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OfflineCultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 595
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1520918 - 05/04/03 11:50 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I guess my last post was directed at you also


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
    #1520927 - 05/04/03 11:56 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

There is only one legitimate function of government -- to protect its citizens from those who would initiate force (or fraud) against them.

For this reason, government must have cops (to protect us from internal force, i,e, criminals), courts (to punish criminals and settle disputes between honest folks) and military (to protect us from external force).

That's it, that's all -- cops, courts, and military. Anything else -- and I mean ANYTHING else -- that government involves itself in is an abrogation of power to which it is not entitled. It follows than any revenue the government collects to fund anything other than cops, courts, and military is stolen revenue.

pinky


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OfflineCultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 595
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1520935 - 05/04/03 11:59 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

So what about Public Education? Do you believe you would be as educated as you are right now? Could your parenst afford Private education? And no way that citizens would take it upon themselves to educate the masses. Im sure youve benefited form some sort of government affiliated program.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1520940 - 05/05/03 12:00 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

There is only one legitimate function of government -- to protect its citizens from those who would initiate force (or fraud) against them.



Says you. There are many people(including myself) who see things a bit differently. One must accept this subjective premise you mention in order to believe the rest of your statement.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (05/05/03 12:01 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
    #1520960 - 05/05/03 12:10 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

CultyVader writes:

So what about Public Education?

What about it? Is it part of cops, courts, and military? No? Then the government has no right to involve itself in it, and certainly no right to take money from people to pay for it.

Could your parenst afford Private education?

Irrelevant.

And no way that citizens would take it upon themselves to educate the masses.

What's your point?

Im sure youve benefited form some sort of government affiliated program.

Again, irrelevant. I had no choice in the matter. Have you ever heard of Truancy Laws?

pinky


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1520967 - 05/05/03 12:15 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

There are many people(including myself) who see things a bit differently.

The number of adherents a proposition has is irrelevant to its validity.

One must accept this subjective premise you mention in order to believe the rest of your statement.

There is nothing subjective about the observation that a government has the obligation to protect its citizens from the violation of their rights. On the other hand there is everything subjective (not to mention contradictory) about claiming that government has the right to violate the rights of its citizens.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineCultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 595
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1520974 - 05/05/03 12:18 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Why are these questions irrelevant? I believe they are very important. You probably wouldnt even be alive because the infant mortality rates would be through the roof.


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
    #1520976 - 05/05/03 12:19 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You probably wouldnt even be alive because the infant mortality rates would be through the roof.



How exacly do you know this?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineCultyVader
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Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 595
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1520977 - 05/05/03 12:20 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

You talk of this role the government should play but you wont discuss the effects it will have on this country. Your not addressing the most important part of your argument


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1521057 - 05/05/03 01:11 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 writes:

There are many people(including myself) who see things a bit differently.

The number of adherents a proposition has is irrelevant to its validity.



My point was that your premise is hardly universally accepted, and cannot be proven.

Quote:

One must accept this subjective premise you mention in order to believe the rest of your statement.

There is nothing subjective about the observation that a government has the obligation to protect its citizens from the violation of their rights.



How so?

Quote:

On the other hand there is everything subjective (not to mention contradictory) about claiming that government has the right to violate the rights of its citizens.



What are these "rights" you mention? Are you referring to the idea of natural rights? This is also a subjective issue. The existence of these natural rights has yet to be proven(I doubt it even could be proven).


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1521073 - 05/05/03 01:22 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

That's it, that's all -- cops, courts, and military. Anything else -- and I mean ANYTHING else -- that government involves itself in is an abrogation of power to which it is not entitled. It follows than any revenue the government collects to fund anything other than cops, courts, and military is stolen revenue

So who do you presume exercises power in such a situation? Those with the money to buy it?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
    #1521384 - 05/05/03 08:15 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

CultyVader writes:

Why are these questions irrelevant?

They are irrelevant because they have nothing to do with deciding what the legitimate functions of government should be restricted to.

I believe they are very important.

I have no doubt you do. That doesn't make them relevant to the topic under discussion.

