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hunter-gatherers and women's lib * 1
    #26153827 -

In hunter-gatherer societies, and in hominin societies for millions of years, the women would remain close to home and hearth, gathering nuts, berries, tubers – what have you – and generally running the camp and staying out of harm’s way. Presumably fires would be burning. The men, on the other hand, would venture out great distances, executing very difficult strategies, solving problems and sometimes putting themselves in terrible danger in order to acquire meat.

I’m sure the feminists find it difficult explaining all this away.

If you were a feminist, or an activist, or a proponent of women's liberation and total equality, how would you interpret these facts? It seems the entire image that women's rights leaders have tried to erase is inextricably tied up, in a difficult to dismiss way, in the biological realities and imperatives of being a human primate that have been discovered by anthropologists.

Whether you're a man or a woman, how do such facts strike you? How do they make you feel?


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26153852 -

the narrative that men and women are just interchangeable carbon bits is peak honk

I believe that men and women are equal just not identical... the career woman thing is kind of new... you have women refusing to consider any romantic prospects that don't have the same tier of academic or financial achievement as them (unless the guy is hot)


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Edited by yeah (08/26/19 03:10 PM)

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: DividedQuantum] * 3
    #26153878 -

Depends how you look at it.

While men in this light seem to put off the very definition of domination, perhaps from an alien outsider point of view, comparing us to social insects, the men could be seen as worker bees. Doing dangerous things, exploring, working hard, going out getting food..these are all qualities of worker bees in a hive, they protect the queen and their home with ferocity
The women in this context, behave much more like a queen bee would. They stay home, tend to the nest, birth and care for the young.

The whole feminist view is flawed because they try to see equality as being able to do everything a man can and do it better, never realizing the equality is really in the balance found between the dynamic that exists, the balance of worker bee and queen bee to make the whole thing work efficiently. In this view, everyone is equal in that both sides balance out.


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: DividedQuantum] * 4
    #26153945 -

I agree with what yeah said, that equality does not mean that men and women have to be same, or have to take on the same roles or whatever, although they should have the freedom to do that if they want. The feminine and the masculine have different qualities, and there is no getting away from that, but if a woman wants to be UFC fighter and a man wants to be a nurse, there should be no barriers to them being able to do that.

I think perhaps the reason feminism has become so extreme (in some cases) is because historically, women have been seen as being inferior to men (instead of just as having different qualities) and as a result they have been prevented from leading the lives they might otherwise have had the opportunity to live. Everything has to be kept in balance, and when there has been some much oppression in the past, at some point, there is going to be an equal and opposite reaction.


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Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.
~ Rumi


The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: PocketLady] * 2
    #26154114 -

All good points so far. PocketLady's response is, I think, particularly on point, and it's nice that she is a she. I especially like your final note about "an equal and opposite reaction." I don't think anyone could have put it better. :smile:

Balance is an ideal everywhere in Nature.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26154139 -

I think because we have evolved past such simple roles, it's hard to say how to incorporate those roles into our interpretation of "equality." For instance, men are seen as the "breadwinners", but according to some archeological studies I've read, women actually gathered more net calories than men. The roles men filled literally couldn't be filled by women. They werent strong enough to bring kills back, or reliably throw a spear hard enough to pierce the heart of a deer. It was a matter of practicality, you bring the strong people on the hunt, the strong people are just nearly always men.

But now none of that matters. There are so few jobs that one gender can't do. Maybe like roughneck on an oil rig or a lumberjack, but 95% of jobs don't need speed or strength. Less and less every day as automation does more and more of the heavy lifting.

I would say that feminists would just argue there's no reason to hold onto those ideas anymore, just like we don't let "God" dictate our laws and we don't own slaves, completely ubiquitous ideas in most societies at one time.

I'm playing devils advocate here. I agree that men and women will never fill the exact same roles, but it's hard to say with confidence when we are as equal as we can get


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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: bloodsheen]
    #26154384 -

DividedQuantum said:
In hunter-gatherer societies, and in hominin societies for millions of years, the women would remain close to home and hearth, gathering nuts, berries, tubers – what have you – and generally running the camp and staying out of harm’s way. Presumably fires would be burning. The men, on the other hand, would venture out great distances, executing very difficult strategies, solving problems and sometimes putting themselves in terrible danger in order to acquire meat.

