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Re: Trump calls CNN fake news [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24017291 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Again, I disagree.  Without the underlying companies making money, the trading you are referring to becomes worthless.


Do you have any idea how many millionaires and billionaires have been created from companies that never made a profit?  How about from ultra leveraged (200:1) currency and commodities futures trading?

Derivatives of all types?

Right now the global derivatives market value is over 900 TRILLION dollars.  That's where the big money is being made and lost on a daily basis.


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


Edited by KauaiOrca (01/17/17 12:43 PM)

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Re: Trump calls CNN fake news [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24017305 -

KauaiOrca said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I disagree.  Without the underlying companies making money, the trading you are referring to becomes worthless.


Do you have any idea how many millionaires and billionaires have been created from companies that never made a profit?  How about from ultra leveraged (200:1) currency and commodities futures trading?

Derivatives of all types?

Right now the global derivatives market value is over 900 TRILLION dollars.  That's where the big money is being made and lost on a daily basis.


Yes, I get the derivatives market as well.  Though it is massive, for every dollar someone makes on derivatives, another dollar is lost as well.  Derivatives are a zero sum game.  It's the market value of the underlying assets where real wealth is created.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Trump calls CNN fake news [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24017319 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
KauaiOrca said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I disagree.  Without the underlying companies making money, the trading you are referring to becomes worthless.


Do you have any idea how many millionaires and billionaires have been created from companies that never made a profit?  How about from ultra leveraged (200:1) currency and commodities futures trading?

Derivatives of all types?

Right now the global derivatives market value is over 900 TRILLION dollars.  That's where the big money is being made and lost on a daily basis.


Yes, I get the derivatives market as well.  Though it is massive, for every dollar someone makes on derivatives, another dollar is lost as well.  Derivatives are a zero sum game.  It's the market value of the underlying assets where real wealth is created.


I don't think you understand how leveraged trading works ... not being a dick here, just being honest.  The whole system is designed to turn debt into assets.  Whether it's our fractional reserve lending system, the way massive derivatives leverage is created or the way IPO's are funded ... the way margin trading is done ... It's all about leverage. 

The underlying assets are MANIPULATED by the way derivatives are used to create price movements. 

Banks are not, for the most part, lending money coming from depositers for all of this stuff ... It's much more complicated than that.


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: Trump calls CNN fake news [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24017382 -

KauaiOrca said:
I don't think you understand how leveraged trading works ... not being a dick here, just being honest.


I get finance and leveraging extremely well, and based on the current discussion I'm pretty sure I get it better than you.  I have an MBA from a reputable college with an emphasis in finance.  But that's irrelevant if I can't explain it:

KauaiOrca said:
The whole system is designed to turn debt into assets.


I get leverage.  It allows you to borrow lots of money that you can use to invest.  If your leveraged investment is profitable, you will make a lot; if not you will lose a lot.  Either way, you have to pay back the borrowed money.

KauaiOrca said:
Whether it's our fractional reserve lending system...


I've had many lengthy discussions on fractional reserve banking showing how little people know about it.  Did you know that every dollar loaned into existence under fractional reserve banking is taken back out of existence when the loan is paid back?

Why Money Disappears When Loans Are Repaid

KauaiOrca said:
the way massive derivatives leverage is created or the way IPO's are funded ... the way margin trading is done ... It's all about leverage.


Once again, I get leverage.  It allows people invest more than they have.  Leveraged money is not free money; it's borrowed money, which has to be paid back.

KauaiOrca said:
The underlying assets are MANIPULATED by the way derivatives are used to create price movements.


Investors tend to look at derivatives to help them guess what the underlying asset will do in the future, and that might effect trading prices for the underlying asset.  But keep in mind that for every derivative purchased, someone else sold that derivative, and only one of those two will make money - the other will lose the corresponding amount.  A zero sum game.

KauaiOrca said:
Banks are not, for the most part, lending money coming from depositers for all of this stuff ... It's much more complicated than that.


Again, I am intimately familiar with fractional reserve banking.  Let me know if you have any questions about it.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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