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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1524230 - 05/06/03 10:36 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

and what about the Earth? can anyone really claim ownership of raw natural resources?



I agree to some extent. However, if the government can't claim ownership, then neither can corporations.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1524244 - 05/06/03 10:42 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

mushmaster writes:

well i certainly didn't recognize it at the time.

Then even more kudos to you for being able to shake off the brainwashing.

we were taught that when the market was down (and unemployment up), the government had to 'pump money' into it via tax cuts and a reduced fed rate to get it back up again, and when inflation was high, had to discourage spending by a higher fed rate or higher taxes.

Typical Keynesian claptrap. The government doesn't have to do any such thing. Long before governments held the power over the economy that they do today, there were "boom and bust" cycles. The key word here is "cycles". Government's attempts to ameliorate these unavoidable cycles does nothing but present false information as to what is really going on. The market cannot operate properly without accurate information -- this is the major reason why Communist economies invariably suck so badly. In many cases, the unintended consequences of such intervention is worse than doing nothing at all -- see The Great Depression.

also, what does a laissez faire system do about currency?

People use whatever currency they feel most comfortable with -- usually gold and silver.

can anyone really claim ownership of raw natural resources?

Yes.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1524251 - 05/06/03 10:46 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

One of the main reasons that I am in favor of social programs is so that we do not have that happen again.

So your justification for forcible mass violation of individual rights is to avoid the convulsions that occurred at the dawn of the Industrial Age? Interesting.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1524274 - 05/06/03 10:54 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 writes:

One of the main reasons that I am in favor of social programs is so that we do not have that happen again.

So your justification for forcible mass violation of individual rights is to avoid the convulsions that occurred at the dawn of the Industrial Age? Interesting.



I know it's not the best system. But until someone comes up with a better system, I'd rather hold on to the one we have than just let people starve. Also, notice I said "social programs" rather than welfare. I don't think these people should get a paycheck as long as they are provided with adequate food, shelter, clothing, and basic health care.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1524275 - 05/06/03 10:54 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

"can anyone really claim ownership of raw natural resources?

Yes."

first come first serve?


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Anonymous

Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1524280 - 05/06/03 10:55 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

considering the HUGE amount of money stolen each year from some people who earned to give to some people who didn't, i don't think the poor are much better off for it.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1524284 - 05/06/03 10:57 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

mushmaster writes:

first come first serve?

Pretty much, yeah. You might want to check into how gold claims were handled back in the gold rush days as a primer on the concept.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1524287 - 05/06/03 10:58 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

How about this: instead of using income tax, what about paying for these social programs with sales tax? Then it would be taken out of money you spend, rather than money you earn.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1524295 - 05/06/03 11:01 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

well... the money i spend is typically money i earned somewhere along the way.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1524298 - 05/06/03 11:01 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

True, but you CHOOSE to spend it, rather than having it "forcefully extorted" out of you.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1524302 - 05/06/03 11:04 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

I know it's not the best system.

Well, at least we agree on something, then.

But until someone comes up with a better system, I'd rather hold on to the one we have than just let people starve.

See, the point where your "rather" and my rights come into conflict is right there. Any time a "rather" trumps a right is a time when freedom is destroyed.

As a side point, do you honestly believe that if there were no such thing as welfare the streets of America would be littered with the corpses of those who had died from starvation?

Also, notice I said "social programs" rather than welfare.

No difference. All such programs require the forcible mass violation of individual rights in order to exist. C'est tout la meme chose.

I don't think these people should get a paycheck as long as they are provided with adequate food, shelter, clothing, and basic health care.

Food, shelter, clothing and basic health care stolen from whom?

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1524308 - 05/06/03 11:08 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

As a side point, do you honestly believe that if there were no such thing as welfare the streets of America would be littered with the corpses of those who had died from starvation?



I believe it would be a lot like England in Dickens' novels. People will do what is necessary to survive, so most wouldn't necessarily die, but many would turn to theft as a means for getting food.

Quote:

I don't think these people should get a paycheck as long as they are provided with adequate food, shelter, clothing, and basic health care.

Food, shelter, clothing and basic health care stolen from whom?



Read my posts above about sales tax.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1524320 - 05/06/03 11:13 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

Read my posts above about sales tax.

Tax is tax. Taxes may be levied only to finance the legitimate functions of government, and even then only when all other means of raising revenue have been exhausted.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1524323 - 05/06/03 11:14 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

what is money for? if i'm not gonna spend it, what the point of having it? money is there to be spent.

taking money away from me every time i spend a little of it is still stealing from me.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1524334 - 05/06/03 11:19 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 writes:

Read my posts above about sales tax.

Tax is tax. Taxes may be levied only to finance the legitimate functions of government, and even then only when all other means of raising revenue have been exhausted.



I personally consider providing for the welfare of the people to be a legitimate function of the government. How that is done is debatable.

"The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts, and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."--Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1524338 - 05/06/03 11:22 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

what is money for? if i'm not gonna spend it, what the point of having it? money is there to be spent.

taking money away from me every time i spend a little of it is still stealing from me.



This is just a matter of where the money goes. You purchase an item knowing how much it will cost and how much sales tax it will be. You don't decide where the money goes. This is true with or without the sales tax. Every time you buy a soft drink, you are inadvertently providing a campaign contribution to the Democratic and/or Republican party.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1524349 - 05/06/03 11:27 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

This is just a matter of where the money goes. You purchase an item knowing how much it will cost and how much sales tax it will be. You don't decide where the money goes. This is true with or without the sales tax. Every time you buy a soft drink, you are inadvertently providing a campaign contribution to the Democratic and/or Republican party.

yes, but until a sales tax is imposed, all of this is voluntary. sales taxes aren't so much taken away from the money i spend buying things but the money someone else earns selling something. it's really a tax on them, not me. and it's not voluntary.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1524366 - 05/06/03 11:34 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

This is just a matter of where the money goes. You purchase an item knowing how much it will cost and how much sales tax it will be. You don't decide where the money goes. This is true with or without the sales tax. Every time you buy a soft drink, you are inadvertently providing a campaign contribution to the Democratic and/or Republican party.

yes, but until a sales tax is imposed, all of this is voluntary. sales taxes aren't so much taken away from the money i spend buying things but the money someone else earns selling something. it's really a tax on them, not me. and it's not voluntary.



Who says everything has to be voluntary? The police can't make criminals voluntarily go to prison. Besides, a person selling something voluntarily goes into that business.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1524498 - 05/06/03 12:33 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

"The police can't make criminals voluntarily go to prison."

let us be clear that government = force. that's essentially all a government is. force. all governmental policies are backed up by the threat of force. the only reason force should ever be applied is to counter force iniated against innocent people. in the example you just gave, that's exactly what the government is doing.

Besides, a person selling something voluntarily goes into that business.

when someone opens a business, they are acting as they see fit. their actions do not initiate force or fraud against other individuals. opening a business is therefore a RIGHT. you should not face penalties for excercising a right.

i voluntarily choose to go on living each day. i shouldn't be subjected to a tax for doing so.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1524545 - 05/06/03 12:52 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

let us be clear that government = force. that's essentially all a government is. force

It's obviously a damn sight more than that. Providing health care for people who would otherwise be dying on the street isn't what I'd call "force".

But certainly to prevent large multi-billion dollar corporations laying waste to the environment, re-introducing child labour and ruining the quality of life for millions of people some degree of power is required.


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