to as soft and hard techniques and jins in many books,videos and by many teachers.
I'm fully aware of this and the inherent sillyness these categories promote. My question for you is: Is taijiquan a soft or a hard martial art according to this system of classification?

I am familar with some internal arts but not in alot of depth because I am not studying them currently
Well then why not take the chance to learn some internal art theory here instead of making me repeat myself?

I have tai chi books right here on my desk.
You have a taiji book? Wow. I've never read a worthwhile taiji book what's it called?

I'm sorry mixo but I must say you are wrong saying it doesnt take longer.Either that or you have yet to witness someone demonstarte true internal power.
No, not all internal martial arts take a longer time to learn than externals, especially not if trained traditionally. Remember that these peasants had to defend themselves RIGHT THE FUCK NOW taking years to develop skills is a stupid fucking idea, as bandits don't wait till you're good to rape your woman and steal your monkey. This is all the circumstantial evidence needed to shut your argument down. It's the level of the teachers that is slowing down learning and people's unwillingness to fukin' give 'er!

As for my not having witnessed true internal power, why the fuck you think I'm trashing externals so much? You think cause I have a taiji book on my desk? NO! It's cause I HAVE seen true internal power, and like so many nut-hungry squirells.. I... WANT... IT!!

I know all about tai chi,taiji
You hilarious joker! This goes directly against your other statement: "I am familar with some internal arts but not in alot of depth" OWNED!

Let me repeat that for effect:

"I am familar with some internal arts but not in alot of depth"

OK!! DONE! SO... WHY ARE YOU MAKING ME REPEAT MYSELF CONSANTLY??

I am aware of how they work just fine

And yet.. you have never heard of the six harmonies OMG LOL ROFLMAO OMFG HTY NNNBJ WTHAYTA.

Thanks for coming out, Toad, but seriously, my fine feathered friend, you're going to put me into catatonia soon


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2725204 - 05/24/04 10:09 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

jeez mix. you're obviously not progressing very well in your internal work.

most poeple i know including my tai chi teacher (trained by master chan, or is it chen i can't remeber) would define internal martial arts and any arts that use jing and chi developement. so don't take the semantics so seriously.


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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2725212 - 05/24/04 10:10 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Tai chi is one of the few internal arts I am familiar with.I have read many books on the subject as well as watched many videos and I've even practiced it a bit.However I dont find it to be for me at all.I prefer arts like ba gua and white crane since I do not have the chance to learn ba gua and only have the chance to learn white crane I am learning white crane.



The six harmonies weren't mentioned in the tai chi books Ive read.However they also may not be complete as well.Some books do not cover anything but the techniques and others leave out things like
any book can.

"I'm fully aware of this and the inherent sillyness these categories promote. My question for you is: Is taijiquan a soft or a hard martial art according to this system of classification?"

It is hard and soft.However I find it highly pretentious to say many other accomplished martial artists and martial arts masters are wrong even thought they have been practicing before you were even born and have more experience than you.

"You hilarious joker! This goes directly against your other statement: "I am familar with some internal arts but not in alot of depth" OWNED!"

Ok I should rephrase I know alot about tai chi however I didnt say I know everything.I dont know everything about the philosophy or history of tai chi.

"No, not all internal martial arts take a longer time to learn than externals, especially not if trained traditionally. Remember that these peasants had to defend themselves RIGHT THE FUCK NOW taking years to develop skills is a stupid fucking idea, as bandits don't wait till you're good to rape your woman and steal your monkey. This is all the circumstantial evidence needed to shut your argument down. It's the level of the teachers that is slowing down learning and people's unwillingness to fukin' give 'er!

As for my not having witnessed true internal power, why the fuck you think I'm trashing externals so much? You think cause I have a taiji book on my desk? NO! It's cause I HAVE seen true internal power, and like so many nut-hungry squirells.. I... WANT... IT!!"