I’m sure the feminists find it difficult explaining all this away.

If you were a feminist, or an activist, or a proponent of women's liberation and total equality, how would you interpret these facts? It seems the entire image that women's rights leaders have tried to erase is inextricably tied up, in a difficult to dismiss way, in the biological realities and imperatives of being a human primate that have been discovered by anthropologists.

Whether you're a man or a woman, how do such facts strike you? How do they make you feel?


Is it true that the division of labor was based on gender?

It would make more sense for people to do what they're good at back then when the main focus was survival. What if a woman was an excellent archer? Wouldn't it make more sense for her to hunt, especially if she is far better than some of the men?


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"it's all a joke between mom contractions and coffin fittings"


The most useful tool for noobs

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: Tight Lunchbox]
    #26154396 -

It is my understanding after years of study that there was a sharp and strict division of labor between the sexes, and if it were ever violated, I have never read about any cases of it. I think it was one of those things that just wasn't done. But it worked well for eons.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26154413 -

Becoming an archer takes practice. I'm sure in all of human history a father or two allowed their daughter to mess around with a bow or even become a hunter. But imagine every time you miss and an arrow ends up way the fuck out in the woods, never to be found. Each arrow was an intense task to make. First a straight enough branch, then the fletching needs attached, then the arrowhead has to be napped. All three can be damaged in some way with every shot

Point being, switching roles would have been exceptionally impractical. You couldn't just kinda sorta know a task, you had to be a super expert or your tribe might die.


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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: bloodsheen] * 1
    #26154424 -

I guess my question to OP is, what links are you making between the tasks of ancient people and tasks of today? What exactly is a hunter's role today? What is a gatherer's role? Feminists wouldn't dispute history, they would ask why that status quo matters at all now?


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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26154426 -

Perhaps our understanding of gender roles in hunter gatherer society has been influenced by the way society has operated in the more recent past?

To me it just doesnt make sense to have a strict division of labor based on sex when your only purpose is to survive and reproduce.


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"it's all a joke between mom contractions and coffin fittings"


The most useful tool for noobs

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: yeah]
    #26154651 -

yeah said:
the narrative that men and women are just interchangeable carbon bits is peak honk

I believe that men and women are equal just not identical... the career woman thing is kind of new... you have women refusing to consider any romantic prospects that don't have the same tier of academic or financial achievement as them (unless the guy is hot)


:justastonishing:


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26154674 -

DividedQuantum said:
If you were a feminist, or an activist, or a proponent of women's liberation and total equality, how would you interpret these facts? It seems the entire image that women's rights leaders have tried to erase is inextricably tied up, in a difficult to dismiss way, in the biological realities and imperatives of being a human primate that have been discovered by anthropologists.

Whether you're a man or a woman, how do such facts strike you? How do they make you feel?


Of course there is a biological reality, but just as humans are different from all other animals in some very important ways, just so women are different from the biological restrictions that other female animals are subject to.
There is absolutely no excuse for different pay for the same job.
By & large this country has no democratic feeling, or sense what so ever.
There have been and are many great women scientists and mathematicians.
The effects of being treated as a second class person, are devastating and abusive.

....Ask anyone with a daughter, that is a loving person, about this, and if one hasn't understood the reality yet, be prepared to learn something new.

