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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
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Welfare just doesnt work.
#1520519 - 05/04/03 09:32 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Welfare is a trap. Its not stealing from taxpayers money, or a way to rebuild ones life. Its merely a neverending loop of poverty that few have recovered from. How is a family sopposed to get away from welfare when it provides them: Time to raise their children, almost free money because in order to qualify you cannot have a high paying job, they dont have to work forty hours a week at a shitty dead-end job like the rest of us. Lets just say that this family wants out of the welfare system right? How are they going to do that? They must take on a low paying job that requires a lot of time and energy and pays-most of the time well below the poverty line- not nearly enough of the costs they must pay out to have a third party take care of their children. The cost of child care not to mention GOOD childcare is huge and you add this to the fact that they must work a lot to squeeze by, you have absolutely NO reason to leave welfare in the first place. Now of course we need to get people back on their own two feet how do we do this? How about government provided childcare for those who cannot afford such a "luxury". what about training programs to allow a more highly skilled trade? Maybe these are already being done someone please let me know. What are some other good sounding alternatives?
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520529 - 05/04/03 09:37 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Relocation program.
I think most people who are poor just live somewhere economically unfeasable for someone in their position. They need to move out to the country where you can buy a house for $30,000, and $200 a week is plenty to get by on.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1520545 - 05/04/03 09:43 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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I just dont think thats feasible at all. Where do you find jobs out in the country? Relocation would never be accepted among the people. Also i dont think houses would stay cheap for very long if people were living there. It seems like it would just create ghettos in the country, where law is thin and and public services couldnt acomodate.
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520579 - 05/04/03 09:56 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Welfare just doesnt work. ding ding ding! tell him what he's won!
Edited by mushmaster (05/04/03 09:56 PM)
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1520597 - 05/04/03 10:01 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Any ideas mushmaster? Or just blatant sarcasm?
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520601 - 05/04/03 10:03 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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you must not hang around here much.
tell him folks.
does mushmaster like welfare!?
crowd: NOOOO!!!!!
no sarcasm intended.
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1520613 - 05/04/03 10:06 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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You must have some kind of thought about how to deal with the poverty and the destitution. Well if its going to radically change the direction of this thread then dont say it.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520644 - 05/04/03 10:16 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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With the decline of blue-collar jobs in this country, there's not much available to someone who doesn't have a college education. Minimum wage is not enough to sustain oneself, let alone raise a family, as some people do. There are people working 2 or even 3 minimum wage jobs who are just barely making ends meet. This countries industries have moved overseas, where they can get cheaper labor, so many of these people are just out of luck. Until a viable alternative is found, welfare is all that many people have to rely on.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520677 - 05/04/03 10:27 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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i have no problem with people getting a helping hand when they're down on their luck. what i do have a problem with is that money being taken at gunpoint from peaceful citizens. we cannot eliminate poverty by paying people not to work.
Edited by mushmaster (05/05/03 05:52 PM)
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1520687 - 05/04/03 10:31 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Can you offer anything constructive?
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1520696 - 05/04/03 10:32 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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What about provided childcare? That would alleviate a huge burden on most poor families.
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silversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520701 - 05/04/03 10:34 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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That would certainly be a good start. Little known fact: a large percentage of welfare goes to children.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1520724 - 05/04/03 10:38 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Through the parents of course. You take the burden of children away and they can easily climb their way back up. It might even make foodstamps much more effective.
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520752 - 05/04/03 10:48 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Can you offer anything constructive?
i don't think so. my view is that it's not the job of the government to feed, clothe, and house the people, especially when doing this means robbing money from some to give to others.
can't support children? don't have any.
each summer i go up to maine to work on poor folk's houses. generally it's the rooves that are caving in. i help put new roofing on, free of charge, for a couple weeks each summer.
i like doing it. i'm glad to help out. if i were forced at gunpoint to go do it, it'd be a very different story.
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silversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1520763 - 05/04/03 10:50 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
can't support children? don't have any.
20/20 hindsight can be a real bitch sometimes.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1520768 - 05/04/03 10:51 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Do you want welfare to completely go away? Dont you think that would just exacerbate the whole crime problem?
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silversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520773 - 05/04/03 10:53 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do you want welfare to completely go away? Dont you think that would just exacerbate the whole crime problem?
Exactly. I'd rather get robbed of part of my paycheck by the government than get robbed at gunpoint by someone starving for food.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1520788 - 05/04/03 10:57 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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at least when someone (other than the taxman) is trying to rob you, it's not illegal to defend yourself.
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silversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1520795 - 05/04/03 10:58 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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True, but it can still get you killed.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1520797 - 05/04/03 10:59 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Are you some kind of anarchist or something? where do your politcal beliefs fit in the scale?
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1520807 - 05/04/03 11:01 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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ahem... a little beatles for the crowd...
"Let me tell you how it will be There's one for you, nineteen for me 'cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
Should five percent appear too small Be thankful I don't take it all 'cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
If you drive a car, I'll tax the street If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat If you get too cold, I'll tax the heat If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet Taxman
'Cause I'm the taxman, Yeah, I'm the taxman
Don't ask me what I want it for If you don't want to pay some more 'cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
Now my advice for those who die Declare the pennies on your eyes 'cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman And you're working for no one but me"
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1520817 - 05/04/03 11:05 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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you really dont have any defense to youre argument do you? You say welfare is bad and itd be better if it was gone so you can shoot people. This is soo rediculous how doesn anyone take you seriously?
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520819 - 05/04/03 11:06 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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libertarian.
for me it really just boils down to respect for liberty. any man (or woman), as long as he does not invade upon the rights of others, should be free to do as he wishes with his mind, his body, his time, and his money.
the only role of the state should be to uphold and protect liberty.
to me, anything else is unnatural.
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z@z.com
Libertarian
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Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520822 - 05/04/03 11:07 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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So your argument is that it is ok to take money from me and give it to someone else?
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1520827 - 05/04/03 11:09 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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ok, but dont you think huge masses of poverty stricken people would eventually encroach on your rights or your liberty? Especially your body like you mentioned earlier about gunpointing and whatnot.
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520839 - 05/04/03 11:12 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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If they did it would be illegial and they would go to jail for what they do. I would also be able to defend myself if they tried to steal from me. I also think we would have fewer poor people with no welfare. That is also one of the same arguments they use to keep drugs illegial.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
Edited by z@z.com (05/04/03 11:13 PM)
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1520841 - 05/04/03 11:12 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well lets just get on the same page here. Do you agree that poverty in so many us citizens is a problem? Also do agree that some kind of action (not necessarily aid but ANY action) should be taken on this matter? Or shoudl we just ignore it?
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z@z.com
Libertarian
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Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520846 - 05/04/03 11:14 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Action should be taken, but the government should have no part of it.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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CultyVader
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1520852 - 05/04/03 11:16 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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It seems like youre leaning to a time closer resembling the old west. There were a lot of poor people back then too. Killing poor people is not going to solve this. And neither is jail. Besides we have to pay to put people in jail and i hear its a lot more expensive per inmate to support thgem in there than to support them outside of jail.