You probably wouldnt even be alive because the infant mortality rates would be through the roof.

Unlikely. Babies survived and population increased long before the government decided to involve itself in health care.

You talk of this role the government should play...

More accurately, I speak of the role government shouldn't play.

... but you wont discuss the effects it will have on this country.

A return to the strictly limited government envisioned and described so carefully by the Founding Fathers would have a positive effect on the US, or any country for that matter.

Your not addressing the most important part of your argument.

I'm not arguing anything. I am pointing out that government in a civilized society has one and only one function that justifies its existence -- the protection of individuals from the initiation of physical force (and fraud) by other humans. If human nature was such that humans were incapable of initiating force against each other, there would be no need for government at all.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1521399 - 05/05/03 08:27 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

My point was that your premise is hardly universally accepted...

There will always be those who cannot grasp certain concepts. This doesn't invalidate those concepts.

... and cannot be proven.

Not only can it be proven, it has been -- repeatedly, by many.

How so?

How so? Through the application of the objective and impartial body of law laying out the proper response to those who initiate force and/or fraud against others.

What are these "rights" you mention?

Rights are defined as the freedom to act in whatever manner you choose, always providing that such actions do not constitute an initiation (or credible threat of initiation) of physical force (or fraud) against any other individual.

Are you referring to the idea of natural rights? This is also a subjective issue. The existence of these natural rights has yet to be proven(I doubt it even could be proven).

All humans are born with rights. That need not be "proven", merely discovered. Rights are not subjective, they are objective, and derive from man's observable nature and his requirements for continued existence.

pinky


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1521442 - 05/05/03 08:53 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Well done.  I enjoy your flawless logic.

If people want to help others  with their money that's cool by me.  I do it all the time.  But when you come to me with a gun and take mine it's called  stealing.

Bottom line?

Life is tough.  People starve to death.  You want to fix it?

Fucking donate and leave MY money the hell alone.

Thank you.

And have a Gr8 day!  :smile: 


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1521606 - 05/05/03 10:54 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

They are irrelevant because they have nothing to do with deciding what the legitimate functions of government should be restricted to.

Which is what exactly? "law enforcement and defence"? What if you get a situation as in Bolivia where a large corporation takes over the water supply and drives prices through the roof?

What defence do the people have against such behaviour? Without government, power will simply be exercised by those with the money to buy it.

Babies survived and population increased long before the government decided to involve itself in health care.

So you are saying national health care has no effect whatsoever on infant mortality rates? Utterly ludicrous.

The NHS has played a major role in improving the health of the population. Since the NHS was founded, life expectancy has increased by 7.6 years for men and 7.8 years for women, or roughly one and a half years a decade. Over the same period, infant mortality rates have fallen by more than 80% (from 40 per 1,000 live births to 6 per 1,000).

the protection of individuals from the initiation of physical force (and fraud) by other humans

This makes no sense whatsoever. What protection do you have from the myriad other human rights abuses apart from "physical force"? What if the local corporation builds a factory next to your house and starts dumping toxic waste in your garden? This would involve no "physical force" whatsoever but it would still be a grave infringement on your human rights.

Bottom line - there is no profit in helping the sick, the weak, the disabled, the environment or protecting human rights. These would be the first victims of your "new world order".


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1521664 - 05/05/03 11:23 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 writes:

My point was that your premise is hardly universally accepted...

There will always be those who cannot grasp certain concepts. This doesn't invalidate those concepts.

... and cannot be proven.

Not only can it be proven, it has been -- repeatedly, by many.

How so?

How so? Through the application of the objective and impartial body of law laying out the proper response to those who initiate force and/or fraud against others.



What "objective" and "impartial" body of law are you referring to? You are simply stating an opinion as fact.

Quote:

What are these "rights" you mention?

Rights are defined as the freedom to act in whatever manner you choose, always providing that such actions do not constitute an initiation (or credible threat of initiation) of physical force (or fraud) against any other individual.

Are you referring to the idea of natural rights? This is also a subjective issue. The existence of these natural rights has yet to be proven(I doubt it even could be proven).

