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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26848247 -

So then why are you here talking about it again?


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #26848250 -

Please support your claim that I deny racism has any meaning - I asked you first

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26848263 -

Before I can do that, maybe you can show where I claimed that you deny racism has any meaning.  The closest I can find to that is where I said you appear to have dug into a position where you choose to deny the term has any meaning so as to avoid any real discussion thereof


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #26848270 -

Yes, this is the correct quote.
So, just to clarify - you do not claim that I deny racism has any meaning?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26848276 -

Not specifically.  Specifically, I claim that you feign ignorance about the definition in an attempt to divert the discussion away from one about racism.  In support of this claim, I present:

Metoo said:
This discussion is pointless unless we agree what we mean by racism.


Metoo said:
My main motivation here is to work out what we mean by racism to avoid nonsensical discussions doomed from the start by lack of agreement on the common termnology


Further, I believe that everyone in this forum, yourself included, has enough of a working understanding of the term to have a valuable discussion about it. 


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #26848289 -

Enlil said:
So then why are you here talking about it again?



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #26848293 -

I stand by both quoted statements - which part in particular do you disagree with?

The last few pages were filled with a discussion of racism which referenced statistics for crime, scholarships, composition of the boardrooms etc. In the dictionary definition of racism the outcome statistics do not prove racism - for that one has to substantiate that "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race" is included in the workings of the system. This is what I have been trying to convey - whether or not something qualifies as racism depends on what we take the term to mean and it is wise to agree on the terminology beforehand

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26848294 -

A dead body isn't murder, but it's evidence that murder took place.  Inequity of outcomes isn't racism, but it's evidence that racism is at play.  Yes, there can be inequitable outcomes without racism just as there can be dead bodies without murder.  That doesn't mean it isn't evidence of racism.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #26848295 -

Enlil said:
Further, I believe that everyone in this forum, yourself included, has enough of a working understanding of the term to have a valuable discussion about it. 


Yes, it is certainly a good starting point and I am doing my bit to advance this discussion in the direction of convergence, not confusion.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #26848297 -

Enlil said:
A dead body isn't murder, but it's evidence that murder took place.


No is't not - they could have slipped and fallen down the cliff. If you think about it this is the crux of the debate

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26848300 -

You're simply wrong.  One of the elements of murder is that someone died.  A dead body is conclusive evidence to prove this element of murder.  Is more evidence needed?  Sure.  That doesn't mean that a dead body isn't evidence of murder, though.

And yes, I know it's the crux of the discussion...that's why I said it.  Unequal outcomes drawn along racial lines is evidence of racism at play.  Are there other possible explanations for that evidence?  Maybe...That's why I've been asking for other explanations from people all day.  I can't seem to come up with any, though.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #26848308 -

Does the existence of dead body mean that a murder has taken place?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26848313 -

Not necessarily, no.  The absence of one, however, makes it very hard to prove that a murder has taken place.  Of course, a body alone can have many alternative explanations.  Can you offer an alternative explanation for racial disparity in outcomes?


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #26848322 -

Sorry, a meeting - TBC

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26848371 -

Why don’t his supporters see him for the whiny little bitch he is? He thinks trending hashtags about him on twitter are illegal.



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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: koods]
    #26848386 -

IT'S NOT FAIR!


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #26848394 -

He needs to send federal troops to twitter headquarters and arrest the algorithms responsible for the illegal hashtagging


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: koods]
    #26848403 -

Saying bad things about the President is treason.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #26848407 -

When prompted, you came up with some good reasons why Black ballers tend to filter to the top of NBA, without racist drafting procedures helping them. Would it be fair to say that, in your opinion, they happen to be both keen and good at it? There are parallels in other ethnic communities. Where I currently live many of my compatriots lay ceramic tiles. This is not because they are denied other positions but simply someone started it long time ago and others followed, learning the trade from people speaking the same language and using their business connections. In short – they lay tiles because this is what they chose to do for living. The ethnic diversity stats for tilers must look horrible but as an insider I cannot see any foul play so it is one of the dead body without murder situations. The beauty parlours here are run almost exclusively by South-East Asians. Filing fingernails is not very glamorous but I have not heard any complaints from those involved (I have extensive contacts in the Chinese community) – seems to be something that they start in through community connections and are happy to do henceforth. My partner is Indian and their families are crazy about making their children into doctors, lawyers or engineers. Not ceramic tilers or beauticians.  I do not have all the answers but there appears to be nothing dodgy in these few cases I have a good visibility into.

The way I see it unequal outcomes drawn along racial lines do not mean racism was at play - to prove that one would need to evidentially show that "belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race" was part of the process creating the situation. And, more importantly, the onus in these debates is on those making the claim - I am sure there is a similar principle in the legal process? You are saying that no alternative explanations have been offered but where is the evidential proof that there are deliberate policies in operation targeting PoC based on the above reasoning? If it exists and can be verified I will joint you on the barricades.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo] * 2
    #26848440 -

Joint me?

Well, the examples you gave are social/cultural, and they are the product of systemic racism as well.  Cultures aren't created in a vacuum, after all.  In the case of the fingernail parlors, much of that is the direct product of human trafficking.  Do you think Indians encourage their kids to be doctors because they are genetically predisposed to that?  Or do you think that is a cultural response to social factors?

At the root, the fact that there are different cultural pressures among the races must be the product of something.  It's not genetic.  What is it?  I have thought very long and hard on this and have not come up with anything other than disparity in how races are treated.

As to your comparison to a legal process...let's go back to the body.  We now have more than a dead body.  We have a dead body with a bullet in its skull and an entrance wound.  There's no gun anywhere near.  Is that enough to prove murder?  Yeah, unless another explanation is presented.  That's where we are in this discussion.  We have clear disparities (a body) drawn along racial lines (the bullet in the head).  What are the alternative explanations?

As to evidence of racist conduct, how much do you need?  Do you not see evidence of racism every day?  I do.  White privilege shows itself in a million different ways all the time.  Sure, people don't run around lynching black folk like they used to, but all of these tiny examples of white privilege have a cumulative effect of keeping people of color at a disadvantage.  A black sounding name gets a resume thrown away.  Black skin makes a man a bit more threatening looking.  There are countless ways that subtle racism turns into a big problem.  That's the systemic racism I speak of.


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