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1520856 - 05/04/03 11:17 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Who then? Just out of sheer curiosity.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520857 - 05/04/03 11:17 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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CultyVader writes:
Do you agree that poverty in so many us citizens is a problem?
Sure. But as you pointed out yourself, government policy (welfare) is one of the biggest reasons there are so many.
Also do agree that some kind of action (not necessarily aid but ANY action) should be taken on this matter?
Sure. Folks should help other folks. However, folks should not be forced to help other folks. Compassion at the point of a gun is not compassion, it's extortion.
pinky
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z@z.com
Libertarian
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Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520860 - 05/04/03 11:19 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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DId I ever say we should kill and imprison the poor?
What we should do is allow people to give to the poor and help them at their descretion. This would mean that the widow with three kids would recieve a lot more help than Johnny the lazy alcoholic with no job.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520863 - 05/04/03 11:19 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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CultyVader asks:
Who then? Just out of sheer curiosity.
If you wish to help the poor, no one will stop you.
pinky
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520869 - 05/04/03 11:20 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Who then? Just out of sheer curiosity.
Non profit organizations, individuals, religious groups and anyone who wants to lend a helping hand. I would (and do) gladly help the poor. There is a difference between helping them and throwing them handouts.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1520872 - 05/04/03 11:21 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
CultyVader asks:
Who then? Just out of sheer curiosity.
If you wish to help the poor, no one will stop you.
The question, then: Is it enough?
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1520879 - 05/04/03 11:24 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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That makes sense, a lot of sense and i could totally understand that as an argument. Addressing that though, do we have any examples where the government has left the public to its own devices to remedy a problem? Meaning, do you ahve any proof or exam[ples where this has worked?
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z@z.com
Libertarian
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Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1520882 - 05/04/03 11:25 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The question, then: Is it enough?
I believe that it would be, but that doesn't really matter. The point is that it is wrong to steal. Period. I don't care if it is a crackhead robbing me or the government it is still wrong.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520883 - 05/04/03 11:26 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Not off the top of my head and I'm heading to bed so I don't really have any time to find any. The point is that I know that the current system does not work. Plus it is wrong to rob peter to pay paul.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1520886 - 05/04/03 11:28 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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I just dont understand the government robbing thing. Do you think all taxes are robbery at gunpoint or just the ones directed at programs you dont believe in?
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1520915 - 05/04/03 11:46 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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silversoul7 writes:
The question, then: Is it enough?
Whether is is or it isn't, extorting money from peaceful individuals is too much.
pinky
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1520918 - 05/04/03 11:50 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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I guess my last post was directed at you also
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520927 - 05/04/03 11:56 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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There is only one legitimate function of government -- to protect its citizens from those who would initiate force (or fraud) against them.
For this reason, government must have cops (to protect us from internal force, i,e, criminals), courts (to punish criminals and settle disputes between honest folks) and military (to protect us from external force).
That's it, that's all -- cops, courts, and military. Anything else -- and I mean ANYTHING else -- that government involves itself in is an abrogation of power to which it is not entitled. It follows than any revenue the government collects to fund anything other than cops, courts, and military is stolen revenue.
pinky
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1520935 - 05/04/03 11:59 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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So what about Public Education? Do you believe you would be as educated as you are right now? Could your parenst afford Private education? And no way that citizens would take it upon themselves to educate the masses. Im sure youve benefited form some sort of government affiliated program.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1520940 - 05/05/03 12:00 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
There is only one legitimate function of government -- to protect its citizens from those who would initiate force (or fraud) against them.
Says you. There are many people(including myself) who see things a bit differently. One must accept this subjective premise you mention in order to believe the rest of your statement.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
Edited by silversoul7 (05/05/03 12:01 AM)
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520960 - 05/05/03 12:10 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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CultyVader writes:
So what about Public Education?
What about it? Is it part of cops, courts, and military? No? Then the government has no right to involve itself in it, and certainly no right to take money from people to pay for it.
Could your parenst afford Private education?
Irrelevant.
And no way that citizens would take it upon themselves to educate the masses.
What's your point?
Im sure youve benefited form some sort of government affiliated program.
Again, irrelevant. I had no choice in the matter. Have you ever heard of Truancy Laws?
pinky
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1520967 - 05/05/03 12:15 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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silversoul7 writes:
There are many people(including myself) who see things a bit differently.
The number of adherents a proposition has is irrelevant to its validity.
One must accept this subjective premise you mention in order to believe the rest of your statement.
There is nothing subjective about the observation that a government has the obligation to protect its citizens from the violation of their rights. On the other hand there is everything subjective (not to mention contradictory) about claiming that government has the right to violate the rights of its citizens.
pinky
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1520974 - 05/05/03 12:18 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why are these questions irrelevant? I believe they are very important. You probably wouldnt even be alive because the infant mortality rates would be through the roof.
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520976 - 05/05/03 12:19 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
You probably wouldnt even be alive because the infant mortality rates would be through the roof.
How exacly do you know this?
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

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Posts: 595
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1520977 - 05/05/03 12:20 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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You talk of this role the government should play but you wont discuss the effects it will have on this country. Your not addressing the most important part of your argument
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1521057 - 05/05/03 01:11 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 writes:
There are many people(including myself) who see things a bit differently.
The number of adherents a proposition has is irrelevant to its validity.
My point was that your premise is hardly universally accepted, and cannot be proven.
Quote:
One must accept this subjective premise you mention in order to believe the rest of your statement.
There is nothing subjective about the observation that a government has the obligation to protect its citizens from the violation of their rights.
How so?
Quote:
On the other hand there is everything subjective (not to mention contradictory) about claiming that government has the right to violate the rights of its citizens.
What are these "rights" you mention? Are you referring to the idea of natural rights? This is also a subjective issue. The existence of these natural rights has yet to be proven(I doubt it even could be proven).
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1521073 - 05/05/03 01:22 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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That's it, that's all -- cops, courts, and military. Anything else -- and I mean ANYTHING else -- that government involves itself in is an abrogation of power to which it is not entitled. It follows than any revenue the government collects to fund anything other than cops, courts, and military is stolen revenue
So who do you presume exercises power in such a situation? Those with the money to buy it?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1521384 - 05/05/03 08:15 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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CultyVader writes:
Why are these questions irrelevant?
They are irrelevant because they have nothing to do with deciding what the legitimate functions of government should be restricted to.
I believe they are very important.
I have no doubt you do. That doesn't make them relevant to the topic under discussion.
You probably wouldnt even be alive because the infant mortality rates would be through the roof.
Unlikely. Babies survived and population increased long before the government decided to involve itself in health care. You talk of this role the government should play...
More accurately, I speak of the role government shouldn't play.
... but you wont discuss the effects it will have on this country.
