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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25688093 -

Joking aside, this quote successfully captures my opinion:

Quote:
I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe — "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.

- Thoreau, Civil Disobedience



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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25688369 -

The one with the least federal overreach in overruling states rights. Most people's ares are like their own country. California is the polar opposite of Alabama and we have to recognize that.


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Modest Mouse
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Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many :heart:

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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #25688383 -

So you want the Union abolished. That still leaves the question of how you would choose to govern the state.

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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #25688398 -

No I want the citizens votes for their states to be held up as our constitution guarentees. I don't want the federal government to be able to do a raid on a pot farm because they arbitrarily want or don't want to enforce it.

"The Tenth Amendment’s simple language—“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people”—emphasizes that the inclusion of a bill of rights does not change the fundamental character of the national government. It remains a government of limited and enumerated powers, so that the first question involving an exercise of federal power is not whether it violates someone’s rights, but whether it exceeds the national government’s enumerated powers. "


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R.I.P
Zombi3, Blue Helix
Modest Mouse
Zappa, Jellyfish
Slothie
That Kid With The face
ShLong
Le Canard
split_by_nine
& Big Worm Forever
Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many :heart:

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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #25688404 -

I don’t get this obsession with state governments.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: koods] * 1
    #25688414 -

That's where all the action is.  The federal government doesn't have the power to do nearly as much.


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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: koods]
    #25688560 -

koods said:
I don’t get this obsession with state governments.


As the country becomes more polarized, people have a growing desire to place more power in the hands of the local officials, chosen by them. It's not really that difficult to understand. The Federal government is not terribly responsive the the will of the people, by it's design. Washington is also evermore divided on a whole host of issues. The marijuana situation has really encouraged people to pursue states rights. Abortion is another big issue that many people wish to regulate at the state level.


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"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25688752 -

Why stop at the state level, instead of pushing for autonomy at the municipal level?

Many states are essentially the size of countries; even if the problem may be less than what exists at the federal level, shouldn't we expect a similar lack of representation from central state governments as we currently experience from the central federal government?


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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: koods] * 1
    #25688770 -

koods said:
I don’t get this obsession with state governments.


America's fuckin big. I don't want some shmuck in New Hampshire deciding what's best for me in California.


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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: Near Dylan]
    #25688793 -

California's fuckin big too. Is some schlep in Sacramento deciding what's best for someone in Eureka an ideal alternative?


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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25688814 -

Ideal? Is anything ever ideal?


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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25688821 -

As Enlil said. "Ideal"? As in perfect? Of course not. But what do you want to do, have state governments be replaced with county governments? County with city? City with neighborhood? There has to be some cut-off. States is a fair one.


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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: Near Dylan] * 1
    #25688830 -

We don't even need a cut off. That's the beauty of our system. State law applies where it works, then local laws apply to things that are necessarily local. My state determined what a stop sign means and looks like. My city determined that one belongs down the block.

Not ideal, but pretty fucking close.


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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25688880 -

'Preferable' may have been a better choice of word.

I think that if we acknowledge that centralized representation is insufficient, we should take steps to properly address this issue.

Many states are still comparable to countries, both in terms of population and area. We see this same issue of lack of representation take form in pretty much every modern country, with perhaps a few exceptions (Greenland and Bhutan come to mind as possible examples of representative centralized governments).

With this in mind, should we expect a focus on state rights to sufficiently address the problems of centralized government found at the federal level?

I'm going to requote my earlier post because it is supremely fitting:
Quote:
I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe — "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.

- Thoreau, Civil Disobedience


It appears to me that the 'state rights' position makes a similar claim, that local government is better, but doesn't take this to its natural conclusion. Why do you think that the state is an appropriate cut-off point?

Personally, I envision federations of autonomous communities. "Community" intentionally being left a nebulous term, because I think that communities vary widely and attempting to fit them all into one box would be detrimental, but at its most basic they can be described as "a group of individuals with similar interests/concerns cooperating together". I've never had a problem identifying the communities I've been a part of.

I envision overlap between communities, and also overlap between federations. There will not be any strict or static borders. Personal autonomy, cooperation, and compassion would be the values necessary to drive such a society forward. It may not be the most efficient system, but I don't think efficiency should be our number one metric. Dictatorships and ant colonies are efficient. Autonomy > efficiency.