Does this mean you dont have it?I thought it was easy and just as fast maybe even faster than external arts.On average external arts are grasped extremely well within a year or two for most people however internal arts take longer.Even people who have practiced under world famous martial artist in china state in their books and written literature and articles and etc that it takes much longer to really grasp internal styles.I see this all over many books and articles from prominent martial artists.Even BK who is quite experienced in many arts.It takes years to reach an appreciable level in internal arts.It has ALWAYS been tradition to train external first then internal after in many areas.Some schools in china will not accept students who havent trained and mastered and external style first.


"You have a taiji book? Wow. I've never read a worthwhile taiji book what's it called?"

Worthwhile VS not is an opinion.Not everyone shares your opinion.

"And yet.. you have never heard of the six harmonies OMG LOL ROFLMAO OMFG HTY NNNBJ WTHAYTA."

One doesnt have to know the philosophy behind somethign to understand the mechanisms of how something works.Do you need to know the philosophy of driving a car to drive it?No.

Its amazing how you always seem to skip any valid points in anyone's posts and focus on any what you feel to be invalid points or mistakes.Grow up Mixo.Mature discussion doesnt attack of make fun of people.


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"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2726841 - 05/25/04 08:23 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

would define internal martial arts and any arts that use jing and chi developement.
That would include.. all martial arts so..

Mature discussion doesnt attack of make fun of people.
Sorry.. bored discussion on the other hand..

It is hard and soft.
Ok.. so you can see how martial arts don't fall easily into these categories, correct? They are useless categories, you've just proved that so..

I thought it was easy and just as fast maybe even faster than external arts.
There are infinite levels, it's not like one day you have "internal power" and then boom you plateau and never go anywhere. I was saying that martial arts skill can be gained in a short amount of time with internal arts training, not full internal power.. reading comprehension please..

I find it highly pretentious
I prefer the term "arrogant."

Do you need to know the philosophy of driving a car to drive it?No.
True, but martial arts isn't just getting into a body and walking down a street. Martial arts is cleaning, repairing, and improving the vehicle's performance beyond the norm. To replace an engine you need to know the ins and outs of the cars. You get -3 for bringing up a metaphor that turns around and bites you in the ass.

It has ALWAYS been tradition to train external first then internal after in many areas.Some schools in china will not accept students who havent trained and mastered and external style first.
False. Don't use absolutes like "always" because you know you can't be totally correct. When Donghaichuan started teaching bagua all his students were already high level martial artists but that's because bagua is a principle-based add-on skill.

This does not apply to hsing-yi, xingyi, or taiji schools. Unless of course the master doesn't want to give away his secrets. This is very common.. a teacher will make up some story like "oh no, you have to train this shit training before I teach you anything."

I have read many books on the subject as well as watched many videos and I've even practiced it a bit.
Therefore you have excellent perspective and SHOULD continue this argument.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2727237 - 05/25/04 10:35 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Hey Mixamatosis, are you going to answer my questions? Check page 1 of this post. If you dont want to answer, thats ok too :smile:


--------------------
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my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2727384 - 05/25/04 11:19 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"That would include.. all martial arts so.."

External arts dont tend to develop or use jing or chi development.

"Sorry.. bored discussion on the other hand.."

There is just too much negativity in the world as it is, especially at the shroomery sometimes.I hate to see people add more negativity.

"Ok.. so you can see how martial arts don't fall easily into these categories, correct? They are useless categories, you've just proved that so.."

I look at the styles as either hard,soft or hard and soft meaning a mixture of both.It's easier for me to use these terms when thinking or talking about martial arts and its sometimes easier for others to think in these terms as well,but yes I agree that they can be quite inaccurate.

"True, but martial arts isn't just getting into a body and walking down a street. Martial arts is cleaning, repairing, and improving the vehicle's performance beyond the norm. To replace an engine you need to know the ins and outs of the cars. You get -3 for bringing up a metaphor that turns around and bites you in the ass."