A return to the strictly limited government envisioned and described so carefully by the Founding Fathers would have a positive effect on the US, or any country for that matter.
Your not addressing the most important part of your argument.
I'm not arguing anything. I am pointing out that government in a civilized society has one and only one function that justifies its existence -- the protection of individuals from the initiation of physical force (and fraud) by other humans. If human nature was such that humans were incapable of initiating force against each other, there would be no need for government at all.
pinky
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1521399 - 05/05/03 08:27 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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silversoul7 writes:
My point was that your premise is hardly universally accepted...
There will always be those who cannot grasp certain concepts. This doesn't invalidate those concepts.
... and cannot be proven.
Not only can it be proven, it has been -- repeatedly, by many.
How so?
How so? Through the application of the objective and impartial body of law laying out the proper response to those who initiate force and/or fraud against others.
What are these "rights" you mention?
Rights are defined as the freedom to act in whatever manner you choose, always providing that such actions do not constitute an initiation (or credible threat of initiation) of physical force (or fraud) against any other individual.
Are you referring to the idea of natural rights? This is also a subjective issue. The existence of these natural rights has yet to be proven(I doubt it even could be proven).
All humans are born with rights. That need not be "proven", merely discovered. Rights are not subjective, they are objective, and derive from man's observable nature and his requirements for continued existence.
pinky
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1521442 - 05/05/03 08:53 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well done. I enjoy your flawless logic.
If people want to help others with their money that's cool by me. I do it all the time. But when you come to me with a gun and take mine it's called stealing.
Bottom line?
Life is tough. People starve to death. You want to fix it?
Fucking donate and leave MY money the hell alone.
Thank you.
And have a Gr8 day!
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1521606 - 05/05/03 10:54 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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They are irrelevant because they have nothing to do with deciding what the legitimate functions of government should be restricted to.
Which is what exactly? "law enforcement and defence"? What if you get a situation as in Bolivia where a large corporation takes over the water supply and drives prices through the roof?
What defence do the people have against such behaviour? Without government, power will simply be exercised by those with the money to buy it.
Babies survived and population increased long before the government decided to involve itself in health care.
So you are saying national health care has no effect whatsoever on infant mortality rates? Utterly ludicrous.
The NHS has played a major role in improving the health of the population. Since the NHS was founded, life expectancy has increased by 7.6 years for men and 7.8 years for women, or roughly one and a half years a decade. Over the same period, infant mortality rates have fallen by more than 80% (from 40 per 1,000 live births to 6 per 1,000).
the protection of individuals from the initiation of physical force (and fraud) by other humans
This makes no sense whatsoever. What protection do you have from the myriad other human rights abuses apart from "physical force"? What if the local corporation builds a factory next to your house and starts dumping toxic waste in your garden? This would involve no "physical force" whatsoever but it would still be a grave infringement on your human rights.
Bottom line - there is no profit in helping the sick, the weak, the disabled, the environment or protecting human rights. These would be the first victims of your "new world order".
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1521664 - 05/05/03 11:23 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 writes:
My point was that your premise is hardly universally accepted...
There will always be those who cannot grasp certain concepts. This doesn't invalidate those concepts.
... and cannot be proven.
Not only can it be proven, it has been -- repeatedly, by many.
How so?
How so? Through the application of the objective and impartial body of law laying out the proper response to those who initiate force and/or fraud against others.
What "objective" and "impartial" body of law are you referring to? You are simply stating an opinion as fact.
Quote:
What are these "rights" you mention?
Rights are defined as the freedom to act in whatever manner you choose, always providing that such actions do not constitute an initiation (or credible threat of initiation) of physical force (or fraud) against any other individual.
Are you referring to the idea of natural rights? This is also a subjective issue. The existence of these natural rights has yet to be proven(I doubt it even could be proven).
All humans are born with rights. That need not be "proven", merely discovered. Rights are not subjective, they are objective, and derive from man's observable nature and his requirements for continued existence.
Prove it.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1521757 - 05/05/03 12:06 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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silversoul7 writes:
What "objective" and "impartial" body of law are you referring to?
Law based on the objective principle that it is illegal to violate someone's rights. For example, it is an objective fact that if you steal someone's property, you violate his rights. It is the government's obligation to prevent that individual from doing so again, and to return your property to you if possible. Government may not dodge this obligation, it MUST attempt to do this -- it is government's only reason for existing.
The law is impartial in that it applies to all, whether a Bill Gates or a street bum.
Prove it.
One need not prove an axiom, but I will expand it a bit for you.
1 Humans are born with the ability to act -- it is an attribute of their nature. No one need grant freedom of action to a human, it is an observable fact that humans act volitionally.
2 Any human must perform a series of consciously directed actions in order to remain alive. Again, there is no need to prove this -- it is an observable fact.
3 -- It follows, then, that any action one human undertakes which nullifies the freedom of action of another human reduces the ability of said human to remain alive.
4 -- Hence, the only time it is correct to interfere with the actions of another human is when his actions prevent another human from acting as he sees fit.
5 -- Since only physical force (and by extension, fraud) can prevent a human from acting as he sees fit, it is only the initiation of physical force by humans against other humans which need be addressed.
In a civilized society, the task of addressing this initiation of force is delegated collectively (except in a self-defense emergency where no government agents are available) to the organs of government -- cops, courts, military. Nothing more is needed to protect the rights of individuals -- not hospitals, or fiat currency, or schools, or regulations about who may operate a TV station and what they may show on it.
pinky
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
#1521776 - 05/05/03 12:15 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Alex123 writes:
What if you get a situation as in Bolivia where a large corporation takes over the water supply and drives prices through the roof?
Is this large corporation forcibly preventing people from obtaining water from other sources than the corporation? If so, that corporation is acting illegally and the government must intervene.
Without government, power will simply be exercised by those with the money to buy it.
You confuse me with the anarchists. I have never said there should be no government. I have always said that there MUST be government.
So you are saying national health care has no effect whatsoever on infant mortality rates?
No, I am not saying such a thing.
What if the local corporation builds a factory next to your house and starts dumping toxic waste in your garden?
They are initiating physical force by using my property for their own purposes against my will. The government is obligated to stop them.
pinky
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
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Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1522181 - 05/05/03 03:01 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 writes:
What "objective" and "impartial" body of law are you referring to?
Law based on the objective principle that it is illegal to violate someone's rights. For example, it is an objective fact that if you steal someone's property, you violate his rights. It is the government's obligation to prevent that individual from doing so again, and to return your property to you if possible. Government may not dodge this obligation, it MUST attempt to do this -- it is government's only reason for existing.
The law is impartial in that it applies to all, whether a Bill Gates or a street bum.
So did the government steal my tax dollars when they used them to wage a war in Iraq, to which I was opposed?
Quote:
Prove it.
One need not prove an axiom, but I will expand it a bit for you.
1 Humans are born with the ability to act -- it is an attribute of their nature. No one need grant freedom of action to a human, it is an observable fact that humans act volitionally.