That being said, I don't forget this part:
Quote:
"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.


Most people, for probably a variety of reasons, are not prepared for this type of government. But the beauty part of individual autonomy and autonomous communities, is that I don't have to wait for the rest of the world to start.


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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 2
    #25688892 -

shivas.wisdom said:
I think that if we acknowledge that centralized representation is insufficient, we should take steps to properly address this issue.



We have.  There are several levels of government more localized than state government.  It seems to work pretty well.


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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: Enlil]
    #25688893 -

Enlil said:
We don't even need a cut off. That's the beauty of our system. State law applies where it works, then local laws apply to things that are necessarily local. My state determined what a stop sign means and looks like. My city determined that one belongs down the block.

Not ideal, but pretty fucking close.


It's not always this simple though. For example, right now in Canada there are numerous examples of Provincial and Federal governments working with international corporations in attempting to force resource extraction projects (like mines and pipelines) onto unwilling local communities.

I don't see why a federation of local communities couldn't also agree on what a stop sign means and looks like, but having the power structure be from the bottom up would definitely help prevent centralized representative bodies from forcing unpopular pipelines and mines onto local communities.


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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25688894 -

What you envision is a conceptual Holy Roman Empire pipedream. Confederations of "tribes" (communinites) and 'non-defined' autonomous areas is a recipe for disaster. Don't act like that exact system hasn't been tried before throughout almost every region of the world throughout history. It is not sustainable and 100% of the time encourages segregation, resource hoarding, toxic regionalism and civil war. Remember the articles of confederation? Remember the reasons it didn't work out? Remember the holy roman empire? Remember how that sucked until Germany was unified and all the semi-independent autonomous states were combined into one, strong nation? We study history so we don't repeat it.

In my opinion, the most "ideal" system is something close to what America has. State governments with their own respective power and authority, all curtailed and unified under a federal authority. Ensure states have a governemnt that can focus on itself, while also benefitting the nation as a whole. You cannot trust a confederation of autonomous regions to cooperate efficiently. It never happens.


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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: Enlil]
    #25688895 -

Enlil said:
shivas.wisdom said:
I think that if we acknowledge that centralized representation is insufficient, we should take steps to properly address this issue.



We have.  There are several levels of government more localized than state government.  It seems to work pretty well.


But the power dynamic is still top-down. I'm arguing for one that is bottom-up. See my previous response to you for a little further explanation of why.


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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: Near Dylan] * 1
    #25688929 -

I wouldn't say that the Holy Roman Empire, being a series of decentralized monarchies, is representative of my position. A monarchy doesn't advance individual autonomy, and I'm not surprised to hear that individuals who submit to a central authority (even if that authority is a local one) would end up falling into sectarianism.


Near Dylan said:
It is not sustainable and 100% of the time encourages segregation, resource hoarding, toxic regionalism and civil war.


Do you have any sources for this claim? It seems that I could just as easily claim that the nation-state encourages segregation (militarized borders), resource hoarding (protectionist trade), toxic regionalism (nationalism) and global war.

Going beyond that, without a doubt the worst crimes of humanity have been committed by these "strong nations" you describe. It's interesting you talk about how we study history so we don't repeat it, immediately after you mention the unification of Germany as a positive change, without making any mention of the two world wars and multiple genocides that resulted from the creation of these strong nations.





Near Dylan said:
In my opinion, the most "ideal" system is something close to what America has. State governments with their own respective power and authority, all curtailed and unified under a federal authority. Ensure states have a governemnt that can focus on itself, while also benefitting the nation as a whole. You cannot trust a confederation of autonomous regions to cooperate efficiently. It never happens.


So then my question would be: how do you determine what qualifies as a State? It seems like an arbitrary designation to me.


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Re: Which form of govt. do you think works best? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25688954 -

You could argue that the current system is bottom up. States, like citizens, have to defend their rights. When the war on drugs was called for overstepping states rights the states could have spoke up and done something about it, they could have rejected it, they could have fought it in coirt, but they didn't. If you don't protect a right then don't be surprised when you lose it. The problems your complaining about on the federal level are also on the state and local levels, the problems started on the local level. It's not like your elected representatives that comprise the federal government come from DC, you voted for them in your locale.

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