True it is cleaning,reapiring and improving performance beyond the norm.However one only needs to know how to do it not the theories or philosophies behind it.You can fix an engine just knowing how to take it apart and knowing how the engine works but you don't need to know the philosophy or theories behind an engine to fix it.

"I prefer the term "arrogant.""

lol Ok I dub thee Mr. Arrogance.However arrogance is not neccessarily a bad thing.


When I said it had always been tradition I should've clarified what I meant.I was referring to warring periods.It was tradition for them to train external first because they needed to get them onto the battle field as soon as possible.

Yes some skill can be obtained in a relatively short amount of time practicing internal arts although I personally feel it is much harder to learn than external arts simply because there is so much more to learn like timing,chi development and leading chi,and so on besides the movement rather than just the movement as in external arts.I also feel progress in internal arts is more gradual than external arts.However I do agree it depends on the individual and how hard and often they train among other things.

"This does not apply to hsing-yi, xingyi, or taiji schools. Unless of course the master doesn't want to give away his secrets. This is very common.. a teacher will make up some story like "oh no, you have to train this shit training before I teach you anything.""

I feel sometimes it is done to test the virtue and dedication f the student.What teacher wants to waste time with a student who isnt willing to work hard and learn and doesnt take it seriously.Sometimes however I feel with some styles benefit is obtained from learning external styles first.I wont disagree however that internal arts reach MUCH higher levels than external arts.Internal arts development never really ends.However external training tends to reach a plateau or wall at a certain point.The only way to go further is to incorporate qigong or other internal aspects or to train internally.But then you are no longer training externally so you are not furthering external skills you are simply taking a new path and learning new skills.

It is often quite hard for beginners to grasp some movements or even alot of the movements and mechanisms.But with practice and constant hard work it will come.The harder one works and the more one practices the faster the results obviously.

Some prominent martial artists recommend both internal and external training.It seems to be mostly preference in alot of cases.I however share their opinion for some reasons.


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2728260 - 05/25/04 03:09 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Well, aside from the mild arguments, this is a great post and I've learned a ton.

As for the original question, I think you've gotten a pile of great adivice here. I've trained in Kempo, Jeet Kun Do, Muai Thai, Kali, American Karate (Tae Kwan Do, essentially), and a small amount of Akido and Tai Chi. I've found each of them fun and useful in very different ways. After studying on and off for most of my adult life, I think that if I had my druthers, I'd study both Tai Chi (with someone who uses Chi Gung as part of the training) and Akido full time. The combination - for me - would seem to work the physical, the mind-body connection, and the focus, all of which are what I'm looking for, in the most balanced fashion.

Don't think you have to decide on one art and stick with it forever. Find a studio/dojo with people you like and trust, study for a while, and don't be afraid to move on and try something else. It's likely that few, if any of us, are going to become masters - so remember... it's a process that will last for the rest of your life. There's no hurry.

Namaste.


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: martial arts [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2729689 - 05/25/04 08:26 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Genocide?! Explain.

This was a general reference to the atrocities commited by the japanese during their empire-building rampage throughout mainland Asia in an attempt by me to associate Mr. Peace himself with his role in a very questionable military campaign. Though it could be said my comments are propaganda, they don't reflect my opinion of the martial merits of aikido rather they point towards the inherent hypocracy of the human race and people's blindfolded rush forward to worship idealized humans at the altars of sycophany.

BTW, weird religion concepts in aikido? I trained in the art for several years. Its a very circular and dynamic art that teaches you a lot of how the body works. Not to mention its fun and extremely peaceful.
This comes from my very limited experience conversing with aikido guys, one in particular gave me this opinion as his dogmatic assertions on the universe and the nature of peace were heavily entwined with his martial arts which gave him a limited modus operandi in his life and martial arts. My only beef with aikido is they seem to work with the assumption that the attacker will launch forward with lots of momentum and obvious energy, and I question the focus on receptivity. Sometimes the most peaceful thing you can do is rush forward and schmuck someone in the face with a tire iron, and aikido doesn't seem to include this.