True, but when people enter into a social contract with the government, they give away certain freedoms in exchange for protection.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1522297 - 05/05/03 03:38 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
So did the government steal my tax dollars when they used them to wage a war in Iraq, to which I was opposed?
Yes.
Quote:
True, but when people enter into a social contract with the government, they give away certain freedoms in exchange for protection.
Have you ever entered into any contract with the Federal Government? I haven't.
From Black's Law Dictionary, fifth edition:
Contract. An agreement between two or more persons which creates an obligation to do or not to do a particular thing. Its essentials are competent parties, subject matter, a legal consideration, mutuality of agreement, and mutuality of obligation.
The term 'social contract' is a fiction of political philosophy used to justify the whims of the state, it is the offspring of the equally spurious, 'divine right of kings.'
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1522363 - 05/05/03 04:03 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is this large corporation forcibly preventing people from obtaining water from other sources than the corporation? If so, that corporation is acting illegally and the government must intervene.
You have already stated the government has no power but to law enforcement and defence. Buying water companies and ramping the price up is perfectly legal. Are you now wishing to give the government control over this?
I have always said that there MUST be government.
But only for law enforcement and defence. I repeat, in these situations power will be exercised by those with the money to buy it.
No, I am not saying such a thing
What are you saying?
They are initiating physical force by using my property for their own purposes against my will.
Sorry, but with an argument like that you wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on. Even if you won such a case they would simply stop dumping in your garden and dump just outside your garden. Your house would be impossible to sell either way.
When you hand all power except "law enforcement and defence" away to those with the money to buy it you have to content yourself to slavery.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1522397 - 05/05/03 04:12 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Since only physical force (and by extension, fraud) can prevent a human from acting as he sees fit, it is only the initiation of physical force by humans against other humans which need be addressed.
What exactly do you mean by this? What physical force would a corporation use in buying up all the water companies and forcing the price up 2-300%?
What physical force is involved in dumping oil and industrial waste wherever you want?
What physical force is involved in dumping radioactive waste wherever you want?
The list is endless.
Physical force is the least of our worries. A punch in the face or radioactive waste dumped near your town? Which would you prefer?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
#1522407 - 05/05/03 04:17 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Buying water companies and ramping the price up is perfectly legal. Are you now wishing to give the government control over this?
pinksharkmark:"Is this large corporation forcibly preventing people from obtaining water from other sources than the corporation?"
there's your answer.
I repeat, in these situations power will be exercised by those with the money to buy it.
by power, we're talking about the ability to succesfully employ force. in a system where the only thing the government does is defend individuals from force or fraud, how does one buy power?
Sorry, but with an argument like that you wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on. Even if you won such a case they would simply stop dumping in your garden and dump just outside your garden. Your house would be impossible to sell either way.
it's pretty simple. a group of people illegally victimized you, so they owe you just compensation.
When you hand all power except "law enforcement and defence" away to those with the money to buy it you have to content yourself to slavery.
how does restricting the government to the single purpose of defending individuals from force or fraud "hand all power except 'law enforcement and defence' away to those with the money to buy it"?
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
#1522423 - 05/05/03 04:22 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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What exactly do you mean by this? What physical force would a corporation use in buying up all the water companies and forcing the price up 2-300%?
none at all. this is why this isn't an example of use of force. do you know what rain is?
What physical force is involved in dumping oil and industrial waste wherever you want?
What physical force is involved in dumping radioactive waste wherever you want?
if you dump it on someone else's land without their consent, this is an initiation of force and a violation of their rights. in such a situation, the offending party would be held accountable.
Physical force is the least of our worries. A punch in the face or radioactive waste dumped near your town? Which would you prefer?
if just one person who didn't consent to the dump is hurt by the radioactive waste, the dump was an initiation of force.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1522433 - 05/05/03 04:25 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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do you know what rain is?

if you dump it on someone else's land without their consent
No need to dump it on anyones land - buy the land yourself and dump it there. If it happens to be near your town, tough.
if just one person who didn't consent to the dump is hurt by the radioactive waste, the dump was an initiation of force.
Physical force?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1522472 - 05/05/03 04:33 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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the only problem i see with this is that some things (natural resources) rightfully belong to everyone. if the members of this board suddenly found ourselves stranded on a deserted island, wouldn't the land there belong to each and every one of us? would it even 'belong' to any of us? wouldn't the first person to stake his claim on a piece of land be stealing from the group? maybe there should be some kind of compensation that must be payed for the extraction of raw natural resources from the earth or something... i don't know...
Edited by mushmaster (05/05/03 04:42 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
#1522548 - 05/05/03 05:01 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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i consider poisoning someone to be an initiation of force.
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JohnnyRespect
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1522729 - 05/05/03 06:12 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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If high-school graudates thought more about college and less about having some kids and raising them in a trailer park, maybe we'd be a bit better off. To be honest, with such a HUGE surplus of people on the earth, and the HUGE environmental sideeffects of that, I think that if people can't support themselves... well... thinning of the herd. who would miss all of the welfare bums? Answer.. NOONE  Jr
-------------------- As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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I do not believe we are overpopulated as a planet. Some places are overcrowded, but we have plenty of room for plenty of people.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Quote:
If high-school graudates thought more about college and less about having some kids and raising them in a trailer park, maybe we'd be a bit better off.
If you saw some of the more poor, run-down public High Schools, you'd see how the people who go there are by and large much less prepared for College than High Schools in more affluent areas. It's a system that keeps poor people in their place.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1522765 - 05/05/03 06:23 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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That is why I am all for the voucher system.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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"To be honest, with such a HUGE surplus of people on the earth, and the HUGE environmental sideeffects of that, I think that if people can't support themselves... well... thinning of the herd. who would miss all of the welfare bums? Answer.. NOONE"
you know, it's statements like that which make people think the anti-welfare argument is cruel and lacking compassion. it's not a good thing that some people are poor. it's no good that some people starve. it's a shame.
but it's no excuse for theft, especially not at the hands of the organization which is supposed to be protecting us.
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1522778 - 05/05/03 06:27 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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That is why I am all for the voucher system. i'm not. why should my income be robbed from me to pay for someone else's tuition (even my own for that matter)?
Edited by mushmaster (05/05/03 06:31 PM)
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1522780 - 05/05/03 06:28 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
That is why I am all for the voucher system.
me too.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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z@z.com
Libertarian
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Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1522781 - 05/05/03 06:28 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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I am with you on that, but I think it is at least a step in the right direction. Ultimately I am undecided on what should be done with education.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1522908 - 05/05/03 07:06 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
I just dont think thats feasible at all. Where do you find jobs out in the country? Relocation would never be accepted among the people. Also i dont think houses would stay cheap for very long if people were living there. It seems like it would just create ghettos in the country, where law is thin and and public services couldnt acomodate.
There are plenty of jobs in rural areas. Moreso than in many urban areas. There is also alot more rural area than urban. Plenty of room for everyone.