All humans are born with rights. That need not be "proven", merely discovered. Rights are not subjective, they are objective, and derive from man's observable nature and his requirements for continued existence.



Prove it.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1521757 - 05/05/03 12:06 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

What "objective" and "impartial" body of law are you referring to?

Law based on the objective principle that it is illegal to violate someone's rights. For example, it is an objective fact that if you steal someone's property, you violate his rights. It is the government's obligation to prevent that individual from doing so again, and to return your property to you if possible. Government may not dodge this obligation, it MUST attempt to do this -- it is government's only reason for existing.

The law is impartial in that it applies to all, whether a Bill Gates or a street bum.

Prove it.

One need not prove an axiom, but I will expand it a bit for you.

1 Humans are born with the ability to act -- it is an attribute of their nature. No one need grant freedom of action to a human, it is an observable fact that humans act volitionally.

2 Any human must perform a series of consciously directed actions in order to remain alive. Again, there is no need to prove this -- it is an observable fact.

3 -- It follows, then, that any action one human undertakes which nullifies the freedom of action of another human reduces the ability of said human to remain alive.

4 -- Hence, the only time it is correct to interfere with the actions of another human is when his actions prevent another human from acting as he sees fit.

5 -- Since only physical force (and by extension, fraud) can prevent a human from acting as he sees fit, it is only the initiation of physical force by humans against other humans which need be addressed.

In a civilized society, the task of addressing this initiation of force is delegated collectively (except in a self-defense emergency where no government agents are available) to the organs of government -- cops, courts, military. Nothing more is needed to protect the rights of individuals -- not hospitals, or fiat currency, or schools, or regulations about who may operate a TV station and what they may show on it.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1521776 - 05/05/03 12:15 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

What if you get a situation as in Bolivia where a large corporation takes over the water supply and drives prices through the roof?

Is this large corporation forcibly preventing people from obtaining water from other sources than the corporation? If so, that corporation is acting illegally and the government must intervene.

Without government, power will simply be exercised by those with the money to buy it.

You confuse me with the anarchists. I have never said there should be no government. I have always said that there MUST be government.

So you are saying national health care has no effect whatsoever on infant mortality rates?

No, I am not saying such a thing.

What if the local corporation builds a factory next to your house and starts dumping toxic waste in your garden?

They are initiating physical force by using my property for their own purposes against my will. The government is obligated to stop them.

pinky


--------------------


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1522181 - 05/05/03 03:01 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 writes:

What "objective" and "impartial" body of law are you referring to?

Law based on the objective principle that it is illegal to violate someone's rights. For example, it is an objective fact that if you steal someone's property, you violate his rights. It is the government's obligation to prevent that individual from doing so again, and to return your property to you if possible. Government may not dodge this obligation, it MUST attempt to do this -- it is government's only reason for existing.

The law is impartial in that it applies to all, whether a Bill Gates or a street bum.



So did the government steal my tax dollars when they used them to wage a war in Iraq, to which I was opposed?

Quote:

Prove it.

One need not prove an axiom, but I will expand it a bit for you.

1 Humans are born with the ability to act -- it is an attribute of their nature. No one need grant freedom of action to a human, it is an observable fact that humans act volitionally.



True, but when people enter into a social contract with the government, they give away certain freedoms in exchange for protection.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1522297 - 05/05/03 03:38 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So did the government steal my tax dollars when they used them to wage a war in Iraq, to which I was opposed?



Yes.

Quote:

True, but when people enter into a social contract with the government, they give away certain freedoms in exchange for protection.



Have you ever entered into any contract with the Federal Government? I haven't.

From Black's Law Dictionary, fifth edition:

Contract. An agreement between two or more persons which creates an obligation to do or not to do a particular thing. Its essentials are competent parties, subject matter, a legal consideration, mutuality of agreement, and mutuality of obligation.

The term 'social contract' is a fiction of political philosophy used to justify the whims of the state, it is the offspring of the equally spurious, 'divine right of kings.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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