Of course, what do I know? I feel that peacefullness is not inherent in any martial art but involves the artist's conduct outside his training, the same way a knife isn't inherently agressive. The concept of "peaceful" or "defensive" martial arts is used to market aikido but I feel this is misleading and likely the art's wisdom has been dilluded (as they all have been). And I don't have anything against japanese at all.. I just feel that the Chinese took martial arts to a higher level.

hypnotoad: I think we're experiencing some misunderstanding stemming from my insistence to use internal/external and you using hard/soft. These are different ways to classify arts and are not interchangeable.

I do agree it depends on the individual and how hard and often they train among other things.
I agree. When Chen fa ke was 14 he was weak, unhealthy and hardly able to practice. When he overheard his uncles discussing how sad it was he was unable to continue his lineage (his father, grandfather, great grandfather and so were the highest level taiji masters of all time) he decided he was going to bust his ass training and within 3 years and very little instruction (his father was away) he managed to surpass all the other youth of his generation.

Most people nowadays practice internal arts as floaty energy stuff. What they miss is that the movements themselves done at low level ARE external martial arts moves, and if they trained physically and built strength and speed with their taiji forms, they would gain martial skill quickly, at least as fast as external martial artists.

Xingyi is such that from the very beginniing the applications of the movements are strong and obvious so within a short amount of time the xingyi practicioner can gain martial skill. Taiji not as much, but there is a lot of training people neglect. To prove this all you have to do is go around to some taiji clubs, watch them move and push hands and see what percentage out there actually have fighting ability. You'll find the percentage is very small, as there aren't a lot of people training like they used to when they had the threat of bandits to motivate them.

Some prominent martial artists recommend both internal and external training.

I believe this is so because internal arts haven't been transmitted as faithfully as externals, so in most people's practice they need to supplement their floaty taiji and such with whatever.



Really I have no problem with people training whatever. It's all martial arts, and if you're training then I commend you whatever my narrow-minded opinions on these arts may be.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: martial arts [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2729934 - 05/25/04 09:23 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

You stick to your opinions like glue. Perhaps, you should do some research on aikido...pretty good stuff.

I've never seen anyone who has mastered true internal power, and I'm sortof curious as to what you've seen :smile:. I also dont believe two true martial artists would fight each other in this century. Martial artists are generally very peaceful people (with the exception of competition or battle).

Morihei Ueshiba used the Shinto religion as his stepping stone towards enlightenment and preached it to his personal students. That is why there are some references to that religion in the, perhaps, most traditional schools. But, most of aikido works very dynamically in any situation. It is basically learning to use your opponents body as a simple machine (lever, pulley, etc...). When mastered, you will use the least amount of effort to achieve the maximum amount of effect. Some teachers use light/ki visualization techniques to develop this concept in their pupils mind, so for some it is considered an internal art.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: martial arts [Re: psyka]
    #2730068 - 05/25/04 09:46 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

hehehehehe, mix you made me remeber stories i've heard of my friend's teacher's teacher's teaching bad students fucked up techniques and making them master them over the course of months just to teach them lessons.


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OfflineCather
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Re: martial arts [Re: CleverName]
    #2730921 - 05/26/04 01:54 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

When i was travelling i saw an orange robed (buddhist?) monk throw a needle ( an ordinary sowing needle) through a thick pane of glass and leave a hole . Then i beat his ass :wink:

ps . all the above is true except the last bit :smile:


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: martial arts [Re: Cather]
    #2731706 - 05/26/04 10:17 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

wow, thats amazing. how far away from the glass was he?


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: martial arts [Re: Cather]
    #2732190 - 05/26/04 12:46 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Hell, anybody could do that while wearing an orange robe.

Hey y'all; check out my new Martial Arts additions to my book sale. These are recent, comprehensive tomes on Shaolin Kung Fu and Ba Gua.

Book sale here

Note: will return to S&P shortly. Very busy right now.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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