Some areas of the country are just more economically depressed than others. If you can't afford to live where you live, then go live somewhere within your budget.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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falcon


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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1523312 - 05/05/03 09:25 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
That's it, that's all -- cops, courts, and military. Anything else -- and I mean ANYTHING else -- that government involves itself in is an abrogation of power to which it is not entitled. It follows than any revenue the government collects to fund anything other than cops, courts, and military is stolen revenue.
No public roads? Public schools? No state, national, county, community parks? No fire department? Sewage? FDA? No patent office? No FCC? No NASA? Health department? No national currency?
I think the institutions you have outlined as essential would grow to fill the functions of the institutions that you think are an abrogation of power by expanding the definition of public safety. You know the cops are going to get tired of running an ambulance service on private toll roads.
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JohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: falcon]
#1523373 - 05/05/03 10:10 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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It is a shame that people starve in America, or anywhere in the world. I believe a two-front "war" must be waged on hunger. First, a program of "work for the government" would be initiated so that welfare recipients can become actual employees of the government. They are already recieving money and medical coverage from the state, why not have them work some? Their are numerous things we could get these welfare recipients to do (shoveling snow for elderly people, roadside cleanup, babysitting OTHER welfare recipients children so their parents can look for a job / attend school). It wouldn't really matter what they did, we could have them building public parks for people to enjoy, we might as well get SOME return on our giving they monthly stipends and medical assistance.
Secondly, we need to engage in a humane form of population control. I think the best method of this is voluntary contraception. With contraception and E D U C A T I O N, we can, hopefully, tied the huge wave of numbers of humans. This trimming of the surplus (in an ethical way) would deal with the cause of human hunger.
Just some thoughts while i'm really stoned Hope ya enjoy, and I hope I'm on-topic somewhat 
JR
-------------------- As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: falcon]
#1523442 - 05/05/03 11:03 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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No public roads?No fire department? Sewage? Health department?
utilities, infrastructure, healthcare, fire\rescue, and education are all things which can and should be left to the private sector.
FDA?
this one there is a case for. selling dangerous or ineffective drugs falls under the force\fraud idea.
No patent office?
i think it's ok for the government to handle copyrights and patents. it prevents the 'theft' of inventions or intellectual property.
No FCC?
no, no FCC.
No NASA?
no NASA either.
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 595
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1523507 - 05/05/03 11:36 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Wow. I really wanted to talk about welfare alternatives, but instead we ended up on the government's role in life. Your point of view, mush, is so extreme its impossible to even visualize, but i must admit it is interesting to hear what you have to say and youre not being uncivil about it so im really enjoying reading this. I must admit simply though, that I enjoy what the government provides for me and i have no problem paying my dues also. I enjoy the fact that i dont have to worry about protecting my property or checking the cleanliness of my water or the quality of my meat so that i may focus on other aspects of my life. In the case of most people it leads to nothing, but overall i believe allowing the government to control certain aspects of life allow citizens greatly succeed in other, much more important things. Like research and technology. Making everything private would also lead to larger gaps between classes and in my opinion that is not what i want to see happen. Whether they do or not i believe everyone who is part of this country should be given the chance to succeed whether it be only public education or full welfare payments.
Edited by CultyVader (05/05/03 11:37 PM)
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1523545 - 05/05/03 11:57 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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utilities, infrastructure, healthcare, fire\rescue, and education are all things which can and should be left to the private sector.
And if there's no profit in providing health-care etc for the poor?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
#1523550 - 05/06/03 12:00 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Then the "poor" will have to rely on nonprofit/religious orginizations to help them out. That or plan for the future and get insurance.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1523576 - 05/06/03 12:08 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is this large corporation forcibly preventing people from obtaining water from other sources than the corporation?" there's your answer
This is a joke right?
er...what if you live in a place where it doesn't rain very often?
it's pretty simple. a group of people illegally victimized you, so they owe you just compensation.
So now we're moving on from "physical force" to protecting you from being "illegally victimised". Sorry, but which is it to be? The corporation hasn't laid a finger on you. Absolutely no physical force. You might live your entire life in perfect health and your grandson die at 25 from leukemia. Are you seriously going to go to court and say "My grandson had physical force committed on him...by a corporate director who wasn't even alive when he was born..."
It's not going to work is it. You seem to be desperately trying to avoid this but Pink stated quite clearly "PHYSICAL FORCE".
how does restricting the government to the single purpose of defending individuals from force or fraud "hand all power except 'law enforcement and defence' away to those with the money to buy it"?
By removing all possibility of control on people with lots of money. What if business got together and said "We're tired of the minimum wage, we want slave labour". What do you do then?
Stop working and move to another country where it rains a lot and there's a minimum wage i suppose...
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1523583 - 05/06/03 12:11 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Then the "poor" will have to rely on nonprofit/religious orginizations to help them out. That or plan for the future and get insurance.
And if the non-profit/religious organisations don't have enough money to help everyone?
Or if the religious organisations want to force religion down your throat before they'll help you? Or refuse to help people who won't conform to their religion?
It sounds like a nightmare.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
#1523586 - 05/06/03 12:14 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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It sounds like a better solution than taking the money from those who work hard to earn it to redistribute it to those who do not. Give me one good reason that I should be forced to give them money?
I won't argue this too much with you because I recognize that you and I will never see eye to eye on this.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Skikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
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Quote:
It is a shame that people starve in America, or anywhere in the world. I believe a two-front "war" must be waged on hunger. First, a program of "work for the government" would be initiated so that welfare recipients can become actual employees of the government. They are already recieving money and medical coverage from the state, why not have them work some? Their are numerous things we could get these welfare recipients to do (shoveling snow for elderly people, roadside cleanup, babysitting OTHER welfare recipients children so their parents can look for a job / attend school). It wouldn't really matter what they did, we could have them building public parks for people to enjoy, we might as well get SOME return on our giving they monthly stipends and medical assistance.
Secondly, we need to engage in a humane form of population control. I think the best method of this is voluntary contraception. With contraception and E D U C A T I O N, we can, hopefully, tied the huge wave of numbers of humans. This trimming of the surplus (in an ethical way) would deal with the cause of human hunger.
Just some thoughts while i'm really stoned Hope ya enjoy, and I hope I'm on-topic somewhat 
JR
Wow man, that's actually a pretty good post, I never thought I'd say so, but I agree with most of your points.
-------------------- Re-Defeat Bush in '04
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Skikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
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Loc: In the middle of the nort...
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1523689 - 05/06/03 01:28 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
utilities, infrastructure, healthcare, fire\rescue, and education are all things which can and should be left to the private sector.
Would there be standards to this private sector. For instance, would there be regulations in healthcare, or would it be complete lassie-faire? If their are regulations, who would enforce them, wouldn't their have to be organizations to accomplish compliance within the private sector? And if it isn't regulated, how do you propose to keep large companies from becoming monopolies? It just seems like reducing the amount of government agencies and programs will just lead to massive increases in the size of remaining agencies and programs. Same monster, different name.