.....Total equality, is of course a joke or straw 'man'. Pretty much every minority has been and is discriminated against, in the USA, when ever possible, by those in power. As are poor people. The country was founded by well to do, white male slave holders, who also fucked their slaves. The men of this country also wiped out the buffalo, and put the natives on "reservations". To think that because, we grew up with myths telling us our country is the greatest, that it really is so, is to be very naive. The book: "The Ugly American" was written long ago with good reason. World wide, the US and its people are, to a great extent disliked.
.....Additionally the USA has been an imperial power since WWll & supported numerous dictatorships, and thru covert operations overthrown many democratic movements and installed puppet governments, world wide.
...."Total equality", in the USA--what could that possibly mean???? It would seem, anyone who is healthy and young and understands the reality of what nicer societies are like, and isn't tied down, might do well to become an expat.
....But given the world situation, it may make little difference at this point. It seems at times no longer easy to tell what is depression and what is simply a willingness to face facts, whether they are pleasant or not, when it comes to understanding the current world situation, in a general and balanced way in so far as possible...
....Regardless of all the good work accomplished by Ruth Bader Ginsburg, this country will continue to drag its feet, as it always has, in all matters regarding simple human decency.
....I recommend the movie:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4669788/
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0046029/

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26156054 -

The home and the hearth has expanded, have to figure that into the mix.

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: PocketLady] * 3
    #26156129 -

In the workplace, I observe many women getting a free pass while the men do the difficult work. The men are terrified to ask management why they always have to do the dirty work while the women get the easier tasks.

PocketLady said:
I think perhaps the reason feminism has become so extreme (in some cases) is because historically, women have been seen as being inferior to men ...


Like how the anger about slavery fuels and maintains rage, I think past suffering persists thru teaching. And we shall continue to suffer for the past as long as people passionately fight to "never forget" what has happened. Suffering is the hardest drug to quit. Once we embrace the label of victim, (even when we aren't one) it's a strong commitment.

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26156207 -

DividedQuantum said:
In hunter-gatherer societies, and in hominin societies for millions of years, the women would remain close to home and hearth, gathering nuts, berries, tubers – what have you – and generally running the camp and staying out of harm’s way. Presumably fires would be burning. The men, on the other hand, would venture out great distances, executing very difficult strategies, solving problems and sometimes putting themselves in terrible danger in order to acquire meat.


you somehow have come to the conclusion that being stationary at the camp is somehow safer than wandering around the countryside, in reality there is smilar odds of danger in each case and in some ways staying in one place makes you a better target for various attacks

you also imply that wandering around looking for meat somehow involves more problem solving than taking care of the camp, foraging for foods, tending to fires and presumably taking care of infants

i think you are way out on a limb here and sound like a male supremacist


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evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil

freedom is the ability to take wrong action, right actions are constrained by nature

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: killingravensun]
    #26156211 -

Yeah I agree. Without meat the tribe may die, but without woven cloth, and pots, and babies (which incidentally are an automatic burden) the tribe will also die.


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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: killingravensun]
    #26156226 -

killingravensun said:
you also imply that wandering around looking for meat somehow involves more problem solving than taking care of the camp, foraging for foods, tending to fires and presumably taking care of infantst


Personally I think that's an absolute given. There's no doubt in my mind that stalking and hunting an animal requires more of an analytical, problem-solving based approach, as compared to the activities you mention. Hence, over all this time, men have become predisposed to become problem solvers, both in their professional and personal lives (which, incidentally, is generally women's main gripe about how men act in relationships; trying to solve problems rather than listen to them).


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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #26156254 -

killing an animal is easy business, it takes little to no problem solving ability, just the skill needed to do the deed, same as foraging, but fire science does take problem solving, finding the right amount of the right material to burn and then burning the right amount to get the job done without running out or burning down the camp, plus doing it with young children around adds another layer of difficulty, then the food preparation on top of that, making sure there is enough for everyone and getting it done before the village starves

at best the tasks of each sex are on par, with the women doing more diverse work than the men


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evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil

freedom is the ability to take wrong action, right actions are constrained by nature

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Re: hunter-gatherers and women's lib [Re: killingravensun]
    #26156282 -

That's a stretch. Fire is not that hard. Straight stick, some fluffy dry tinder, spin on dry stick until smoking. Don't let the flames die or get huge. A child could do it with some practice and patience. Hunting isn't about killing your prey, it's about finding it. You could be taught in an afternoon how to use a fire stick, and become a pro in a week. It takes many years to learn tracking skills.


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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog

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