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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Individual Rights
    #1348779 - 03/03/03 10:03 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I keep hearing conservatives saying how Socialists are against "individual rights," and I always scratch my head when I hear them say that. I consider myself a Socialist, but not sure what they mean when they say that. Could you please clarify and give some examples of what "individual rights" you think I'm against, and I'll tell you whether or not I am.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: silversoul7]
    #1348785 - 03/03/03 10:07 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The right to bear arms, the right to travel freely, the right to work where you want, the right of practicing what religion you want, the right to live without your kids teacher calling the secret police because you spoke against the government, etcetera.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1348798 - 03/03/03 10:18 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The right to bear arms, the right to travel freely, the right to work where you want, the right of practicing what religion you want, the right to live without your kids teacher calling the secret police because you spoke against the government, etcetera.



You seem to be confusing Socialism with Communism, as I suspected someone might. I assure you they are not the same. While Communism is a form of Socialism, it is not the only form. There are Socialist Democracies as well.

I personally am in favor of all the rights you mention, even the right to bear arms(to some extent).

Edit: Next accusation?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (03/03/03 10:25 PM)


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: silversoul7]
    #1348806 - 03/03/03 10:25 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I've got a neighbor that lived in a eastern bloc country under the Soviets before making it to America. Her and her family suffered financial, political, and almost every other type of oppression you can imagine. Now, with that image in peoples minds, why do you think it is that people might be a little disgusted at the idea of socialism?


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1348807 - 03/03/03 10:26 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Did I or did I not just explain to you that Socialism and Communism are not the same thing?


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: silversoul7]
    #1348814 - 03/03/03 10:32 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Have you read the communist manifesto? I have. It makes it clear that socialism is a necessary step to final communism. A long step that the Soviets never got past.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1348822 - 03/03/03 10:38 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

As a matter of fact, I have read the Communist Manifesto. A great indictment of Capitalism, but I disagree with Marx's proposed solution. Now, as I stated, Communism is indeed a FORM of Socialism, but is not the ONLY form. There are more moderate forms of Socialism as well, which can be seen in places like Denmark or Holland. I guess you couldn't quite say that I'm totally Socialist, since I do believe that private enterprise should be allowed, although I believe the state should own certain means of production. Basically, I just believe America should move in a more Socialist direction, but I don't advocate absolute Socialism.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: silversoul7]
    #1348825 - 03/03/03 10:41 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I'm in favor of all those rights too.

I'm sort of against the right to be a billionaire though.

Does communism neccessarily have to involve the government deciding your religion etc? Isn't communism just a theory of ownership? Just cuz the totalitarian Soviets practised that form don't mean you can't collectively own the means of production and be free. Does it?

Yah, the Soviet system was nuts...but collective ownership isn't nuts. It's democratic...I likes my power company to be publicly owned. It exists for the people. (Cheap power) and provides good, well paying jobs. Everytine they privatize something, the price goes up, the quality goes down, and people lose their jobs. All while the (few) owners increase profits.

Even you anti-socialist USA types out there, don't you walk on socialist sidewalks, drive on socialist roads, (government built, collectively owned). It's not so bad is it? Or should they privatize sidewalks. Maybe there could be a little toll booth on your boulevard when you walk to the store. That would be nice and capitalist. Wouldn't it?






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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1348826 - 03/03/03 10:41 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Taken from the Cambridge Dictionary Online:

socialism
noun
the set of beliefs which states that all people are equal and should share equally in the wealth of the country, or the political systems based on these beliefs

communism
noun
the belief in a classless society in which the methods of production are owned and controlled by all its members and everyone works as much as they can and receives what they need


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: silversoul7]
    #1348827 - 03/03/03 10:42 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

although I believe the state should own certain means of production.

Like what, and why?




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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1348829 - 03/03/03 10:45 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Even you anti-socialist USA types out there, don't you walk on socialist sidewalks, drive on socialist roads, (government built, collectively owned). It's not so bad is it? Or should they privatize sidewalks. Maybe there could be a little toll booth on your boulevard when you walk to the store. That would be nice and capitalist. Wouldn't it?




"One does not sell the land people walk on." ... Crazy Horse, Sept. 23, 1875

To paraphrase Crazy Horse; Hey man, the streets and sidewalks are for everyone.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineJammer
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1348836 - 03/03/03 10:51 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

"I likes my power company to be publicly owned. It exists for the people





I feel the same way...