-------------------- Re-Defeat Bush in '04
Edited by Skikid16 (05/06/03 01:30 AM)
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I_Fart_Blue
Stranger

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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Skikid16]
#1523736 - 05/06/03 02:14 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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I figured some of you may find this interesting so I thought I would share (Sorry to Quick Reply you Skikid )
 This is a set of Lorenz curves for the Unites States for 2001-1971 in 5 year incriments and 1967. A Lorenz curve is a graphic distribution of income. As you can see, the cyan line represents perfect income equality. The more bowed a curve is, the greater the income inequality.
Some notes: The LC measures pretax money; it does not measure underground earnings; it does not account for age differences; it does not take into account income in kind (income received in the form of goods in services as opposed to money income); it does not take into account family size and effort.
This doesn't pertain to anything in particular here, but I thought it was some interesting information nonetheless. I was looking for some current Lorenz curves tonight for myself and could not find any, so what the hell, I decided to make some.
The data, which may be obtained here only went back to 67, so thats the reason for the 4 year incriment from 67-71.
-------------------- "A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes
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JohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
#1523936 - 05/06/03 07:05 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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I do agree with Z@Z however, why should my hardearned money go to fund some fat welfare momma living in skid row? Nothing I love more than being in line at a grocery store, seeing the obese sweatpant wearing pig in front of me use her "food stamps" for food, and then get 2 c artons of Newports, while holding her cell phone. It's nice to know that "FICA" line on my paycheck represents them.
-------------------- As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1523995 - 05/06/03 07:44 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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CultyVader writes:
Wow. I really wanted to talk about welfare alternatives, but instead we ended up on the government's role in life.
That is how it should be. Nothing can ever be decided properly by looking at specific examples while ignoring the underlying fundamental principles involved. It is unfortunate the current educational system in America (yes, even including University education) teaches so little of this kind of analysis.
Your point of view, mush, is so extreme its impossible to even visualize...
Once again, a crushing indictment of the American educational system. That a high school graduate can say such a thing and honestly mean it boggles the mind --
"...it is impossible to even visualize..."
This from someone educated in America, home of the Founding Fathers, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights.
*shakes head sorrowfully*
pinky
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1524143 - 05/06/03 09:50 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Your point of view, mush, is so extreme its impossible to even visualize...
Once again, a crushing indictment of the American educational system. That a high school graduate can say such a thing and honestly mean it boggles the mind --
Considering that there has never, EVER been a Libertarian government, I would say that it's easy to see why such views could be considered extreme.
Quote:
"...it is impossible to even visualize..."
This from someone educated in America, home of the Founding Fathers, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights.
*shakes head sorrowfully*
America has had federal taxes since the signing of the Constitution, and had state and local taxes before that. If you can name even one sovereign nation that didn't have taxes, my hat goes off to you.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
#1524163 - 05/06/03 10:08 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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firing someone you employ (when not in violation of a contract), while it may hurt them, is not an initiation of force or fraud. evicting someone who hasn't paid rent from the apartment building you own is not an initiation of force. dumping your girlfriend is not an initiation of force. it is possible to 'hurt' someone without initiating force or fraud. when you violate someone's rights, against their will, this is an initiation of force. stealing from someone is a force\fraud situation. so it raping someone. so is poisoning someone. or trespassing on their property. or murdering them. hope that clears things up a little.
Edited by mushmaster (05/06/03 10:16 AM)
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1524182 - 05/06/03 10:17 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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silversoul7 writes:
America has had federal taxes since the signing of the Constitution...
What were the taxes for? Not for health care or welfare or schools or FCC or NASA or EPA or the War on Drugs. The extremely small taxes (NOT income tax, remember) raised mostly through tariffs paid for the legitimate functions of government -- cops, courts, and military.
It's not that CultyVader is having a hard time grasping a country with no taxes, it's that he doesn't even realize that up until about a hundred years ago, people looked after all these things and more by themselves, rather than perceiving government as a combination nanny/Santa Claus.
That is the fault of the American educational system.
pinky
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1524190 - 05/06/03 10:20 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 writes:
America has had federal taxes since the signing of the Constitution...
What were the taxes for? Not for health care or welfare or schools or FCC or NASA or EPA or the War on Drugs. The extremely small taxes (NOT income tax, remember) raised mostly through tariffs paid for the legitimate functions of government -- cops, courts, and military.
It's not that CultyVader is having a hard time grasping a country with no taxes, it's that he doesn't even realize that up until about a hundred years ago, people looked after all these things and more by themselves, rather than perceiving government as a combination nanny/Santa Claus.
That is the fault of the American educational system.
For a good look at what poverty looked like before welfare, I suggest reading some Dickens.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1524192 - 05/06/03 10:22 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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i was tought in economics class in the public high school i attended that laissez faire capitalism was impossible, had been a total failure, and that the government had to involve itself in the market, and quite substantially.
Edited by mushmaster (05/06/03 01:21 PM)
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1524199 - 05/06/03 10:24 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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silversoul7 writes:
For a good look at what poverty looked like before welfare, I suggest reading some Dickens.
I have read Dickens. He was an excellent writer of fiction; a truly great novelist. What's your point?
pinky
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


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Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1524202 - 05/06/03 10:25 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
i was tought in economics class in the public high school i attended that laissez faire capitalism was impossible, had been a total failure, and that the government had to involve itself in the market, and quite substantially.
That's interesting. I thought laissez faire capitalism had been practiced before, but that corporations got out of hand and children worked in horrendous conditions.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1524208 - 05/06/03 10:26 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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mushmaster writes:
i was tought in economics class in the public high school i attended that laissez faire capitalism was impossible, had been a total failure, and that the government had to involve itself in the market, and quite substantially.
I rest my case.
Kudos to you for your ability to recognize bullshit when you hear it.
pinky
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1524215 - 05/06/03 10:29 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 writes:
For a good look at what poverty looked like before welfare, I suggest reading some Dickens.
I have read Dickens. He was an excellent writer of fiction; a truly great novelist. What's your point?
His novels, based on the conditions of his time, paint a very dark image of inescapable poverty which is much more harsh and unbearable than what today's lower class experiences. One of the main reasons that I am in favor of social programs is so that we do not have that happen again.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1524220 - 05/06/03 10:32 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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well i certainly didn't recognize it at the time.
we were taught that when the market was down (and unemployment up), the government had to 'pump money' into it via tax cuts and a reduced fed rate to get it back up again, and when inflation was high, had to discourage spending by a higher fed rate or higher taxes.
it makes sense. why is this wrong?
also, what does a laissez faire system do about currency?
and what about the Earth? can anyone really claim ownership of raw natural resources?
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1524230 - 05/06/03 10:36 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
and what about the Earth? can anyone really claim ownership of raw natural resources?
I agree to some extent. However, if the government can't claim ownership, then neither can corporations.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1524244 - 05/06/03 10:42 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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mushmaster writes:
well i certainly didn't recognize it at the time.
Then even more kudos to you for being able to shake off the brainwashing.
we were taught that when the market was down (and unemployment up), the government had to 'pump money' into it via tax cuts and a reduced fed rate to get it back up again, and when inflation was high, had to discourage spending by a higher fed rate or higher taxes.
Typical Keynesian claptrap. The government doesn't have to do any such thing. Long before governments held the power over the economy that they do today, there were "boom and bust" cycles. The key word here is "cycles". Government's attempts to ameliorate these unavoidable cycles does nothing but present false information as to what is really going on. The market cannot operate properly without accurate information -- this is the major reason why Communist economies invariably suck so badly. In many cases, the unintended consequences of such intervention is worse than doing nothing at all -- see The Great Depression.
also, what does a laissez faire system do about currency?
People use whatever currency they feel most comfortable with -- usually gold and silver.
can anyone really claim ownership of raw natural resources?
Yes.
pinky
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1524251 - 05/06/03 10:46 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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silversoul7 writes:
One of the main reasons that I am in favor of social programs is so that we do not have that happen again.
So your justification for forcible mass violation of individual rights is to avoid the convulsions that occurred at the dawn of the Industrial Age? Interesting.
pinky
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1524274 - 05/06/03 10:54 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 writes:
One of the main reasons that I am in favor of social programs is so that we do not have that happen again.
So your justification for forcible mass violation of individual rights is to avoid the convulsions that occurred at the dawn of the Industrial Age? Interesting.
I know it's not the best system. But until someone comes up with a better system, I'd rather hold on to the one we have than just let people starve. Also, notice I said "social programs" rather than welfare. I don't think these people should get a paycheck as long as they are provided with adequate food, shelter, clothing, and basic health care.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1524275 - 05/06/03 10:54 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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"can anyone really claim ownership of raw natural resources?
Yes."
first come first serve?
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1524280 - 05/06/03 10:55 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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considering the HUGE amount of money stolen each year from some people who earned to give to some people who didn't, i don't think the poor are much better off for it.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1524284 - 05/06/03 10:57 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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mushmaster writes:
first come first serve?
Pretty much, yeah. You might want to check into how gold claims were handled back in the gold rush days as a primer on the concept.
pinky
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1524287 - 05/06/03 10:58 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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How about this: instead of using income tax, what about paying for these social programs with sales tax? Then it would be taken out of money you spend, rather than money you earn.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1524295 - 05/06/03 11:01 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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well... the money i spend is typically money i earned somewhere along the way.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1524298 - 05/06/03 11:01 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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True, but you CHOOSE to spend it, rather than having it "forcefully extorted" out of you.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1524302 - 05/06/03 11:04 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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silversoul7 writes:
I know it's not the best system.
Well, at least we agree on something, then.
But until someone comes up with a better system, I'd rather hold on to the one we have than just let people starve.
See, the point where your "rather" and my rights come into conflict is right there. Any time a "rather" trumps a right is a time when freedom is destroyed.
As a side point, do you honestly believe that if there were no such thing as welfare the streets of America would be littered with the corpses of those who had died from starvation?
Also, notice I said "social programs" rather than welfare.
No difference. All such programs require the forcible mass violation of individual rights in order to exist. C'est tout la meme chose.
I don't think these people should get a paycheck as long as they are provided with adequate food, shelter, clothing, and basic health care.
Food, shelter, clothing and basic health care stolen from whom?
pinky
--------------------
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silversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1524308 - 05/06/03 11:08 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
As a side point, do you honestly believe that if there were no such thing as welfare the streets of America would be littered with the corpses of those who had died from starvation?
I believe it would be a lot like England in Dickens' novels. People will do what is necessary to survive, so most wouldn't necessarily die, but many would turn to theft as a means for getting food.
Quote:
I don't think these people should get a paycheck as long as they are provided with adequate food, shelter, clothing, and basic health care.
Food, shelter, clothing and basic health care stolen from whom?
Read my posts above about sales tax.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Phred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1524320 - 05/06/03 11:13 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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silversoul7 writes:
Read my posts above about sales tax.
Tax is tax. Taxes may be levied only to finance the legitimate functions of government, and even then only when all other means of raising revenue have been exhausted.
pinky
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1524323 - 05/06/03 11:14 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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what is money for? if i'm not gonna spend it, what the point of having it? money is there to be spent.
taking money away from me every time i spend a little of it is still stealing from me.
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silversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1524334 - 05/06/03 11:19 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 writes:
Read my posts above about sales tax.
Tax is tax. Taxes may be levied only to finance the legitimate functions of government, and even then only when all other means of raising revenue have been exhausted.
I personally consider providing for the welfare of the people to be a legitimate function of the government. How that is done is debatable.
"The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts, and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."--Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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silversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1524338 - 05/06/03 11:22 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
what is money for? if i'm not gonna spend it, what the point of having it? money is there to be spent.
taking money away from me every time i spend a little of it is still stealing from me.
This is just a matter of where the money goes. You purchase an item knowing how much it will cost and how much sales tax it will be. You don't decide where the money goes. This is true with or without the sales tax. Every time you buy a soft drink, you are inadvertently providing a campaign contribution to the Democratic and/or Republican party.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1524349 - 05/06/03 11:27 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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This is just a matter of where the money goes. You purchase an item knowing how much it will cost and how much sales tax it will be. You don't decide where the money goes. This is true with or without the sales tax. Every time you buy a soft drink, you are inadvertently providing a campaign contribution to the Democratic and/or Republican party.
yes, but until a sales tax is imposed, all of this is voluntary. sales taxes aren't so much taken away from the money i spend buying things but the money someone else earns selling something. it's really a tax on them, not me. and it's not voluntary.
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silversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1524366 - 05/06/03 11:34 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
This is just a matter of where the money goes. You purchase an item knowing how much it will cost and how much sales tax it will be. You don't decide where the money goes. This is true with or without the sales tax. Every time you buy a soft drink, you are inadvertently providing a campaign contribution to the Democratic and/or Republican party.
yes, but until a sales tax is imposed, all of this is voluntary. sales taxes aren't so much taken away from the money i spend buying things but the money someone else earns selling something. it's really a tax on them, not me. and it's not voluntary.
Who says everything has to be voluntary? The police can't make criminals voluntarily go to prison. Besides, a person selling something voluntarily goes into that business.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1524498 - 05/06/03 12:33 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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"The police can't make criminals voluntarily go to prison."
let us be clear that government = force. that's essentially all a government is. force. all governmental policies are backed up by the threat of force. the only reason force should ever be applied is to counter force iniated against innocent people. in the example you just gave, that's exactly what the government is doing.
Besides, a person selling something voluntarily goes into that business.
when someone opens a business, they are acting as they see fit. their actions do not initiate force or fraud against other individuals. opening a business is therefore a RIGHT. you should not face penalties for excercising a right.
i voluntarily choose to go on living each day. i shouldn't be subjected to a tax for doing so.