However, on a related note, I was shocked when I heard that the water company for the modest size city of Lexington Kentucky (they had a vote) is now owned by a group from Germany! -I feel that this is crazy. I feel the people that drink and bath the water should own/controll the water company.


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>>Jammer>>


Edited by Jammer (03/03/03 10:53 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: Skikid16]
    #1348837 - 03/03/03 10:54 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "means of production." What I should have said was that I'm in favor of the state running certain vital services, such as the postal service, police and fire department(I think only the most die-hard libertarians would argue with me there), and health care. I feel that any service which provides for the general welfare of the people should be state-owned and funded by taxes.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1348840 - 03/03/03 10:56 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I'm sort of against the right to be a billionaire though.

If you earned it, why do you not deserve it?


. (Cheap power) and provides good, well paying jobs.

So how does it provide well paying wages and salaries if it is cheap? Their profit margin must be huge, so the costs must be extremely low. What type of plant is it, cause if its running on fossil fuels, you know that costs can't be low.

Does a portion of the wages come from tax payer's money?


Everytine they privatize something, the price goes up, the quality goes down


That's why Russia became the industrial prototype for the world under communism? Hmm.....yeah come to think of it, I just drove from work in my Russian car, to turn on my Russian-made computer, while sitting in my Russian-made chair.......(do you get the picture?)

Collective ownership drives down the quality. There is less incentive to make better products if there isn't a chance of recieving better profits for that better product. True, in a capitalistic market there are "cheap" products, but that is only because there is a market segment of people willing to have lower quality products in exchange for a lower price. But there is also the market for high quality goods. I mean think about it, BMW has been around in the US than say Daewoo. Do you see what I'm getting at?

don't you walk on socialist sidewalks, drive on socialist roads, (government built, collectively owned). It's not so bad is it?

In my town, a good majority of the sidewalks, and the roads for that matter are in horrible conditions.


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Edited by Skikid16 (03/03/03 11:04 PM)


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: Skikid16]
    #1348866 - 03/03/03 11:12 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Collective ownership drives down the quality. There is less incentive to make better products if there isn't a chance of recieving better profits for that better product.

There are some good examples of companies owned in full or in part by the employees that are successful, have super morale, and turn out quality products. As part owners, the workers have a strong monetary incentive for the company to be as profitable as possible.

I'd like to add. Personally, I'm in favor of utilities and essential services being owned by local governments.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Anonymous

Re: Individual Rights [Re: silversoul7]
    #1348867 - 03/03/03 11:12 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I keep hearing conservatives saying how Socialists are against "individual rights," and I always scratch my head when I hear them say that. I consider myself a Socialist, but not sure what they mean when they say that. Could you please clarify and give some examples of what "individual rights" you think I'm against, and I'll tell you whether or not I am.




Examples could be hard to come by but basically socialism puts the rights of the state more importance than the rights of an individual.

Think of every place where you think a collective group of people should be able to force an individual to do something they don't want to do or not do something they want to do. The proviso always is that the action or inaction will not harm another (with harm being strictly defined).

Hope that helps.

Cheers,


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1348889 - 03/03/03 11:26 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

There are some good examples of companies owned in full or in part by the employees that are successful, have super morale, and turn out quality products. As part owners, the workers have a strong monetary incentive for the company to be as profitable as possible.

Like what examples? I'm not saying you are wrong, and I should have specified in a controlled economy, rather than mere collective ownership. Sorry.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: Skikid16]
    #1348896 - 03/03/03 11:32 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

A couple months ago I watched a documentary about a pipe making company in new york that was willed to the employees by the owner in the 20's and it consistantly on the best companies to work for list and all the employees become very well off depending how long they work there. I don't rememer the name of the company. And I don't think a company like that is an anomoly either. I think group ownership and to a lesser extent employee stock options is a strong incentive to make the company more profitable so that you'll get more money. That way team work = more cash in your account.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Individual Rights [Re: silversoul7]
    #1348897 - 03/03/03 11:33 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

socialism
noun
the set of beliefs which states that all people are equal and should share equally in the wealth of the country, or the political systems based on these beliefs




People are NOT equal. Some will always be... smarter, harder working, better looking, faster, stronger, more ambitious, more caring and so on. If someone is willing to work more or take more risks, they deserve more.

Equal opportunity is the only equality there should be.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Individual Rights [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1348898 - 03/03/03 11:34 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

And equal status under the law.


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