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Xlea321
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1524545 - 05/06/03 12:52 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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let us be clear that government = force. that's essentially all a government is. force
It's obviously a damn sight more than that. Providing health care for people who would otherwise be dying on the street isn't what I'd call "force".
But certainly to prevent large multi-billion dollar corporations laying waste to the environment, re-introducing child labour and ruining the quality of life for millions of people some degree of power is required.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
#1524580 - 05/06/03 01:07 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's obviously a damn sight more than that. Providing health care for people who would otherwise be dying on the street isn't what I'd call "force".
no government provides healthcare. some governments provide money (tax money = taken from someone under threat of force) for healthcare.
But certainly to prevent large multi-billion dollar corporations laying waste to the environment, re-introducing child labour and ruining the quality of life for millions of people some degree of power is required.
whether the poisoning of the environment is done by some guy draining his car's oil in his backyard, or a huge corporation, it is government's job to stop this.
child labor is an interesting topic... i think that until someone's an adult, they shouldn't be able to enter into contracts like that. in general, children shouldn't be put to work.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1524609 - 05/06/03 01:21 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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How about this as an idea. We form a consumer's union called "America" If people wish to have access to our market then they must agree to pay duties in the form of a percentage of their proffits that they gain from selling products and services to our members.
If they do not wish to do business with us that way, then they are free to take their business elsewhere. 
They can become tycoons on the island of Yap, and collect all the really big stone coins.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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silversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1524618 - 05/06/03 01:24 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
How about this as an idea. We form a consumer's union called "America" If people wish to have access to our market then they must agree to pay duties in the form of a percentage of their proffits that they gain from selling products and services to our members.
If they do not wish to do business with us that way, then they are free to take their business elsewhere. 
They can become tycoons on the island of Yap, and collect all the really big stone coins.
Sounds like a plan to me.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Xlea321
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1524631 - 05/06/03 01:31 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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whether the poisoning of the environment is done by some guy draining his car's oil in his backyard, or a huge corporation, it is government's job to stop this.
Pink said governments only duty was to prevent physical force between citizens and national defence. Is protecting the environment now included too?
child labor is an interesting topic... i think that until someone's an adult, they shouldn't be able to enter into contracts like that. in general, children shouldn't be put to work.
Everywhere the government is weak and corrupt enough to be bought off children will be used by corporations as slave labour.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
#1524719 - 05/06/03 02:05 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Pink said governments only duty was to prevent physical force between citizens and national defence. Is protecting the environment now included too?
by physical force, what is meant is violation of your rights, which most often does mean having your body or property physically violated. however, it is not limited to this. instead of 'physical force' it might be a little more accurate to say, 'violations of rights'.
you are a lifeform here on Earth and have a right to a clean planet. if someone poisons the planet we all live on and share, this is a violation of everyone's right. short answer: yes.
Everywhere the government is weak and corrupt enough to be bought off children will be used by corporations as slave labour.
this is true, which is why the government's role in protecting people's rights must be carefully and explicitly defined in it's charter or constitution.
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Xlea321
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1525069 - 05/06/03 04:00 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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by physical force, what is meant is violation of your rights
If you say so. However Pink said quite specifically:
Since only physical force (and by extension, fraud) can prevent a human from acting as he sees fit, it is only the initiation of physical force by humans against other humans which need be addressed.
If you are now saying "physical force" actually means the government should be responsible for "all violations of human rights" then I agree.
this is true, which is why the government's role in protecting people's rights must be carefully and explicitly defined in it's charter or constitution.
So as well as the government being responsible for protecting the environment it is also responsible for working conditions. Fair enough.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
#1525104 - 05/06/03 04:18 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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when a person (or group) pollutes the environment, they are infringing on our right to inhabit a clean Earth. as living parts of the ecosystem, i think that we are born with a right to a clean planet. also, they are hurting the planet. i think that if the rights of human beings come second to anything, it's to the welfare of Earth and the ecosystem. If you are now saying "physical force" actually means the government should be responsible for "all violations of human rights" then I agree. that is what i'm saying. i think you and i may have a different definition of 'human rights' though. So as well as the government being responsible for protecting the environment it is also responsible for working conditions. Fair enough. safety and child labor regulations, yes, but no regulation of wages or hours.
Edited by mushmaster (05/06/03 04:54 PM)
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Phred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1525199 - 05/06/03 05:08 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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mushmaster writes:
when a person (or group) pollutes the environment, they are infringing on our right to inhabit a clean Earth. as living parts of the ecosystem, i think that we are born with a right to a clean planet.
You have no "right" to inhabit a "clean" Earth. No matter how careful humans are, their very act of living creates pollution. Man cannot exist without fire, and fire pollutes. Natural phenomena "pollute" as well. The eruption of Mount Pinatubo a decade or so dumped more crap into the atmosphere than all of mankind's activities combined do in a year.
The act of clearing virgin forest to plant crops alters the ecosystem. The act of diverting water sources to irrigate the crops alters the ecosystem. The act of vaccinating against disease and controlling various mosquitoes and parasites alters the ecosystem.
pinky
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1525209 - 05/06/03 05:13 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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What if someone's act damages you or your property?
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1525256 - 05/06/03 05:30 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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yeah, good points... but depending on the circumstances, i'd say that in most cases, if someone's pollution spills over to my body or my property, that's a crime.
Edited by mushmaster (05/06/03 05:30 PM)
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Phred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1525514 - 05/06/03 07:11 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Baby_Hitler writes:
What if someone's act damages you or your property?
Then that someone has violated your rights.
pinky
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Phred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1525536 - 05/06/03 07:19 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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mushmaster writes:
...but depending on the circumstances, i'd say that in most cases, if someone's pollution spills over to my body or my property, that's a crime.
Indeed it is. The key word here is "property". Your body is of course also your property.
It is of course possible that the act of polluting affects a number of properties -- for example a factory dumping toxic effluent into a river which feeds the property of many others downstream, or pours cyanide gas or something into the air upwind of the property of others. In either case, that factory is clearly violating the rights of those affected.
However, someone lighting a campfire is not.
pinky
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1525568 - 05/06/03 07:32 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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What about "public property" e.g. parks, and National Forrests?
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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Xlea321
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1526435 - 05/07/03 12:05 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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In either case, that factory is clearly violating the rights of those affected.
So you now believe the government should be responsible for protecting the environment as well as "physical force" between individuals? Is there anything else you think the government should be responsible for?
What if the pollution isn't a clear-cut case whether it's damaging anyone or not? Without government enforced pollution rules to protect them do you think the average householder would have much luck in taking a multi-billion dollar corporation to court?
What if the corporations destroy the rain forest in another country? Does the government have the right to control these corporations even tho no-ones "property" is being affected? Or do we simply leave the corporations to destroy the rain forest?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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